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Thread: D&D 3.5 tiers
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2010-01-10, 09:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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D&D 3.5 tiers
A while ago someone posted a link to a guide on D&D 3.5 class tiers, how the tier system works and ways to balance classes. It included a suggestion I really liked, in which classes below tier 2 are played as gestalt characters.
I've been trying to find the thread it was posted in, but can't seem to find it. Could anyone give me the link?
Any help would be greatly appreciated
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2010-01-10, 09:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
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2010-01-10, 11:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
Exactly what I was looking for, plus some other cool helpful stuff. Cheers buddy
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2010-12-21, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
Has anyone posted the Tier system on these forums? I can't click on the links for the tier system on other websites.
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2010-12-21, 05:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.
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2010-12-21, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
Ok, so the tier system is just a list of examples? I thought it would go through every class and prestiege class and give it a tier number. Thanks though.
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2010-12-21, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
In their entirety? I don't think so. Would be rather rude, too, seeing as JaronK posts here.
EDIT: Heh.
In his defense for not doing it... maintaining large info-posts becomes twice the bother if it's posted cross-forum. And it's usually not a trivial effort to begin with. =/
EDIT2:
Most of the base classes are there already.
The more obscure base classes might be a good future addition, though...
PrCs are more difficult. Their power level is sometimes described in terms of how strongly they affect the power level of the base class used to enter, which doesn't really lend itself well to a "tier" system...Last edited by Ernir; 2010-12-21 at 05:26 PM.
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2010-12-21, 05:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
It... pretty much DOES every base class, save the unique Oriental Adventures and Dragon Compendium ones, which are easy enough to slot in.
Yeah, I feel sorta bad, but I also dislike denying a guy information.
Jaron, if you want me to take it down, just PM me and I'll do it instantly. Don't want to infringe on your e-rights or anything, man.
All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.
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2010-12-21, 05:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
Avatar by Assassin89
I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
My homebrew(updated 6/17):
SpoilerIn progress:
Prolonged Spell(Fix for Persistent spell)
Weapon Training(replaces Weapon Focus chain)
Shelved:
Ascendant Feats.[New content!]
Finished:
Belts of potionade
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2010-12-21, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
Right, good catch.
Might as well do the OA and DC classes:
Samurai: Tier 4ish, probably.
Shaman: If cleric is T1, so is Shaman.
Sohei: Tier 4 or 5, IIRC.
Battle Dancer: Tier 4-5.
Death Master: Tier 2 or 3, probably 2 due to a better spell list than the DNecro.
Jester: Same as Bard, wherever he falls, I forget.
Mountebank: Tier 5-6. Seriously, crap.
Savant: Tier 4-5.
Sha'ir: Big debate. Possibility to get any spell ever, but funky wording makes it hard to understand clearly. Anywhere from 1-3, probably on the lower end of that.
Urban Druid: It's a druid, but urban. Tier 1.
All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.
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2010-12-21, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
Calling Dragon Shaman t4 is quite a stretch.
[Edit]: And OA samurai doesn't really warrant tier 4. Good Will save and better skills don't really make up for the very narrow list of bonus feats and total lack of real class features it 'enjoys'. Ancestral Daisho is basically just a predetermined feat with less options than the actual feat (Ancestral Weapon).Last edited by Greenish; 2010-12-21 at 05:50 PM.
Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2010-12-21, 05:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
Same tier as Marshal, but I was guessing. Also, he has one of the *RARE* infinite healing(though only to half-health) abilities that is in-class for a base class. As an aura. Gotta be worth something, considering he can heal and fight at the same time(Something only crusaders get in-class otherwise). If its tier 5, its a high tier 5.
Avatar by Assassin89
I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
My homebrew(updated 6/17):
SpoilerIn progress:
Prolonged Spell(Fix for Persistent spell)
Weapon Training(replaces Weapon Focus chain)
Shelved:
Ascendant Feats.[New content!]
Finished:
Belts of potionade
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2010-12-21, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
I believe firmly that Marshals shouldn't be tier 4, either.
In-combat healing is notably inefficient, even when it's faster than a small Fast Healing. Besides, their fighting prowess is limited to a mediocre breath weapon every d4 rounds, and simple weapons & medium BAB the rest of the time.
Hmm, perhaps.Last edited by Greenish; 2010-12-21 at 06:14 PM.
Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2010-12-21, 06:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
I don't think infinite effects (such as healing) warrant an increase in tier - if they did, then the warlock would be ranked a lot higher. Tiers are primarily about versatility, not about raw power.
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2010-12-21, 06:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
I was suprised they weren't in the sticky.
I just assumed that they would be given all the discussion they have provoked.
(Actually thats probably not quite the criteria it sounds like, or the sticky would be full of Monk stuff )π = 4
Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.
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2010-12-21, 06:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
I have no problem with people re-posting it as long as they're not trying to claim it's their own work or something. It's easier to just have it in one place and have it linked from elsewhere. Though as a note, that was the old one that was linked... here's the slightly more up to date one: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=5293.0
With that said, I do enjoy a good defenestration.
Anyway, I don't rank classes I'm unfamiliar with, so there's a lot that aren't on there. I figured there's enough of a guideline anyway, so it's not too hard to figure out where other classes go. Though I've got some updating to do, and some folks have actually put in some very good information on other classes. I keep meaning to make updates, but then I get distracted...
JaronK
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2010-12-21, 06:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
I think adding the missing classes and significant ACFs (like Mystic Ranger) would be awesome. You could also make an extended 'why is each class on it's tier', with thoughts for each class (maybe using the three example situations you point out in the thread). I believe most of the community here would be willing to help with that (I would, at least).
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2010-12-21, 06:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
I just wanted to point out that The Giant subscribes to the tier system too. (panel 5)
Make of that what you will.
Also, there are some psionic classes missing so I will fill that gap as I am wont to do. I'll try to classify them here, with some brief reasoning.
Base Ardents: T3 (Mantles have weak power choices and many have gaps at certain levels.)
Mind's Eye Ardents: T2 (Mantle gaps can be filled, poor powers swapped out... plus, Dominant Ideal[!])
Base Lurk: Mid-T4 (decent amount of power but unfocused. Lacks the damage potential of a Psywar, the skillmonkey potential of a Psyrogue or the casting potential of a Wilder.)
Mind's Eye Lurk: High T4 (New augment lists help it specialize, but it still falls short at combat, skillmonkeying, tracking etc.)
Psychic Rogue: T3 (Excels at skillmonkey role, remains useful when role is not needed e.g. combat.)
Divine Mind: T5 (Suffers from many of the same problems as the paladin, and no mount to boot.)
Feel free to amend the above, as the tier system is a community project after all.Last edited by Psyren; 2010-12-21 at 06:37 PM.
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2010-12-21, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
I don't like bringing other people into something that major (and it would be major) because I get distracted and then stop posting and then I feel like I've let them down. So, I just don't (it's the same reason I don't do PbP anymore). But I do read what people say on the topic.
But with that said, a bunch of people actually did make a bunch of threads just like what you're describing, and they were pretty darn good. They were titled things like "why Tier 5s are in tier 5" and went through every tier. There was some fine work in there.
JaronK
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2010-12-21, 06:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.
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2010-12-21, 06:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-12-21, 06:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
Handbooks: (Hosted on the new MixMax forums)
[3.5] The Poison Handbook
[3.5] (New) Master of Shrouds Handbook
[3.5 Base Class] Healer's Handbook
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2010-12-21, 07:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
I finished your sentence for you. An aura, being passive, ignores the "in-combat healing is inefficient" diatribe. Its like a weaker version of persisted lesser vigor.
And the breath weapon isn't "mediocre" as PC breath weapons go. 10d6 is about as good as you're getting without fivefold, and it is the most powerful one that can take metabreath feats by RAI(that I'm aware of).
To get tier 5, you need to either:
A)Be wholly focused on one thing, to the point that what you're capable of doing might often be uncalled for(Read: Fighter, Healer)
B)"So unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything"
They're very explicitly not A, since they've got healing, support, some face-monkey(6/10 of them get bluff as a class skill), can get decent listen/spot checks(aura), alternate movement modes at level 3, wings at level 19, immunity to an element of damage(which can be useful).
And for the "mastering anything" qualification, I suppose that depends on how valuable a clinging lingering entangling maximized 10d6 breath weapon is, 1/encounter, or 2/encounter with Dragonborn.
That depends entirely on the tier.Last edited by Godskook; 2010-12-21 at 07:07 PM.
Avatar by Assassin89
I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
My homebrew(updated 6/17):
SpoilerIn progress:
Prolonged Spell(Fix for Persistent spell)
Weapon Training(replaces Weapon Focus chain)
Shelved:
Ascendant Feats.[New content!]
Finished:
Belts of potionade
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2010-12-21, 07:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
Which is fine for topping people off (oh wait, the aura doesn't do that), but for keeping people in the fight it's rather minor. A Dragon Shaman doesn't need actions for the aura, true, but then again it would have actions to spend since it's only real offense, nay, only real combat option, comes online only every 1d4 rounds.
Without metabreaths, it's rather incidental for something that can only be used once or twice a combat.
They got healing that's mostly irrelevant in combat, and can't top people off between combats, their "support" is limited to standing there and providing a single, very minor buff, they get one relevant skill for face (and it's not diplomacy), poor skill points, and their detection abilities are on the level of a fighter (cross class skills, no skillpoints, no wisdom synergy) +5 at level 20. Permanent spider climb can be handy, but really, that's not much.
I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing it. They're much like monk, in that they have some nifty tools, but none of them are that relevant.Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2010-12-21, 07:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
Fast Healing up to half isn't what I'd call "in combat healing." That's just not going to be enough to matter.
JaronK
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2010-12-21, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
Chief would like a word with you. Passive auto-stabilization is a big enough feature to warrant mentioning. Its not 'great', but its solid for a tier 4 or 5 class.
Avatar by Assassin89
I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
My homebrew(updated 6/17):
SpoilerIn progress:
Prolonged Spell(Fix for Persistent spell)
Weapon Training(replaces Weapon Focus chain)
Shelved:
Ascendant Feats.[New content!]
Finished:
Belts of potionade
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2010-12-21, 08:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2010-12-21, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
What Psy said. Also, Chief was 3rd level. 3rd. Level.
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2010-12-21, 08:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 tiers
My point, which was admittedly very unstated, was if there were a Dragon Shaman in Chief's party, then no combat actions(standard/move) would've been needed to stabilize him. A significant improvement on the method they used, which was to roll heal checks, and would've still been competitive with actually casting CLWs or Lay on hands on him instead.
Avatar by Assassin89
I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
My homebrew(updated 6/17):
SpoilerIn progress:
Prolonged Spell(Fix for Persistent spell)
Weapon Training(replaces Weapon Focus chain)
Shelved:
Ascendant Feats.[New content!]
Finished:
Belts of potionade
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2010-12-21, 08:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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