Results 1 to 30 of 44
Thread: No martial controller?
-
2019-05-15, 08:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Gender
No martial controller?
I noticed there isn't a martial controller, the closest is the Seeker. Was this just an oversight or is this not possible within the framework of the game?
Edit: asking because I want to make a martials only game/setting but the lack of a controller option kind of shoehorns people.
-
2019-05-15, 09:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Shameland (4e Forums)
Re: No martial controller?
It's possible, largely because Controller is a *very* poorly defined (from a mechanical perspective) role: it's the only role that is literally defined *exclusively* by its power selection and is intended to include both control/debillitative effects as well as large AoEs. I blame the entirety of this upon the assumption that Wizards should be the "default" controller while attempting to preserve the ridiculous "Wizards can do anything with the right spell" design that Wizards have had in the past. Personally, I find it to be a better solution to just separate the AoE from the control effects and just make artillery and controller separate role (like they do with the NPC roles).
However, there *is* indeed a Martial Controller. The Hunter Ranger from Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdom is, in fact a controller. The problem is that, compared to pretty much every other Controller in the game, it's a worse controller and a better striker (it's in that weird Striker/Controller hybrid region that Warlock finds itself in), since it doesn't get much more than an area burst 1 (albeit a high damage and extremely long range area burst 1) for AoE purposes and it's only got single target control effects (albeit higher than normal damage ones with extremely long range).
You could feasibly reinterpret Seeker as a Martial Controller (barring a few of the more explicitly supernatural effects), but Seeker isn't particularly good because it lacks feat and splatbook support (ironically, Hunter Ranger MC Seeker is extremely good because Hunters are pretty much entirely Ranged Basic driven and one of the few Seeker feats allows Hunters to add their DEX twice to Ranged Basic damage rolls). Thankfully, Controller is probably the least necessary of the roles so it's not a huge loss to your party's functionality not to have one (a good Controller with the right powers can turn a fight into a laugh, but nothing they bring to the party is what I would consider "essential", like the Nova/DPR capability of a Striker, the consolidation of incoming damage like a Defender, or the in-combat healing and increased HS efficiency of a Leader).
-
2019-05-15, 10:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Gender
-
2019-05-15, 10:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
Re: No martial controller?
-
2019-05-15, 11:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Australia
Re: No martial controller?
It really is a hole in the system isn't it?
4th ed specifically invites "reskinning" to change the flavor text.
So you could take any controller and declare them "martial" with minimal game effect. You have a martial wizard? Call them a "Grenadier" They make their alchemical grenades and carry them on bandoleers.
Redescribe your slide effect as "A hail of arrows forcing the target to duck for cover"
Your martial druid doesn't turn into a bear, he's a beserker who goes feral and uses a pair of gauntlet axes for beastform powers
-
2019-05-16, 12:28 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Gender
Re: No martial controller?
Not OP, should be fine. Though fighters and rogues can lean pretty far toward controller if that's how you want to build 'em.
Out of curiousity, in your martials-only game, will you be allowing MC or hybridization for nonmartial classes? That would open things up too, controller-wise.
-
2019-05-16, 01:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Gender
Re: No martial controller?
The plan is tentatively to expand the ritual list, give everyone access to arcana, nature or religion (trinary at character build) and all magic is ritual based. The goal is more of a Conan or mythic feel; magic is rarely used in combat but instead something you do in a more complicated way.
4E has the best combat by far for martials/mundanes, which is why I keep drifting back to it for this.
-
2019-05-16, 02:39 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Gender
Re: No martial controller?
Nice. Good flavor.
-
2019-05-16, 08:48 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2016
-
2019-05-16, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Australia
-
2019-05-16, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Gender
-
2019-05-17, 12:08 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
Re: No martial controller?
That still leaves Greek fire and Roman fire pots.
-
2019-05-17, 12:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Gender
-
2019-05-22, 12:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2019
Re: No martial controller?
@OP
I’m in the process of developing powers for a martial controller. Right now the whole class is broken in the sense that it functions more like a low-end striker with a focus on controlling effects (like Warlocks and Rogues) more than a controller. After I get my post count up a little I’m planning to post in in the homebrew column with a discussion thread here.
-
2019-05-22, 12:41 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Shameland (4e Forums)
Re: No martial controller?
Years ago, I made a martial controller that I called the Scout (based vaguely off of the Scout from 3.X with the Skirmish class feature). You either used off-hand weapons or spears and for the large part functioned similar to how the melee-weapon Seeker ended up manifesting. The major difference was that I included a Trap functionality for the daily powers that allowed them to place traps on the field that had to be triggered by enemies (or with a standard action on the part of the Scout) and, if they weren't triggered, the trap could be "retained" without expending the use of the power.
My group playtested it a bit and it seemed to go pretty well, but it become kind of irrelevant after the Seeker came out since it was so similar to it.
-
2019-05-22, 12:46 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2019
-
2019-05-22, 11:52 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Shameland (4e Forums)
Re: No martial controller?
Last edited by ThePurple; 2019-05-22 at 11:52 AM.
-
2019-05-23, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
- Gender
-
2019-05-24, 09:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Shameland (4e Forums)
Re: No martial controller?
Done. I never quite finished it, so you'll notice quite a few names missing and there still a few feats I need to create, but it's got the full quantity of powers, PPs, etc. that you'd expect out of a 4e class.
-
2019-06-04, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2018
Re: No martial controller?
Someone I used to game with wrote up a pugilist/grappler type controller. Someone actually used it in game and I remember the grabbing enemies and throwing them at other enemies was especially effective.
This was a while back but I can ask if he still has it.
-
2019-06-04, 10:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Shameland (4e Forums)
Re: No martial controller?
I tried to create a viable concept for a grappler, but 4e just doesn't really support the ruleset since the whole "roll to grab, sustain the grab, then roll to execute a throw" thing becomes really cumbersome and doesn't really work appreciably well compared to just doing an attack. Also, a melee only controller is at a severe disadvantage (even if you're giving them "ranged" attacks via throwing enemies at other enemies, they still need an enemy in melee range to have a ranged attack). Inevitably, it just becomes a monk without Full Discipline, which is just kinda boring.
Also, there's some sim/nar issues involved since, by the mechanics and for balance purposes, a medium or small sized creature should have no issues immobilizing a large, huge, etc. creature, it doesn't really make much sense. Forced movement can make sense in a kind of "hit them in the right spot and they'll stumble there" kind of way, but someone who weighs less than the weapon you're wielding holding you in place by the ankle is kind of hard to swallow. Suspension of disbelief becomes problematic when the 30 ton dragon is being held down by the 200 lb humanoid grappler.
-
2019-06-05, 05:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2016
-
2019-06-05, 10:25 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
Re: No martial controller?
Beowulf is often described as having barehandedly having ripped the arm off of a scaly giant(Grendel) whose scales made him impossible to hurt with weapons? Whose head was so large it required 4 men to carry it?
Suspension of disbelief needs to be consistent. If one can justify Huge Dragons, meaning 17-30+ level Solo monsters, one should also be able to justify a grappler in their Epic Destiny transcending mortality being able to grapple them.
-
2019-06-05, 05:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Shameland (4e Forums)
Re: No martial controller?
I always saw the thing with Grendel being immune to weapons as an aspect of hide being so thick. From a materials science perspective, a material can be strong and tough enough to resist bludgeoning and hacking blows but still be vulnerable to strong enough torsion or other "ripping" forces applied to it. This is what I always figured was what was supposed to have happened: Grendel's hide was so thick it couldn't be cut or injured via bludgeoning force, so Beowulf just used a different avenue of attack.
As for the head, I never read that it was so big it required 4 men to carry it. Beowulf carried it out himself; the 4 men that carried it were doing it as an honorguard kind of thing. As such, Grendel wasn't *that* huge. He was big, but he was small enough to get into Heorot and "sneak" around within it. I would venture that Grendel was supposed to be in the region of 8-10' tall, which is a giant in the context of humans but not really a "giant" within the context of D&D.
Suspension of disbelief is a weird thing. Everyone's got a different take on it.
-
2019-06-05, 06:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
Re: No martial controller?
Right. Just saying, if the choices were:
An Epic Tier PC managing to grab a 30 ton dragon, because that's pretty much the only place 30 ton dragons exist.
A non-Epic Tier PC managing to rip a scaly giant's arm off when that arm is immune to sword blows.
I find the 2nd less plausible from a suspension of disbelief.
-
2019-06-05, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2017
Re: No martial controller?
I guess video games have made me feel like this type of thing is normal. Midna is probably small sized and she stops a charging gargantuan Ganon, although admittedly magic was involved. Earlier in the game though Link stops a rolling goron with nothing but heavy footwear and grit.
-
2019-06-05, 08:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Shameland (4e Forums)
Re: No martial controller?
Personally, I find the 1st less plausible because grabbing and holding someone in place is accomplished by forcing them to carry you (and a lot of skill goes into making them experience more of your weight and inhibiting their movement by tangling up their limbs; there's force multiplication involved) but a 200 lb person is less than 1% of the body weight of said 30 ton dragon and doesn't really have the reach to be able to tangle up those limbs. It's a bit like a mouse being able to prevent a fully grown human from moving just because it jumped on their leg: it might be *super hard* to get off, especially if it knows how to stay on, but it's not gonna be able to physically stop you from moving around.
At least with the Beowulf arm-ripping, you're simply having to disbelieve that a human being can have such an insane level of strength that they can rip the arm off of a big, scaly beast. In both cases, there's a bunch of strength involved, but only in the first case are you dealing with somehow having to explain why a trivial weight is now somehow able to prevent an even more powerful beast from moving.
-
2019-06-05, 09:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
Re: No martial controller?
-
2019-06-05, 10:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2018
Re: No martial controller?
Sorry I brought it up I was just trying to help the OP sheesh
-
2019-06-05, 10:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Shameland (4e Forums)
Re: No martial controller?