OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

A battleship also hit a mine, which gave the officers an excuse for playing it safe. The Ottoman Sultan was busy evacuating his palace, if they'd pressed the attack it could have opened a 3rd front.

For those who don't know, a "plankholder" is a member of the first crew assigned to a ship when it enters service. If you've served your entire career on a vessel you will tend to be fond of her.

Frankly, I'm surprised an empire built on footstools was able to last as long as it did.

[Quibblicious]

A battleship also hit a mine, which gave the officers an excuse for playing it safe. The Ottoman Sultan was busy evacuating his palace, if they'd pressed the attack it could have opened a 3rd front.

For those who don't know, a "plankholder" is a member of the first crew assigned to a ship when it enters service. If you've served your entire career on a vessel you will tend to be fond of her.

Ah yes, forgot about the one ship hitting a mine that turned their bowels to water. Thank you!

Had they pressed, the Ottomans were in no place to make a good defense. It was probably the one time in the annals of history that an attack through the Dardanelles could have succeeded.

Q

[Quibblicious]

Frankly, I'm surprised an empire built on footstools was able to last as long as it did.

They were three legged stools, and very stable.

Q

[aurilee]

Andi strikes me as the engineer who hates to have to fix it again. She like to keep it humming and can optimize the heck out of it, and can fix things swiftly and efficiently when she puts her mind to it. She also, however, is so emotionally invested in the ship itself that she hates to see it put in any danger.

Honestly not the worst traits for an engineer to have. But, not so great for a captain. And even then, it wouldn't be so bad is said chief engineer didn't have such horrible entitlement issues (and lack of composure) that they whack their acting captain in the back of the head with a wrench.

This is similar to the plankholder captains in the Gallipoli campaign in WWI, who were supposed to drive their fairly new but still outdated battle ships into the Dardanelles and close to the shore based gun emplacements and destroy the emplacements to allow the troop ships to gain passage. Well, many of those captains had the romantic notion that their ships were the fair ladies of the seas and shouldn't be risked in such a maneuver, putting the material safety of the ship over accomplishing their mission.

The end result was a failure of the Gallipoli campaign and much wasted life because the captains couldn't bear to put their ships in the line of fire in the manner they should have.

Its not completely the fault of those captains, but their initial failures complicated the subsequent decisions and led indirectly to a failed campaign and a loss of a lot of lives.

For those who don't know, the order of priority for a military commander is always mission, men, equipment, at least for the United States armed services. If mission took a back seat to either men or equipment, you'd never be able to send men into battle.

Q
Making another history check...

Yeah, that's a fairly apt comparison (minus the mutiny thing...)

Unfortunately for the gang, Andi doesn't even believe in the mission. And her current priorities seem to roughly be: control/power/ego, ship, people, passengers, that dumb mission thing.

[Anarion]

Hmm. I'm surprised one hit was able to knock Bandana out like that. Pity, I was rather hoping for the mutiny to lead to an open battle on decks rather than just turning the ship around. I guess we'll have to see what happens. Maybe someone else will end up intervening.

[Jasdoif]

Frankly, I'm surprised an empire built on footstools was able to last as long as it did.

Be careful. The Ottoman Empress is easy to underestimate.

[Forikroder]

Hmm. I'm surprised one hit was able to knock Bandana out like that. Pity, I was rather hoping for the mutiny to lead to an open battle on decks rather than just turning the ship around. I guess we'll have to see what happens. Maybe someone else will end up intervening.

the chin to the railing was probably worse then the wrench to the head

[Snails]

This is similar to the plankholder captains in the Gallipoli campaign in WWI, who were supposed to drive their fairly new but still outdated battle ships into the Dardanelles and close to the shore based gun emplacements and destroy the emplacements to allow the troop ships to gain passage. Well, many of those captains had the romantic notion that their ships were the fair ladies of the seas and shouldn't be risked in such a maneuver, putting the material safety of the ship over accomplishing their mission.

I do not really disagree with your interpretation, but I would add some nuance. The British captains liked to think of themselves as the creme-de-la-creme of English leadership class, the branch of military service that kept the isles free from outside military intervention for 400 years. If the navy gets mauled, what would happen to England, with all those menacing Prussian battleships waiting to pounce from the Helgoland Bight? Obviously the navy must be preserved at all costs!

The real answer is that is not really the problem for captains assigned to the Mediterranean to worry about, as the North Sea armada had the problem well in hand. I mention this argument because it is a matter of mindset, where their own precious ship is a piece of a grand vision of how the preferences of sea captains are more important than anyone else.

I have no doubt that Julio lead the Mechane into dangers that Andi did not understand, that were not explained to her.* But rather than such history being a reason to give Bandana some leeway, Andi is using her past history of frustration to take it out on Bandana. IMO.


* Explaining the full mission to the crew does not build up the dramatic tension as much as possible, obviously.

[Peelee]

Be careful. The Ottoman Empress is easy to underestimate.

Clearly. Here I was thinking she just got off her feet and kicked back all day.

[Porthos]

Gonna say, Andi shouldn't have snapped like that. Obviously. In the wrong and all that.

But Bandana hasn't exactly been covering herself in glory this whole time, either.

No, she didn't act rashly enough to deserve a bonk on the head. Stated in advance.

But her leadership skills? Well, I haven't exactly been impressed with them this whole time. She should have realized the tension building between her and Andi (and by proxy a good chunk of the rest of the ship) and diffused it before it ever got to this point.

This was a classic dysfunctional relationship between two people and it finally snapped when enough weight was put on it.

[Quibblicious]

I do not really disagree with your interpretation, but I would add some nuance. The British captains liked to think of themselves as the creme-de-la-creme of English leadership class, the branch of military service that kept the isles free from outside military intervention for 400 years. If the navy gets mauled, what would happen to England, with all those menacing Prussian battleships waiting to pounce from the Helgoland Bight? Obviously the navy must be preserved at all costs!

The real answer is that is not really the problem for captains assigned to the Mediterranean to worry about, as the North Sea armada had the problem well in hand. I mention this argument because it is a matter of mindset, where their own precious ship is a piece of a grand vision of how the preferences of sea captains are more important than anyone else.

That is a somewhat more nuanced view, but it boils down to the same thing -- they put their ships ahead of the mission, which it seems that Andi is doing now.

The Paladins would be pitching fits...

Q

[aurilee]

The Paladins would be pitching fits...

Q

O.O

There's a time when Paladins aren't pitching fits?

paladins = every chaotic's favourite punching bag
...
some of them are nice though
...
when they aren't telling you to stop doing stuff
...
and sometimes they might be right
...
or so I've heard

[pendell]

Honestly not the worst traits for an engineer to have. But, not so great for a captain. And even then, it wouldn't be so bad is said chief engineer didn't have such horrible entitlement issues (and lack of composure) that they whack their acting captain in the back of the head with a wrench.



Yeah, that's a fairly apt comparison (minus the mutiny thing...)

Unfortunately for the gang, Andi doesn't even believe in the mission. And her current priorities seem to roughly be: control/power/ego, ship, people, passengers, that dumb mission thing.

What mission? Bandanna's personal crusade to save the world isn't Andi's mission, and she doesn't see why it has to be the Mechane's mission either. Which is what this mutiny is all about.

From a pirate's perspective, the life is supposed to be preying on defenseless merchants who can't fight back. Fighting is something to be done only when you can't outrun a warship, as a last resort.

Bandanna's continual taking of the Mechane into harm's way is something an adventurer or a hero does. But it's not what the crew of the Mechane signed on for. It's not their mission and, as happens to leaders who ignore crew morale, she got hit from behind. Happens in the real world to unpopular officers from time to time too.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I figured that things would come to a head, but I didn't think that it would happen quite so undeliberately. I really emphasize for Bandana, especially because I think her last comment, if not a smart move, was still very truthful.

[Porthos]

The Paladins would be pitching fits...

Q

Considering that paladins and pirates tend to have slighty different worldviews, I would think that would be a given.

I have no doubt that Julio lead the Mechane into dangers that Andi did not understand, that were not explained to her. But rather than such history being a reason to give Bandana some leeway, Andi is using her past history of frustration to take it out on Bandana. IMO.

At the same time, Julio earned that trust through many successful adventures*. Bandana hasn't earned it yet.

* Also, for all we know, bonks on the head happen every once in a while on the Mechane. Usually during sweeps.

Being thrust with the title of Captain goes a long way. But not necessarily ALL the way.

Especially on a crew of pirates who aren't as discliplined as your standard soldier regiment.

And, really, comparing this to soldiers with defined laws and traditions seems a bit... off. Being the captain of a pirate ship means that one probably SHOULD be a little more, hmmm, flexibile when it comes to dealing with the crew. A little more diplomacy as it were.

Just sitting around saying, "I'm the captain, do what I say" is going to lead to problems if the situation gets bad enough.

[aurilee]

What mission? Bandanna's personal crusade to save the world isn't Andi's mission, and she doesn't see why it has to be the Mechane's mission either. Which is what this mutiny is all about.

From a pirate's perspective, the life is supposed to be preying on defenseless merchants who can't fight back. Fighting is something to be done only when you can't outrun a warship, as a last resort.

Bandanna's continual taking of the Mechane into harm's way is something an adventurer or a hero does. But it's not what the crew of the Mechane signed on for. It's not their mission and, as happens to leaders who ignore crew morale, she got hit from behind. Happens in the real world to unpopular officers from time to time too.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

As I said, Andi doesn't believe in the mission. Which is why it's barely on her priority list.

There is *a* mission though, just not one that Andi cares to partake in.

At this point though, they're knee-deep into the mission, so abandoning it now is a somewhat questionable decision.

[Kish]

Gonna say, Andi shouldn't have snapped like that. Obviously. In the wrong and all that.

But Bandana hasn't exactly been covering herself in glory this whole time, either.

No, she didn't act rashly enough to deserve a bonk on the head. Stated in advance.

But her leadership skills? Well, I haven't exactly been impressed with them this whole time. She should have realized the tension building between her and Andi (and by proxy a good chunk of the rest of the ship) and diffused it before it ever got to this point.

This was a classic dysfunctional relationship between two people and it finally snapped when enough weight was put on it.

I'm not sure Bandana could have defused it, without doing something she wasn't going to do for good reasons (i.e., stepping down as Acting Captain for Andi). She's consistently listened to concerns from the crew--including Andi--and addressed them. In the previous strip, she explained why she wasn't going to use Andi's "turn off the pass" plan, agreed that they should do something, and ordered increasing speed (with immediate success, i.e., the giant currently falling from the side of the Mechane). She didn't point out that Andi was the engineer and should be engineering until Andi called her a stupid little brat who should do what Andi told her. Andi just wasn't looking for the acting captain addressing her concerns; she was looking for her subordinate to quit with the delusions of not being a subordinate and start obeying.

[talkamancer]

5 pages of comments to read, wanted to say I loved how the barrier spoke stopped you seeing her eyes. Lovely schrodinger cartoon.

[Keltest]

Argh...

Andi, how on earth did you get to become an engineer, let alone head engineer on an airship, without any sort of critical thinking skills? Gaah. I know conflict drives the plot, but don't they have enough problems as it is right now? I hope theres a darn good payoff for this, because pointless stupidity is one of me serious storytelling peeves.

[WhovianBeast]

The real question is, who will be the first to discover it and who will be the first to confront it. My guess is that Elan discovers it and shouts to Roy->Roy is in the middle of fighting, but yells at Andi->V, Belk, and Haley realize the ship is turning (after killing the last frost giant) and panic->Elan wails impotently as Haley is seemingly left behind->Convenient wand is convenient and at least two return safely to the ship

[KorvinStarmast]

What mission? Bandanna's personal crusade to save the world isn't Andi's mission, and she doesn't see why it has to be the Mechane's mission either. Which is what this mutiny is all about.

From a pirate's perspective, the life is supposed to be preying on defenseless merchants who can't fight back. Fighting is something to be done only when you can't outrun a warship, as a last resort.

I seem to recall that Roy and company paid them 200 gp per person, and all of the crew were OK except the eternal bitch Andi.

Strip 1028

See also Haley digging into her pile of gold to repair Mechane, strip 959.

[Porthos]

I'm not sure Bandana could have defused it, without doing something she wasn't going to do for good reasons (i.e., stepping down as Acting Captain for Andi).

She probably could have had a long sit down chat with her when she saw the backtalk starting. If not after the first one, then the second one.

I'm talking strips and strips ago.

I recall her having a conversation with her, but I don't think it was long enough/good enough.

But, as has been noted, people sitting around solving their problems like adults probably isn't something that is going to catch on.

[Quibblicious]

What mission? Bandanna's personal crusade to save the world isn't Andi's mission, and she doesn't see why it has to be the Mechane's mission either. Which is what this mutiny is all about.

From a pirate's perspective, the life is supposed to be preying on defenseless merchants who can't fight back. Fighting is something to be done only when you can't outrun a warship, as a last resort.

Bandanna's continual taking of the Mechane into harm's way is something an adventurer or a hero does. But it's not what the crew of the Mechane signed on for. It's not their mission and, as happens to leaders who ignore crew morale, she got hit from behind. Happens in the real world to unpopular officers from time to time too.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The crew doesn't get to decide the mission. They may not even know the mission. It comes either from the captain or an outside authority.

As an example: The USS Indianapolis knew they had a valuable mission but the crew itself never knew the mission. The The USS Indianapolis was the ship that carried the atomic weapons to the airbase where the B-29s were deployed to eventually carry the weapons to their targets.

The crew had no need to know the mission. Telling them may put the mission at risk. So you tell them exactly what they need to know and not much more. Pirate crews operate somewhat differently but it's not uncommon to read about a captain who kept his crew in the dark until it was necessary.

Q

[Porthos]

Argh...

Andi, how on earth did you get to become an engineer, let alone head engineer on an airship, without any sort of critical thinking skills? Gaah. I know conflict drives the plot, but don't they have enough problems as it is right now? I hope theres a darn good payoff for this, because pointless stupidity is one of me serious storytelling peeves.

Andi thinks everyone is going to die right here, right now, if they kept following Bandana's plan. Can't save the world, if everyone here is dead, no?

And, besides, it WAS a moment of frustration there. Well, not so much a moment but a volcanic eruption.

But it mostly stems from the PoV that Bandana is leading everyone to Certain Death.

Is she right to think that? Well from a character point of view it only matters if she has cause to think that.

And I think it's been well established from her PoV that it has. Might be stupid, but it is reasonable. From a narrative standpoint, that is.

[KorvinStarmast]

But it mostly stems from the PoV that Bandana is leading everyone to Certain Death.

FWIW: Christopher Columbus had to deal with near mutiny during his first voyage to the new World.
IIRC, Henry Hudson's last voyage ended with mutiny and he was cast adrift.

Per your points, Rich's narrative draws form plausible historical precedent.

[Forikroder]

She probably could have had a long sit down chat with her when she saw the backtalk starting. If not after the first one, then the second one.

I'm talking strips and strips ago.

I recall her having a conversation with her, but I don't think it was long enough/good enough.

But, as has been noted, people sitting around solving their problems like adults probably isn't something that is going to catch on.

Andi has been contesting every decision Bandana has made and made it clear she doesnt consider her to be the real captain

theres no way to defuse that, Andi does not respect Bandana and refuses to

[Porthos]

The crew doesn't get to decide the mission. They may not even know the mission. It comes either from the captain or an outside authority.

As an example: The USS Indianapolis knew they had a valuable mission but the crew itself never knew the mission. The The USS Indianapolis was the ship that carried the atomic weapons to the airbase where the B-29s were deployed to eventually carry the weapons to their targets.

The crew had no need to know the mission. Telling them may put the mission at risk. So you tell them exactly what they need to know and not much more. Pirate crews operate somewhat differently but it's not uncommon to read about a captain who kept his crew in the dark until it was necessary.

Q

At the same time, having an inexperienced captain who has personality conflicts with a member of the crew suddenly run into MAJOR PROBLEMS on their maiden voyage is a time honored tradtion in storytelling.

In fact, if that specific situation in storytelling ain't a trope, it should be.

[Kish]

These particular pirates--well, their captain is Julio Scoundrel, remember? Rescued lots of the brides-to-be of a borderline-epic evil warlord at the altar? Cares about money to a limited extent--probably close to the extent he cares about actually helping people--but mainly cares about looking dashing? I kind of doubt his crew is used to staying far away from anything more dangerous than a merchant ship (even without considering that that would mean needing to classify the Tarquin fight and the story in Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales as statistical outliers from an entirely speculative norm).

[KorvinStarmast]

At the same time, having an inexperienced captain who has personality conflicts with a member of the crew suddenly run into MAJOR PROBLEMS on their maiden voyage is a time honored tradtion in storytelling.

In fact, if that specific situation in storytelling ain't a trope, it should be.

Case in point, Captain Bligh and Fletcher Christian. (Oh, wait, that wasn't just a movie, it was actual history). Unlike Bandana, who is mostly a decent person, Captain Bligh was an asshat. He was also mutineed against when governor of New South Wales.

Fifteen years after the Bounty mutiny, he was appointed Governor of New South Wales in Australia, with orders to clean up the corrupt rum trade of the New South Wales Corps. His actions directed against the trade resulted in the so-called Rum Rebellion, during which Bligh was (again) placed under arrest and deposed from his command.

[ti'esar]

She probably could have had a long sit down chat with her when she saw the backtalk starting. If not after the first one, then the second one.

I'm talking strips and strips ago.

I recall her having a conversation with her, but I don't think it was long enough/good enough.

But, as has been noted, people sitting around solving their problems like adults probably isn't something that is going to catch on.

Andi's fundamental position has been that Bandana simply does not deserve and has no right to be captain. That might not have led to mutiny under other circumstances, but I don't really see it being resolved by a long talk either.