The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

[Psyren]

Battle Blessing works fine with Prestige Paladins; it requires paladin spells, not paladin slots. It even works for other classes with Paladin spells, e.g. Archivists.

[DoctorGlock]

Battle Blessing works fine with Prestige Paladins; it requires paladin spells, not paladin slots. It even works for other classes with Paladin spells, e.g. Archivists.

And thus only works with the specific paladin list?

And there I was thinking I'd been clever.

[erikun]

Why did you exclude Druids, who still have a decent spell list even without wildshape or a meaningful animal companion? Why did you include Duskblades in a theurge discussion? Why are Spirit Shamans, easily a T1 caster equal to or above Druid spellcasting, lumped with Sorcerers and Favored Souls? Why no talk about Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, and Warmages?

Why include talk about the Fochlucan Lyrist but the Sublime Chord "hardly qualifies here." Also, no Ur-Priest discussion?

I've seen Wizard/Druid/Arcane Hierophant theurges that ride around mounted on their ubercompanion, and so strength isn't always something that should be neglected. Cleric/Ardent/Psychic Theurge is as good in melee as the standard Cleric or Ardent, which is pretty dang good. I would not be inclined to dump dexterity either, unless I'm playing a character with no touch attacks and a healthy miss chance; there are just too many bonuses (and spells) that apply to touch AC to assume that a +10 to hit at 20th level will cut it.

Conversely, why boost charisma in anything but Cleric/Dread Necro with DMM?

If you are talking about the "one best" Theurge, they you probably mean Wizard/Archivist... in which case, charisma is useless to you. Wisdom isn't really that significant either, unless you like throwing around the Cleric debuffs for some reason. If you are not specifically talking about that, though, then the importance of various stats would change a lot; a Sublime Chord/Ur-Priest theurge gets very little use out of intelligence.


Build options:

Wizard 4/Beguiler 1/Ultimate Magus with Practiced Manifester (Beguiler) give you near-full wizard spellcasting (two levels lost over 20), SAD Int spellcasting, a healthy amount of Beguiler casting and Ultimate Magus tricks. I still like Bard better, though.

Wizard 9/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge for "natural" entry with 9th level spellcasting on both sides. Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge is a popular alternative, as Mindbender allows you to qualify for Ur-Priest earlier (good Fort save, Bluff class skill) and grants you Telepathy for the ever popular Mindsight feat.

Wizard 3/Druid 3/Arcane Hierophant/Mystic Theurge (I think) grants you 9th level spells on both sides, near-full wildshape progression, and near-full progression for your animal companion/familiar hybrid. As mentioned before, there are mounted builds that can take advantage of this. If you don't care as much about double-9ths, then you could just take one side (Wiz3/Dru3/AH/Druid preferred) for basically full spell and ability progression with 7th level spellcasting on the other side.

Cleric 3/Ardent 3/Psychic Theurge can gish it up as well as any Cleric or Ardent build. Ardent basically loses no progression - with the Practiced Manifester feat - due to the class's unusual wording as well, although you'll be limited to three mantles on the Ardent side.

Cleric/Dread Necromancer/Mystic Theurge gets a lot more turning attempts, especially if you take the Destroy Undead variant and grab a level of Sacred Exorsist. You'd probably want to focus more on Cleric than Dread Necro in this case, though.

[Psyren]

And thus only works with the specific paladin list?

And there I was thinking I'd been clever.

Yes:

"You can cast most of your paladin spells faster than normal."

It will only work with cleric spells that are also on the paladin list.

[Little Brother]

Why did you exclude Druids, who still have a decent spell list even without wildshape or a meaningful animal companion?

I have. See the Arcane Heirophant. I lack enough experience to make an educated entry on them, but put in what was necessary.

Why did you include Duskblades in a theurge discussion?

'Cuz I hear having every cleric spell 5th level and lower effectively at will is good? As I said, not the best, but can be made pretty good.

Why are Spirit Shamans, easily a T1 caster equal to or above Druid spellcasting, lumped with Sorcerers and Favored Souls?

You're joking, right? They are strictly inferior to Druids, period. Favored Soul is simply superior to a Spirit Shaman in a spontaneous build.

Why no talk about Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, and Warmages?

I did.

Why include talk about the Fochlucan Lyrist but the Sublime Chord "hardly qualifies here." Also, no Ur-Priest discussion?

Because they're fast progression classes, and that's all that needs to be said. Fochlucan Lyrist, on the other hand, is probably the best theurge-progression class, except for maybe the Arcane Heirophant.

I've seen Wizard/Druid/Arcane Hierophant theurges that ride around mounted on their ubercompanion, and so strength isn't always something that should be neglected.

You mean mediocre companion or terrible wizard casting, right? Either you lose a good 9 levels of your companion or you lose wizard casting. Guess which one is better?

Cleric/Ardent/Psychic Theurge is as good in melee as the standard Cleric or Ardent, which is pretty dang good.

You mean good with d4 HD and half BAB?

I would not be inclined to dump dexterity either, unless I'm playing a character with no touch attacks and a healthy miss chance; there are just too many bonuses (and spells) that apply to touch AC to assume that a +10 to hit at 20th level will cut it.

Unless you're running a SAD build, which use weaker classes overall, you're needing to keep two stats high, or at least medium-high.

Conversely, why boost charisma in anything but Cleric/Dread Necro with DMM?

Because Cleric/DM is terribad? Because Favored Soul/Sublime Chord is pretty good?

If you are talking about the "one best" Theurge, they you probably mean Wizard/Archivist... in which case, charisma is useless to you.

No, the best one is Cleric/Wizard. Archivist/Wizard is number two.

Wisdom isn't really that significant either, unless you like throwing around the Cleric debuffs for some reason.

I hear Unluck is good? If it makes you feel better, though, I'll spell everything out. I just figured people'd be able to tell which stats applied to which builds, 'cuz, yanno, it's in the entry in the books they are in.

If you are not specifically talking about that, though, then the importance of various stats would change a lot; a Sublime Chord/Ur-Priest theurge gets very little use out of intelligence.

Except, you know, having the skills needed to qualify for Sublime Chord?

Build options:

Wizard 4/Beguiler 1/Ultimate Magus with Practiced Manifester (Beguiler) give you near-full wizard spellcasting (two levels lost over 20), SAD Int spellcasting, a healthy amount of Beguiler casting and Ultimate Magus tricks. I still like Bard better, though.

Both terrible and not a theurge.

Wizard 9/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge for "natural" entry with 9th level spellcasting on both sides. Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge is a popular alternative, as Mindbender allows you to qualify for Ur-Priest earlier (good Fort save, Bluff class skill) and grants you Telepathy for the ever popular Mindsight feat.

Wizard 3/Druid 3/Arcane Hierophant/Mystic Theurge (I think) grants you 9th level spells on both sides, near-full wildshape progression, and near-full progression for your animal companion/familiar hybrid. As mentioned before, there are mounted builds that can take advantage of this. If you don't care as much about double-9ths, then you could just take one side (Wiz3/Dru3/AH/Druid preferred) for basically full spell and ability progression with 7th level spellcasting on the other side.

Except for no wildshape, a terrible companion, and mediocre casting, it's great!

Cleric 3/Ardent 3/Psychic Theurge can gish it up as well as any Cleric or Ardent build. Ardent basically loses no progression - with the Practiced Manifester feat - due to the class's unusual wording as well, although you'll be limited to three mantles on the Ardent side.

Except for, yanno, having half BAB, d4 HD, and being stictly inferior to a Wizard/STP Erudite/Cerebremancer? No.

Cleric/Dread Necromancer/Mystic Theurge gets a lot more turning attempts, especially if you take the Destroy Undead variant and grab a level of Sacred Exorsist. You'd probably want to focus more on Cleric than Dread Necro in this case, though.

Except, you know, Dread Necros, Beguilers, and Warmages are beyond terrible as theurges? And, you know, you can use Wizard/Ur-Priest/Sacred Exorcist to grab two turn pools, especially seeing how you have to worship a neutral god with bad domains to get both Turn and Rebuke in that build?

[JadePhoenix]

They are strictly inferior to Druids, period. Favored Soul is simply superior to a Spirit Shaman in a spontaneous build.

Please reread how a Spirit Shaman prepares spells. That's the single best fusion between prepared and spontaneous casting ever.

[Little Brother]

Please reread how a Spirit Shaman prepares spells. That's the single best fusion between prepared and spontaneous casting ever.

So? In a Theurge, spontaneous is strictly inferior to prepared. Furthermore, the only reason you want a list like the Druid's, which is strictly inferior to a cleric or, you know, the Archivist, is because of Wildshape. Guess what Spirit Shamans don't have. Oh, yeah. Wildshape.

[erikun]

You're joking, right? They are strictly inferior to Druids, period. Favored Soul is simply superior to a Spirit Shaman in a spontaneous build.

The Spirit Shaman prepares spells each day, and then casts them spontaneously. Oh, and they have more spell slots that the Druid. The Spirit Shaman has one of the best spellcasting methods in the game, only coming short of the scribe-every-spell Archivist and full-access-anything Rainbeguilers.

The only way the Shaman comes up short is lacking Wildshape/Companion, and you yourself call the companion not worth much. Losing Wildshape is not good, but most theurges aren't going to progress it anyways and the pure Spirit Shaman spellcasting is superior to the Druid casting.

Because they're fast progression classes, and that's all that needs to be said.

Given that this is supposed to be a guide to people unfamiliar with creating theurges, I think that a lot can be said about these classes and their use.

You mean mediocre companion or terrible wizard casting, right? Either you lose a good 9 levels of your companion or you lose wizard casting. Guess which one is better?

Melee can be made irrelevant by 15th level anyways, so you either buff up your companion and still dominate at melee or you can retire the companion and be a 9/9 caster. Also note that not everyone is playing at 20th level only, so those mid-levels were being highly mobile and good in combat are still significant.

Also note that something like Druid 5/Wizard 1/AH 10/Druid 4 (with early entry trickery) exchanges a single caster level for 6th level wizard spells and a companion that is intelligent enough to participate meaningfully in combat. That's probably rather noteworthy.

You mean good with d4 HD and half BAB?

Cloistered Cleric has d6 HD and half BAB, and it still considered a full improvement over the regular Cleric in almost every case. Hit Points from HD mean nothing at higher levels, and BAB is ignored thanks to Divine Power. So yes, the Mystic Theurge would still rock melee even with d4 HD and half BAB.

Because Cleric/DM is terribad? Because Favored Soul/Sublime Chord is pretty good?

You are... recommending Favored Soul over Cleric?

No, the best one is Cleric/Wizard. Archivist/Wizard is number two.

How is Cleric superior to Archivist, especially if you take a level of Sacred Exorcist?

Both terrible and not a theurge.

Given that you have Ultimate Magus listed in your guide as one of the theurge classes, I see some confusion here.

Except for no wildshape, a terrible companion, and mediocre casting, it's great!

Um, Arcane Hierophant does progress wildshape. It's the main reason to take Arcane Hierophant. It also gives your companion all the abilities of an Animal Companion and a Familiar of that level.

So? In a Theurge, spontaneous is strictly inferior to prepared.

I would love to see the reasoning behind this.

[DonutBoy12321]

Theurge-ish builds I can think of:
Bamboo Spirit Folk
Cleric 6/Prestige Paladin 4/Geomancer 10. This build utilizes the Sword of the Arcane Order feat to gain wizard Spellcasting in cleric slots, and Geomancer to gain single-attribute dependency and heavy armor arcane casting.

Archivist 6/Prestige Paladin (Slaughter of Tyranny) 4/Nightcloak 7/Archivist +1.
Similar to last build, except it has Single Attribute Dependency from the start. Nightcloak 7 grants Intelligence to saves, along with Charisma.

[Little Brother]

The Spirit Shaman prepares spells each day, and then casts them spontaneously. Oh, and they have more spell slots that the Druid. The Spirit Shaman has one of the best spellcasting methods in the game, only coming short of the scribe-every-spell Archivist and full-access-anything Rainbeguilers.

No, it retrieves spells. No Alternative Spell Source, and so is strictly inferior to a Druid.

The only way the Shaman comes up short is lacking Wildshape/Companion, and you yourself call the companion not worth much. Losing Wildshape is not good, but most theurges aren't going to progress it anyways and the pure Spirit Shaman spellcasting is superior to the Druid casting.

And Wildshape is the only reason to actually go Druid. Their list is awful compared to cleric/Archivist/anything else, really.

Given that this is supposed to be a guide to people unfamiliar with creating theurges, I think that a lot can be said about these classes and their use.

How so? All that matters is the spells, so all you need to know is to qualify ASAP, then hit the theurge classes immediately.

Melee can be made irrelevant by 15th level anyways, so you either buff up your companion and still dominate at melee or you can retire the companion and be a 9/9 caster. Also note that not everyone is playing at 20th level only, so those mid-levels were being highly mobile and good in combat are still significant.

And you're taking a worse casting list for a companion that sucks. Druid casting<<<<Cleric, period.

Also note that something like Druid 5/Wizard 1/AH 10/Druid 4 (with early entry trickery) exchanges a single caster level for 6th level wizard spells and a companion that is intelligent enough to participate meaningfully in combat. That's probably rather noteworthy.

Except that's just a druid build. Not a Theurge build. A Theurge goes for double nines. You get mediocre casting, for that level, for minimal investment, we're proud of you! It just doesn't matter here.

Cloistered Cleric has d6 HD and half BAB, and it still considered a full improvement over the regular Cleric in almost every case. Hit Points from HD mean nothing at higher levels, and BAB is ignored thanks to Divine Power. So yes, the Mystic Theurge would still rock melee even with d4 HD and half BAB.

Cloistered Cleric only because it gives you toys to play with, and doesn't belong on a melee build, unless you're building the Twice-Betrayer.

You are... recommending Favored Soul over Cleric?

Nope, I'm recommending Sublime Chord over the trash that is Dread Necro.

How is Cleric superior to Archivist, especially if you take a level of Sacred Exorcist?

Because you auto-know every spell you can cast. So, all you need to do is weasel one high-level slot in, and you can PrC out safely, thanks to Alternative Source Spell.

Given that you have Ultimate Magus listed in your guide as one of the theurge classes, I see some confusion here.

Nope, it's in the general dual-progression list. Difference.

Um, Arcane Hierophant does progress wildshape. It's the main reason to take Arcane Hierophant. It also gives your companion all the abilities of an Animal Companion and a Familiar of that level.

Only if you already have Wildshape. Druid 3 doesn't.

And a familiar and a companion in one? Okay, melee, as you said, really doesn't matter to casters.

I would love to see the reasoning behind this.

Alternative Source Spell. You'd know this if you, yanno, actually read the guide.

Theurge-ish builds I can think of:
Bamboo Spirit Folk
Cleric 6/Prestige Paladin 4/Geomancer 10. This build utilizes the Sword of the Arcane Order feat to gain wizard Spellcasting in cleric slots, and Geomancer to gain single-attribute dependency and heavy armor arcane casting.

Archivist 6/Prestige Paladin (Slaughter of Tyranny) 4/Nightcloak 7/Archivist +1.
Similar to last build, except it has Single Attribute Dependency from the start. Nightcloak 7 grants Intelligence to saves, along with Charisma.

Trick doesn't work, we just went over this.

[Heliomance]

I would note that you never actually explained what's so good about Alternative Source Spell. You said it's good, but not anything about what it does and why you want it.

Also, it's Dragon Magazine content, which is pretty much the most commonly banned content ever, right behind third party.

[Little Brother]

I would note that you never actually explained what's so good about Alternative Source Spell. You said it's good, but not anything about what it does and why you want it.

Alternative Source Spell lets you prepare spells known from a Divine class in Arcane slots, as an Arcane caster, and vice-versa.

So, it's not just good, it is so far beyond good that there is no reason not to take it, period.

Also, it's Dragon Magazine content, which is pretty much the most commonly banned content ever, right behind third party.

So? A lot of DMs disallow Illumians or early entry. Plenty disallow Incarnum, or Psionics, or Tome of Battle. This, or any other unreasonable ban, has nothing to do with a handbook.

[Heliomance]

Alternative Source Spell lets you prepare spells known from a Divine class in Arcane slots, as an Arcane caster, and vice-versa.

So, it's not just good, it is so far beyond good that there is no reason not to take it, period.

And the upshot of this is that..?

So? A lot of DMs disallow Illumians or early entry. Plenty disallow Incarnum, or Psionics, or Tome of Battle. This, or any other unreasonable ban, has nothing to do with a handbook.

It is, however, a sign that you should not be saying "You are taking this feat. No argument, you HAVE to take this." Because the probability of the average gamer being ALLOWED to take it is a long, long way from certain.

[Little Brother]

And the upshot of this is that..?

Versatility? Easier time SADing? Effects that apply only to arcane or divine casting? Divine Metamagic? Sky's the limit.

It is, however, a sign that you should not be saying "You are taking this feat. No argument, you HAVE to take this." Because the probability of the average gamer being ALLOWED to take it is a long, long way from certain.

So? There is no argument, they should take this.

[Heliomance]

Look, if you're writing a handbook, you need to assume only a VERY basic level of prior knowledge on the part of your target audience. If Alternative Source Spell is so incredibly good, you need to devote a good paragraph to explaining why, and what it lets you do. You ALSO need to note that it's Dragon content and thus is likely to be disallowed. Feel free to say "If your DM will permit it, take this," but generally, permission for Dragon content should not be assumed the same way you can assume, say, the Complete series.

[JadePhoenix]

Look, if you're writing a handbook, you need to assume only a VERY basic level of prior knowledge on the part of your target audience. If Alternative Source Spell is so incredibly good, you need to devote a good paragraph to explaining why, and what it lets you do. You ALSO need to note that it's Dragon content and thus is likely to be disallowed. Feel free to say "If your DM will permit it, take this," but generally, permission for Dragon content should not be assumed the same way you can assume, say, the Complete series.

I've been saying that since page 1. It's simply not Little Brother's style, it seems. His handbook is not for everyone. We should just move alonh, Heliomance, seriously.

[Little Brother]

Look, if you're writing a handbook, you need to assume only a VERY basic level of prior knowledge on the part of your target audience. If Alternative Source Spell is so incredibly good, you need to devote a good paragraph to explaining why, and what it lets you do. You ALSO need to note that it's Dragon content and thus is likely to be disallowed. Feel free to say "If your DM will permit it, take this," but generally, permission for Dragon content should not be assumed the same way you can assume, say, the Complete series.

There. Happy?

I've been saying that since page 1. It's simply not Little Brother's style, it seems. His handbook is not for everyone. We should just move alonh, Heliomance, seriously.

So, are you just following this to say "Wow, I really hate this," whenever someone posts?

[Suddo]

Alternative Source Spell is from a dragon magazine. No wonder I couldn't find it. I definitely think you should include what issue its from sense Dragon Magazine stuff is the hardest stuff to find. I mean sometimes its something people know of but can't point out. I know you think people should have a "mastery" of the basic system but dragon magazine beyond everything else doesn't count as part of system mastery; Its often used to be cheesy which is okay but if used in a handbook needs to be very well explained.

And although, I don't think, you use Alternative Source Spell as a requirement in your builds you should still note the ability to use it is sometimes questionable.

[Gnaeus]

And although, I don't think, you use Alternative Source Spell as a requirement in your builds you should still note the ability to use it is sometimes questionable.

Most of what is advocated here is questionable, and is suggested as if its use was clear and undisputed. Alt Source Spell is no different than most of LB's advice.

[JadePhoenix]

There. Happy?
So, are you just following this to say "Wow, I really hate this," whenever someone posts?

No, I'm not. I was trying to help Heliomance avoid wasting his time, that is all.
You really should try being less confrontational.

[averagejoe]

You really should try being less confrontational.

The Mod They Call Me: There are a good number of people posting in this thread that could stand to be less confrontational. I've seen a few posts that have been really toeing the line. Let's try not to go all the way, yeah?

[sreservoir]

durthan (UA) is a theurge trap, similar to geomancer. dweomerkeeper (CD WE), too, but that one is cheap and is ridiculously good nevertheless.

[Leon]

Heal-bitch[/SIZE]

Perfectly valid play style.

[Essence_of_War]

And although, I don't think, you use Alternative Source Spell as a requirement in your builds you should still note the ability to use it is sometimes questionable.

I agree here.

My, admittedly limited, observation has been that Dragon Mag content is allowed in very few games, and when it is, players usually have to approve it case-by-case and assure the DM that they aren't going to be irresponsible with it.

[Little Brother]

durthan (UA) is a theurge trap, similar to geomancer. dweomerkeeper (CD WE), too, but that one is cheap and is ridiculously good nevertheless.

I actually do not have that book, but I will update the OP, and will be more in depth the second I get it. Thanks for pointing that out.

Perfectly valid play style.

For a decent character? No.

I agree here.

My, admittedly limited, observation has been that Dragon Mag content is allowed in very few games, and when it is, players usually have to approve it case-by-case and assure the DM that they aren't going to be irresponsible with it.

Maybe it's just me, but all of my groups have been basically "Don't be a jackass when making it" rule, or, at least, clear it, but unless you're doing something downright idiotic it's fine.

And, regardless, I put a note up on it.

[Leon]

For a decent character? No.

Depends on what you consider decent.
For someone who likes playing healing characters its a good choice.

When making a guide book you need to consider all the options - you apparently don't this one but its no less of a decent role to play than anything else.

[Little Brother]

Depends on what you consider decent.
For someone who likes playing healing characters its a good choice.

For someone who likes healing, they should just play a binder and bind Buer, not waste a perfectly good build on jank like that. Or, you know, patch people up after fights, if convenient, as something that isn't a Theurge. You are a Theurge to be better than batman, not wasting your time doing someone else's job.

[Leon]

You can do both with a Theurge, be batman and a Medic

[Little Brother]

You can do both with a Theurge, be batman and a Medic

And then defeating the point of a theurge. Great idea. Now I'll go make a Swift Hunter based on full attacking with two-handed weapon.

[Manateee]

Ambitious handbook, but large parts of it don't make sense.

First, why use a Theurge? What are the advantages to multiclassing a character that spells like Summons/Shapechange or spell list expansion can't address?

Then the structure you've used in certain sections doesn't make sense.

For example, the Stats section is out of place. Eg. should I really max Int on a Sublime Chord/Shugenja? Should I really crank Cha in an Arcane Hierophant? It would make more sense to either use this section to rank stats by their usability as the primary casting stat in a Theurge or by using them to organize a list of different kinds of casters/manifesters keyed off particular stats.

ACFs that don't directly affect multiclassed casters are out of place. Unless you plan to include comprehensive sections of Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Psion, etc. build advice, you can probably assume someone using this guide either knows what's available or is going to turn to another handbook. For example, Spontaneous Divination doesn't provide anything special to a Mystic Theurge and doesn't deserve any more consideration than normal for a Wizard, but High One Warrior-Wizard might be more useful than normal in something like an Archivist/Wizard with a Prestige Paladin dip.

This does very little to support Theurge entry. I know there are tricks like Earth Spell, Precocious Apprentice and so on that allow a character to enter the prestige classes with minimally stunted character growth, but I don't see a list of those options, I don't see their legitimacy discussed, I don't see comparative advantages of Sanctum spell v. Improved Sigil v. Versatile Spellcaster, etc. Likewise, I know there are tricks like Arcane Preparation, Southern Magician, etc. that let you qualify for nonstandard Theurge feats and PrCs, and again - though this is the information I'm going to turn to a guide like this to look for - there's no comparison, listing or discussion.

Similarly, the classes need more discussion. Knowing that Cerebremancer does Psionic/Arcane doesn't tell me what I need to get into it, it doesn't really tell me what I get out of it (ie. does it provide straight casting advancement like the MT, does it provide nerfed casting advancement like the True Necromancer or Eldritch Theurge, does it provide improved casting advancement like the Anima Mage, etc.) - those are really the two questions I'd be coming to a thread like this to resolve.

It's cool you're building this. It has the potential to be a usable tool. But in it's current state, it's just not useful.