The joys of a properly moderated forum

[AtlanteanTroll]

I doubt the OP would say any forum that lacked Rich Burlew installed mods lacked "properly" moderated.

[Asta Kask]

Ok. For a moderated site, there is a group, or person, on each site, that sets goals. They then set a number of rules designed to fulfill these goals. The moderators' role is to see to it that these goals are met, by enforcing the rules.

There are a number of issues going on here. First of all, the goals can be realistic or not, they can be well defined or not, they can be conscious or unconscious. The rules can be well- or poorly designed to meet those goals. And finally, the moderators can be competent or not, and they can agree with the goals or not.

If the goals are unrealistic, or the rules are poorly designed, then it can be impossible for the moderators to do their job, regardless of whether they are competent or not. If that is the case, then the question of whether the place is well moderated or not is impossible to answer. But if the rules are well-designed and the goals are realistic, then how well the forum is moderated can be measured by how close it follows the goals.

Something like that. It's not airtight, but something like that.

[Sorrcerousflux]

After seeing this thread I went back through the forum rules and have decided (for myself) that this is well moderated forum, not because of the strictness of its mods or the politeness of its users but because its rules are refined and tasteful, and the moderators are active.

I have yet to have a negative experience on the playground (im relatively new so maybe take this with a grain of salt) and I attribute this to the forum being well controlled.

[Bulldog Psion]

Given the extreme imperfection of the participants (i.e. humans), I'd have to say that this one of the best moderated forums around. The only way that you could have a completely conflict-free forum is not to have a forum at all.

I do have to ask, though -- don't threads like this usually end in tears?

[Arkhaic]

This thread will end in fire, brimstone and a flash of red light visible from the other side of the world.

I would say that the mods here seem to be decent people who interpret the rules as best as they can. The fact that a number of rules cause more problems than they solve (often causing inconsistent moderation when common sense is opposed by the rules) is very fitting for a forum discussing D&D 3.5.

[Slipperychicken]

This thread will end in fire, brimstone and a flash of red light visible from the other side of the world.

But we can enjoy it while it lasts, no? Or perhaps someone will lock this tinderbox if it starts to get out of hand. There is also the possibility, however slim, that this thread will descend gracefully down the front page, fading to obscurity with the same good feelings which brought it to life.

[Rodin]

I'd say that the forums here are heavily moderated, compared to any others I've been a part of. And I like it that way. The politics restriction can be constraining sometimes, but since politics always ends in tears I don't really miss em (plus, I can just go somewhere else if I really want to discuss it).

The biggest effect I've noticed is the lack of trolling and decreased number of flame wars. When the trolling is heavily restricted, less flame wars. When flame wars are forbidden, you get people being a lot more cautious. Yeah, discussions get heated and there's plenty of passive-agressive snark, but they're still discussions with actual content in them. And I swear a lot more people just don't even do that. It's one of the politest forums I've ever seen.

The overall atmosphere here is pretty relaxing. Part of it is good people in the community, and part of it is sensible moderating.

[Skeppio]

I'd say that the forums here are heavily moderated, compared to any others I've been a part of. And I like it that way. The politics restriction can be constraining sometimes, but since politics always ends in tears I don't really miss em (plus, I can just go somewhere else if I really want to discuss it).

The biggest effect I've noticed is the lack of trolling and decreased number of flame wars. When the trolling is heavily restricted, less flame wars. When flame wars are forbidden, you get people being a lot more cautious. Yeah, discussions get heated and there's plenty of passive-agressive snark, but they're still discussions with actual content in them. And I swear a lot more people just don't even do that. It's one of the politest forums I've ever seen.

The overall atmosphere here is pretty relaxing. Part of it is good people in the community, and part of it is sensible moderating.

I liken it to the Twilight Zone episode "It's a Good Life".
And forcing people to be cautious in the way this forum does doesn't make them better, it just means they'll lie more about what they're feeling and thinking. Trust me, off-site, there is so much talking and insulting behind peoples backs, you wouldn't believe.

[SiuiS]

Really? I find when people need to rely on being passive-aggressive rather than being more forward, they end up having to make far more scathing insults to be as effective without breaking the rules. Which in turn results in more people finding the most hurtful, vile retorts they can think of that can still slip under the bar of what is considered harassment, often ending up far more vitriolic than their more blunt insults would have been (since they could just post those without thinking and calculating). It fosters a far more arrogant, spiteful and condescending mindset in my experience.

I don't know. I much prefer being direct and open but not insulting as a rule. It is fully possible to be mature and still tell someone you find them repugnant and should probably part ways, for example.

I doubt the OP would say any forum that lacked Rich Burlew installed mods lacked "properly" moderated.

You are being too literal; the idea is that a forum is properly moderated when it has a goal established and the moderation achieves that goal. Anders stated directly that the Giant is the person who established the goal for this forum and for moderation of this forum, ergo, he would be the only one with perfect knowledge of it's success or failure. That in no way implies The Giant is some form of universal rubric, only that he is objective here.

[Skeppio]

I don't know. I much prefer being direct and open but not insulting as a rule. It is fully possible to be mature and still tell someone you find them repugnant and should probably part ways, for example.

You can be direct and open here? Not from what I've experienced.

[Yuki Akuma]

You can be direct and open here? Not from what I've experienced.

No one is ever honest on this board.

No, not even me.

[Kalmageddon]

You can be direct and open here? Not from what I've experienced.

Apparently so, though I'll admit that my record is far from spotless because of it. I certanly would agree that the foum doesn't encourage it, while it absolutely promotes clever and hurtful insults and even stealth bullying. Aside from the few sub-boards where important issues are almost never discussed I found this forum to have one of the most toxic communities I've ever seen. Thankfully, there are also a lot of users I respect, even if they are a lot less vocal, probably as a consequence.
There's just something in between scary and pathetic in seeing the lenght some people will go to try and scare users out of posting. Somehow, being wished cancer and called offensive slurs in the average gaming forum is not even remotely as offensive.

[Killer Angel]

Aside from the few sub-boards where important issues are almost never discussed I found this forum to have one of the most toxic communities I've ever seen.

are we on the same forum?
The playground it's not perfect, but frankly this seems too far excessive.

[SiuiS]

You can be direct and open here? Not from what I've experienced.

I do, generally. I find it liberating.

are we on the same forum?
The playground it's not perfect, but frankly this seems too far excessive.

Kal has a bit of history with the moral discussion etc. Side of things. Essentially, disagreements on the line between open discussion and insulting discussion, and objectivity. It happens with these sorts of things, and it's easy to view a place where everyone agrees with each other and disagrees with you as toxic. I've left places for the same reason.

Heck, I stopped going to the Roleplaying games section for a while after a 'trap' joke. Different strokes.

[Kalmageddon]

are we on the same forum?
The playground it's not perfect, but frankly this seems too far excessive.

We are, but we probably don't read the same threads.

[Mx.Silver]

I liken it to the Twilight Zone episode "It's a Good Life".
And forcing people to be cautious in the way this forum does doesn't make them better, it just means they'll lie more about what they're feeling and thinking. Trust me, off-site, there is so much talking and insulting behind peoples backs, you wouldn't believe.

Speaking for myself, I don't really care what people might be saying behind my back in places I don't visit. Nor do I see people feeling the need to insult people having to go off-site to do so as an indictment of the board's policies.

I don't know. I much prefer being direct and open but not insulting as a rule. It is fully possible to be mature and still tell someone you find them repugnant and should probably part ways, for example.

Agreed.

It should also be noted that 'not being honest' with people when said honesty would consist of insults and comments likely to provoke fights is generally seen as standard practice in the real world. At least in most areas of it I've encountered, anyway.

[Killer Angel]

We are, but we probably don't read the same threads.

Kal has a bit of history with the moral discussion etc. Side of things. Essentially, disagreements on the line between open discussion and insulting discussion, and objectivity. It happens with these sorts of things, and it's easy to view a place where everyone agrees with each other and disagrees with you as toxic. I've left places for the same reason.

Heck, I stopped going to the Roleplaying games section for a while after a 'trap' joke. Different strokes.

Well, the playground is a large place, so it could be. Sorry to hear it, though.
For what it's worth, Kal, you have my sympathies.

[Asta Kask]

I just wish I could dicsuss religion and politics here. But there are plenty of fora on the net for that kind of thing, so I don't miss it very much.

[comicshorse]

No one is ever honest on this board.

No, not even me.

But how can we believe you now ?

[Gwynfrid]

You can be direct and open here? Not from what I've experienced.

I am, as far as I can tell (always leave room for possible self-delusion). When I find that I can't write an honest answer without violating forum rules, I simply don't write anything at all. But that's pretty rare. Mostly, it's when any answer I can think of would be political.

Essentially, disagreements on the line between open discussion and insulting discussion, and objectivity. It happens with these sorts of things, and it's easy to view a place where everyone agrees with each other and disagrees with you as toxic. I've left places for the same reason.

Very true. Staying away is the best way to deal with this, both from the perspective of the forum (less flame wars) and one's own (less frustration and anger).

And forcing people to be cautious in the way this forum does doesn't make them better, it just means they'll lie more about what they're feeling and thinking.

IRL, this is what they call politeness, a basic skill we teach each other for the main purpose of not having fisticuffs all the time.

Trust me, off-site, there is so much talking and insulting behind peoples backs, you wouldn't believe.

That's certainly true, but I can't see it for myself, because my approach to this is to blissfully ignore the existence of such other sites. If a tree falls in the forest and I can't hear it, then as far as I'm concerned, it's still standing. I'm happier that way.

I just wish I could dicsuss religion and politics here. But there are plenty of fora on the net for that kind of thing, so I don't miss it very much.

Me too. But in my experience, only extra-heavy moderation, or a fairly limited audience, allows for a workable discussion of any depth on these subjects. I think it's fair enough that the moderators here don't want to dedicate that level of effort, considering it isn't the forum's focus in the first place, and they already have a ton of work as it is.

[Skeppio]

IRL, this is what they call politeness, a basic skill we teach each other for the main purpose of not having fisticuffs all the time.

There's a difference between being polite and flat-out lying to people because you'll get thrown out if you so much as say one negative thing.

[Yuki Akuma]

There's a difference between being polite and flat-out lying to people because you'll get thrown out if you so much as say one negative thing.

Here's a negative comment: I think your argument is wrong and has no basis in reality.

After all, I'm still here.

[Mx.Silver]

Me too. But in my experience, only extra-heavy moderation, or a fairly limited audience, allows for a workable discussion of any depth on these subjects. I think it's fair enough that the moderators here don't want to dedicate that level of effort, considering it isn't the forum's focus in the first place, and they already have a ton of work as it is.

Plus there's always PMs.

There's a difference between being polite and flat-out lying to people because you'll get thrown out if you so much as say one negative thing.

I wouldn't have thought you'd need to 'flat-out lie' to people very often (I've certainly never needed to), unless you consider not responding or engaging to be lying.

[Asta Kask]

There's a difference between being polite and flat-out lying to people because you'll get thrown out if you so much as say one negative thing.

If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

Now, this comment of yours may be about you flat-out lying, in which case I advise you to take a chill pill and stay out of threads that are likely to make the red mist descend. Or it may be about others, in which case my advise would be to familiarise yourself with the toupee fallacy. How do you know they're flat-out lying?

[Kalmageddon]

Well, the playground is a large place, so it could be. Sorry to hear it, though.
For what it's worth, Kal, you have my sympathies.

No need for that. But I appreciate the sentiment.

Spoiler: Speaking of toxicity...

Show

And SiuiS, once again, please refrain from making comments on me. <-- This is me asking politely, yet again, for the records. I've been instructed to do so.
I don't want to waste my time on this forum defending myself from misrepresentation.
Also don't bother answering, you are on my ignore list and I won't click "view post". I just read your post in Killer Angel's quote and I was displeased to find that you are still talking about me when you have no business doing so. You are as far form knowing me as anyone can ever be.

[TuggyNE]

You can be direct and open here? Not from what I've experienced.

I'm bending my forum break (which is for health reasons, not because I don't like it here) in order to say: Yes, definitely. I am direct and open essentially all the time*, and what's more I'm reasonably sure I don't stealth-bully anyone either. There are other posters in particular I'm aware of with similarly high standards (eggynack, Kelb Panthera, douglas, to name three off the top of my head), and a general mass of posts that manage that for the most part.

*If I disagree with someone's argument, I tell them so, and why; if I think some homebrew or houserule is flawed, I'll break out the reasons or calculations; if someone is being rude I may politely note that that's not really appropriate or useful. And if I just can't come up with anything to say that doesn't mess that up, I don't say anything: about half the time I open a new reply page, I close it again after drafting a post, although admittedly this is usually because I realized it wasn't particularly interesting, not because I was so infuriated I had to cool off instead of posting. Still.

[Asta Kask]

I think a lot of unpleasantness comes from us overestimating our knowledge about what other posters are like. A post really delivers very little information about the other poster, but we fool ourselves into thinking we know more than is really warranted. And as you would expect, our beliefs correspond to what we want to think anyway. So if two posters begin to have a suspicion that the other guy doesn't like them, they can drive each other down the path of mutual hostility very easily. And in both guys' experience, the other guy started it. And by the time we reach the open hostility stage, the two have invested so much into the belief that the other guy is a bastard that it will be virtually impossible to convince them otherwise (it's the same mechanism as with angry drunks - they can't interpret the minute signals we rely on to tell us if the other guy is aggressive).

[bluewind95]

No one is ever honest on this board.

No, not even me.

That's quite the generalization there. I assure you, I'm an honest person. It's not difficult for me. It would be more difficult to be dishonest, really. I just follow, for the most part, what Asta said right here:

If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

There's no need to be dishonest. If there's something I can't say because I'm upset and won't be nice about it, or it's against the rules, then I just don't say it. I walk away.

This is actually one of the nicest forums I've been on. There's some toxic people, yes. I suppose there's no way to help that, with a community this size. But on the whole, this forum is a wonderful place to be in.

[Bulldog Psion]

Mostly, I treat the forums a lot like real life.

1. Where I agree, I voice agreement.

2. Where things are neutral, I offer an opinion based on what I think, which may or may not be in sync with the opinion of others.

3. Where there is a topic being discussed in a hostile manner, or where I feel a hostile response bubbling up in me, I disengage and do not participate. Like in real life, if someone is off on a political rant I find irritating, I don't say, "listen up, you stupid clown, why don't you go blank yourself with a blankity blanking blank," I just try to switch the subject or let the conversation die on its own.

This statement is kind of a #2. I disagree with some of the posters in this thread, but not enough to specifically confront them (in which case I would leave without saying anything). Instead, I'm offering my view without comparing it to anyone else's, in order to provide another perspective without getting into who's 'right' and who's 'wrong.'

Note, of course, that this is what I try to do. Occasionally, I make a huge gaffe, say something profoundly stupid and infuriating, or get pulled into some argument against my better judgment. But I try to follow the system above. I don't feel that I'm being forced into conformity, but that I am practicing social skills.

It is possible, in my opinion, to be a free agent and a candid speaker without becoming an enfant terrible.

In fact, it's probably easier to be polite on a forum, because it's easier to just not participate and/or exit a conversation online. In real life, when someone's up in your face screaming at you, you can't exit the situation other than by literally running away. So your choice is to either greet their aggression with stony silence, or roar back, which is a different judgment call.

There are a handful of threads each month that I'm interested in, but which I refrain from posting in because I know that I am unlikely to remain calm. There are even a few statements by Mr. Burlew that irritate me profoundly.

However, overall, I find the atmosphere here to be pleasant, the people to be mostly polite, the snark to be occasionally funny in addition to infuriating, and the moderation to be mostly fair. So yes, I would say this is a properly moderated forum for me. Others may have other opinions, which of course are just as valid as mine. I am frequently wrong, in fact, but my truth is that this is a nice place to hang out.

[Douglas]

There are other posters in particular I'm aware of with similarly high standards (eggynack, Kelb Panthera, douglas, to name three off the top of my head)

I wasn't expecting a random personal compliment in a thread I hadn't posted in today. Thanks.

Regarding "stealth bullying", if it's recognizable as bullying I believe that would make it still against the rules here. If you see it, I would say report it. If it's not recognizable as bullying, then is it really bullying at all?