General Exalted Discussion Thread XI: Great Job, You Broke the Scale.

[Story Time]

What level of necromancy do you think that would be a sufficient sacrifice for?

Very funny.

Honestly, if one of my Players managed to do some-thing like that my first thought would be a legion of Wyld Folk arriving to pledge their Eternal Hearts to the character who succeeded at it.

That may not be the best choice, though.

[Exthalion]

As a state of non-existence, Oblivion currently only "exists" as a contrast. An Abyssal tour guide can currently say "And if you look out the left side of the Labyrinth Tour Bus now, you can see Oblivion", but after it eats everything, nonexistence is nonexistence.

Tell that to Nirguna.

[omegalith]

Is Dreams of the First Age particularly interesting?

[Exthalion]

Is Dreams of the First Age particularly interesting?

Depends. Prior to errata half the fans swore it was the end of the line. (Zeal). Cruch aside, it has some interesting takes on what life in a Celestial governed world might be like. Crime for example isn't a problem. It is a carefully controlled outlet for social frustration.

A lot of people dislike it for giving definitive answers to the First Age. The developers are among this group.

[Drascin]

Is Dreams of the First Age particularly interesting?

Not really, no.

[Lord Raziere]

Canon Exalted has a bit more of an "nearly everyone is horrible" tone, compared to Keychain being a little more lighthearted.

I'd probably run a game closer to Keychain's tone though.

Yea, I would too. there is actually a good chunk of people who prefer how Keychain portrayed Exalted to how it usually is, so your not alone.

as for Dreams of the First Age….well…..the developers have declared that Not Canon, and most of the fanbase thinks it makes the First Age look boring and too overly detailed, so not a lot going for it.

but then again, these are all the same people who want more mystery in Exalted, so I'm not trusting them to be unbiased. I personally didn't find it that bad, it just focused on the peaceful utopian Age of Dreams rather than the all the interesting parts of the First Age where stuff actually happened.

[omegalith]

A lot of people dislike it for giving definitive answers to the First Age. The developers are among this group.

That's okay, I don't really get that mindset anyhow.

People rewrite the setting for Tabletop RPGs constantly and massively, so having a default answer to pretty much any given answer can be pretty handy.

Of course, I'm generally in the "Statting the Lady of Pain up could only be a good thing presuming it's done sensibly" camp for this sort of thing, so I'm probably in a minority.

[omegalith]

I'm leaning towards Dreams not being interesting enough to purchase, by the way. I was just checking if anyone would convince me otherwise if I asked.

As for my opinion on Mystery: Good when actually running a game, not as good when populating the setting in the first place. *Shrug*

[Turalisj]

Is Dreams of the First Age particularly interesting?

Nope. I would rather write up my own version of the First Age.

[Xefas]

My single problem with the idea of playing an entire game in the First Age is that - who exactly are you going to play as that are even remotely capable of challenging even the more minor antagonists? An Akuma? Third Circle Demon? Infernal Behemoth?

What kind of stories are these heroes going to tell that doesn't end with "...and then you tried valiantly to reclaim some small worthless spec of your former homeland, but the Solars were having none of that, and powered up the Antilife Soul-Rape Murder-Cannon Arrays on their Mobile Oppression Doomsday Fortress and turned you and all of your loyal employees and underlings into a fine mist that will know nothing but suffering for all time."?

[The_Snark]

My single problem with the idea of playing an entire game in the First Age is that - who exactly are you going to play as that are even remotely capable of challenging even the more minor antagonists? An Akuma? Third Circle Demon? Infernal Behemoth?

What kind of stories are these heroes going to tell that doesn't end with "...and then you tried valiantly to reclaim some small worthless spec of your former homeland, but the Solars were having none of that, and powered up the Antilife Soul-Rape Murder-Cannon Arrays on their Mobile Oppression Doomsday Fortress and turned you and all of your loyal employees and underlings into a fine mist that will know nothing but suffering for all time."?

I once played a First Age game that was set shortly before the Usurpation; it was centered around Dragon-Blooded and mortals (the latter of which would eventually Exalt as a celestial of some sort during play). It didn't play much like your regular game of Exalted—less epic adventure, more daily life and political maneuvering—but I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing.

So yeah. Speaking as one of the few people (apparently) who's gotten some use out of their copy of Dreams of the First Age, I'd say I like it OK. Whether it's worth the money will vary from person to person, of course—as Exalted books go, it won't apply to the vast majority of games—but I had fun with it. If the concept doesn't instantly grab you, and you're not planning on playing/running a game in the Age of Dreams...? Probably not worth it. It's not on par with the Compass: Malfeas and Autochthonia books in terms of being a cool place to read about.

[Exthalion]

My single problem with the idea of playing an entire game in the First Age is that - who exactly are you going to play as that are even remotely capable of challenging even the more minor antagonists? An Akuma? Third Circle Demon? Infernal Behemoth?

What kind of stories are these heroes going to tell that doesn't end with "...and then you tried valiantly to reclaim some small worthless spec of your former homeland, but the Solars were having none of that, and powered up the Antilife Soul-Rape Murder-Cannon Arrays on their Mobile Oppression Doomsday Fortress and turned you and all of your loyal employees and underlings into a fine mist that will know nothing but suffering for all time."?

Easy, when they activate the ASRMCAs on their MODF you exalt and perfect parry the thing. Those were the days where the only people that mattered were the Exalted. Mortals had so many social charms and destinies stacked on top of them that they almost were chess pieces. Demons and gods who hadn't learned their place were surrounded by peers who did. If Ligier opened a Gate of Auspicious Passage to Creation that any demon could freely use he wouldn't have turned it on. Walking an arbitrarily large army into Creation just gives the Deliberative more reasons to build even bigger killsticks and gives the Dawns something besides mortals and unshaped to smite when they get board.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Walking an arbitrarily large army into Creation just gives the Deliberative more reasons to build even bigger killsticks and gives the Dawns something besides mortals and unshaped to smite when they get board.

You mean that the Dawns decide to just fight with boards to make things a bit harder?

[Qwertystop]

You mean that the Dawns decide to just fight with boards to make things a bit harder?

Honestly? It wouldn't. They might, but it really wouldn't.

[Exthalion]

It might make it more interesting if they limited themselves to SHS with boards. They would have to be bored first of course.

[golentan]

My single problem with the idea of playing an entire game in the First Age is that - who exactly are you going to play as that are even remotely capable of challenging even the more minor antagonists? An Akuma? Third Circle Demon? Infernal Behemoth?

What kind of stories are these heroes going to tell that doesn't end with "...and then you tried valiantly to reclaim some small worthless spec of your former homeland, but the Solars were having none of that, and powered up the Antilife Soul-Rape Murder-Cannon Arrays on their Mobile Oppression Doomsday Fortress and turned you and all of your loyal employees and underlings into a fine mist that will know nothing but suffering for all time."?

Actually, as I understand it the big source of conflict within first age game is exalt vs. exalt. The Deliberative was this odd cross between Congress and the United Nations: Individual Solars ruled their own kingdoms and could use war and political maneuvering against neighboring solar kingdoms, but the deliberative existed to govern the limits of that and also to present a unified force for the defense of creation. Meru and the Blessed Isle were purely deliberative territory, threshold was almost entirely deliberatively affiliated, but out beyond the threshold it was often a patchwork of "deliberative/deliberative affiliated/independent nations." Also, if a rebellion sprung up there was always the possibility for the leader of the rebellion to exalt.

So you've got this massive organization ready and willing to curb stomp you if you don't play by its rules, but those rules aren't particularly geared towards effectively preventing conflict on a scale below nuclear war.

Personally, I'd like more information on the Shogunate. It seems to me to be the ideal time to run a dragonblooded game, in that there's still enough infrastructure to give provide the massive assortment of wonders and powers often associated with the first age (for example, power armor from wonders of the lost age is assumed to be Shogunate era, and gives rules for "upgrading" it to high first age standards), while having both increased fractiousness and hundreds of thousands of dragonbloods to hold some truly complicated and high powered political maneuvering and wars.

[Exthalion]

Actually, as I understand it the big source of conflict within first age game is exalt vs. exalt. The Deliberative was this odd cross between Congress and the United Nations: Individual Solars ruled their own kingdoms and could use war and political maneuvering against neighboring solar kingdoms, but the deliberative existed to govern the limits of that and also to present a unified force for the defense of creation. Meru and the Blessed Isle were purely deliberative territory, threshold was almost entirely deliberatively affiliated, but out beyond the threshold it was often a patchwork of "deliberative/deliberative affiliated/independent nations." Also, if a rebellion sprung up there was always the possibility for the leader of the rebellion to exalt.

So you've got this massive organization ready and willing to curb stomp you if you don't play by its rules, but those rules aren't particularly geared towards effectively preventing conflict on a scale below nuclear war.

Personally, I'd like more information on the Shogunate. It seems to me to be the ideal time to run a dragonblooded game, in that there's still enough infrastructure to give provide the massive assortment of wonders and powers often associated with the first age (for example, power armor from wonders of the lost age is assumed to be Shogunate era, and gives rules for "upgrading" it to high first age standards), while having both increased fractiousness and hundreds of thousands of dragonbloods to hold some truly complicated and high powered political maneuvering and wars.

The problem I see with the Shogunate is that even more then the High First Age we know where it is going. You can't accomplish anything too meaningful because it will not be enough when the Contagion and Balorian Crusade come around.

So it would be great for a Romance of the Three Kingdoms style endless war sort of game (which I would totally play in a heartbeat) but not for any sort of"

"And then the General established himself as Shogun. He Constrained the hundred gens into acceptance of peace and established justice for mortal and mighty alike. At his direction the hundred gens sent forth their great craftsmen and the whole of the land was enriched by their labor so that there was prosperity and felicity in all the Realm.

When the Shogun had lived nine hundred years he died and his son became Shogun after him."

Even assuming you could set up the first in more then just name it will inevitably crumble long before you die of old age. A certain sort of accomplishment just isn't possible.

[Lord Raziere]

um, no thats really a wrong way to think about Exalted- its more like, if you run a Shogunate game setting out to change things, history will diverge into a parallel universe where maybe things gone better and such if you work at it

after all, the entire point of the game is to surpass the NPC's you read about in the books. changing history so that the Shogunate survives, recovers from the Contagion and maybe even surpasses what it was before? definitely one of those accomplishments.

just like a First Age game could be about how you save the Solar Deliberative from being killed and making the Gold Faction plan work would definitely be an accomplishment worth shooting for to. I mean whoever said that history was on some iron railroad tracks to the Age of Sorrows? make your own history and do things better than canon.

[golentan]

Yeah. If you are exalted, sometimes you just have to tell fate, samsara, or whatever else dares to dictate your destiny to you to sit down, shut up, and watch you accomplish this. I know that in backstory games in general, I never force the outcome to adhere to canon against the actions of the PCs, and that goes doubly or triply so for exalted. If the players can prevent the contagion, a million terrestrial soldiers will stand strong against the balorian crusade, ready to drive back the tides of chaos even in the face of terrible losses and emerge with a strong shogunate intact. The balorian crusade could never have succeeded without the deaths of nine tenths of creations most numerous defenders spreading and weakening the defense so thoroughly. Similarly, preventing the balorian crusade would leave creation with dozens, hundreds of times more dragonblooded in spite of the contagion. It destroyed 90% of all life, but a million terrestrials lived at the end of the low first age. The shogunate might not have survived that, but it would not have been the irrevocable death knell that it was in canon.

[Exthalion]

Then why do you need a setting book? There would never be a Shogunate setting, there would be "The Shogunate era setting in which we blow up history in this particular way." You can do that already without needing a particular book.

[Xefas]

Actually, as I understand it the big source of conflict within first age game is exalt vs. exalt.

I know. I get that. But why would you want to play as one of the Exalted when we don't have Green Sun Princes yet? At that point, the closest things are the things I listed.

That's the joke I'm making.

It was a joke.

[golentan]

Because setting doesn't dictate the actions of the PCs, but the reverse is also true? It's nice to know the setting because then you have a leaping off point and aren't fabricating the entirety from whole cloth. If your logic held, there would be no need for anything other than mechanics because the ST could come up with the whole setting on the fly. But it's nice to have some of the details worked out, to have a common frame of reference for the discussion with other gamers who weren't involved in your particular game.

[Andreaz]

Then why do you need a setting book? There would never be a Shogunate setting, there would be "The Shogunate era setting in which we blow up history in this particular way." You can do that already without needing a particular book.

Inspiration, my friend. The books provide you with the past and present, and you build the future.

If you decide to start earlier than the game's Year 0, and the DM isn't one of those sociopaths obsessed with seeing the players struggle hail mary after hail mary and die ineffectively, then the game's story will change.

[Lix Lorn]

It might make it more interesting if they limited themselves to SHS with boards. They would have to be bored first of course.

I ♥ this thread.

[Tavar]

So, made a thread to discuss potential Lunar Anima power re-writes, including a rewritten Full and changing moon power. Thoughts?

[Exthalion]

Anima powers in general seem to need a rewrite. Zenith seems so situational as to border on pointless and as far as I can tell, Twilight either needs AESS or requires the ST to specifically put in the things in so that you can use it for rolls you could likely already make without difficulty.

[omegalith]

The Anima powers are pretty poorly balanced, yes.

Especially the whole Eclipse/Moonshadow/Fiend issue.

Allowing Eclipse and Moonshadow to only access each other's charm lists makes more sense (Particularly as you can buy a charm to allow that anyhow), though it does leave the question of what a Fiend could do that's thematically relevant.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Then why do you need a setting book? There would never be a Shogunate setting, there would be "The Shogunate era setting in which we blow up history in this particular way." You can do that already without needing a particular book.

Then why do we need DotFA or any of the Compasses?

[Dragnar]

Then why do you need a setting book? There would never be a Shogunate setting, there would be "The Shogunate era setting in which we blow up history in this particular way." You can do that already without needing a particular book.

Actually, from the sounds of it? That's pretty much exactly what every game will be like in 3E. The books won't be presenting a single moment of Creation's history, as much as a 5-10 year stretch of it. Mostly because this allows them to get away from the disbelief-stretching idea that pretty much everything is going wrong at exactly the same time.

The source books don't dictate history, they provide a setting that you can jump into and screw up/fix however you like.

[omegalith]

Actually, from the sounds of it? That's pretty much exactly what every game will be like in 3E. The books won't be presenting a single moment of Creation's history, as much as a 5-10 year stretch of it. Mostly because this allows them to get away from the disbelief-stretching idea that pretty much everything is going wrong at exactly the same time.

That's not the disbelief-stretching bit, Creation is a big place and most of the major events all tie together (ED kidnaps the Empress, makes a pact with the Neverborn, Jade Prison breaks, everyone freaks out).

The weird bit is that you're expected to believe that the two main villain groups have the infrastructure of their new minions up and running as if they were long-established institutions rather than a bunch of powerful but young and willful guys recruited hastily over a five year period.