Making the Druid not so Zilla

[Sir Iguejo]

Ill start by pointing out the reasons why Im trying to nerf the druid:

Im DMing a campaign based in England before Alfred, the Great (Anglo-Saxon Englaland).
This means: Four kingdoms - Northumbria, Mercia,East Anglia and Wessex and constant viking raids from the north. (Search Danelaw on Wikipedia for detailed info). I twisted history here and there to make magic, monsters and the core races possible.

Edit: Low magic campaign: Common people know that the prayings of some priest are capable of removing diseases, that there are witches in the forest, dragons in the mountains, seamonsters,etc. but most people think that these are not more than legends or false histories

PC's:
Dante Baltazare, the young - LG Human Fighter 1/Christian God Paladin2 - From Italian City-States, on Holy mission.(GitP Forum's Fawsto)
Patrick Villon- NG Halfling Wizard 2 - Frank student researching Monsters swarming Great Britain island
Runt Ulskar - CN Human Barbarian 2/Necromancer 1 - A former viking raider, now studying Necromancy to bring a dear friend back to life
Brunhilde - LG Human Odin Paladin 3 - Danish girl trying to prove her usefulness in combat
And the Source of my problems:
WindSlash - TN Human Druid 3 - From the Celtic lands, trying to exterminate the unnatural monsters that now swarm his home

We have no power-gamer, Combo machine, Batmans or whatever.

The problem:

This party was doing alright, beating easily CR1 encounters, suffering a little on CR3 ones, et cetera
But suddenly the Druid came over spamming Summon Nature Ally hypogriphs and hogging all monsters intended to make the party run in fear.

I think that later on the 6~10 levels, WindSlash will kill everything that moves on the first round, WildShaping and casting bite-of-the-X spells,leaving no fun to the other party members.

I want to slow down his combat abilities, maybe by giving him ShapeShift
from PHBII, maybe cutting down full spellcasting, IDK.

So im asking you some help finding a solution for this matter. I fell that this Druid is unwillingly putting my campaign at risk.



My first idea was giving the Druid the same spells per day as the bard, capping at 6th spell level on 16th class level and giving the ShapeShift ability to him.
So,
any good ideas???


thank you on advance

EDIT - They leveled recently, but I forgot to update my counter-sheets
This explains the hypogriph summoning

[Tempest Fennac]

You could use more enermies to counteract SNA, and when he gets Wildshape, you cold ban Natural Spell and/or the more powerful forms (alternatively, you could make all of the encounters slightly more difficult so that the Druid doesn't seem to be as overpowered as it is).

[Sir Iguejo]

You could use more enermies to counteract SNA, and when he gets Wildshape, you cold ban Natural Spell and/or the more powerful forms (alternatively, you could make all of the encounters slightly more difficult so that the Druid doesn't seem to be as overpowered as it is).

Yeah, I tried this yesterday, but the other party members suffered like hell and the druid ended like 1/2 HP total. Not a good decision for the entire campaign.

[Wordmiser]

I have to say that I love his character's name.[/irony]

Anyway, start by asking him how he's casting second level spells at with a second level Druid.

Then I would go for a nerf along the lines of what you've said (though I would also give him some other benefits with that severe a nerf... maybe rebuild him with 6+Int skills and Track as a bonus feat?)

[Tempest Fennac]

One problem with giving the Druid Bard spell progression is that it would nerf the party's overall healing potential (even if the Paladins have really high Cha, Lay on Hnads would still run out quite quickly early on).

[Chronicled]

Not only is there a PHB2 substitution feature that replaces Wildshape and the Animal Companion (Shapeshift variant), but on the previous page there's a variant that replaces the spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally. I believe it lets a druid spontaneously lose a spell to give fast healing to the party for a number of rounds.

With both of those, your druid should be just fine power-level wise. The Shapeshift variant is cool enough that most players won't argue with the switch unless they really wanted the animal companion (in which case, giving them one that using the stats of the ranger's animal companion isn't especially game-breaking), and you can point out that the party will love him for the spontaneous fast healing.

Hope that helps!

[Tempest Fennac]

See page 39 of http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules...asses-Base.pdf for details on the relevant alternative Druids. I'd agre that the Spontaneous Rejuvenation variant would be the most useful choice considering the other party's classes, but I suppose you could combine the 2 variants to nerf Wildshape and the repeated SNAs.

[Sir Iguejo]

One problem with giving the Druid Bard spell progression is that it would nerf the party's overall healing potential (even if the Paladins have really high Cha, Lay on Hnads would still run out quite quickly early on).

This can be fixed with a little more wands, scrolls, potions and the like

Not only is there a PHB2 substitution feature that replaces Wildshape and the Animal Companion (Shapeshift variant), but on the previous page there's a variant that replaces the spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally. I believe it lets a druid spontaneously lose a spell to give fast healing to the party for a number of rounds.

then the druid would prepare the entire spell list as SNA

[Tempest Fennac]

At least if he did that, he wouldn't be able to use other spells, which would lead to him being unable to contribute effectively if SNA isn't practical.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

yeah...adjusting the power 'up' to compensate for a one or a few really strong party members doesn't 'make it fair' it screws the others. They get relegated to sidekick, or just being helpers while the big boys battle it out.

We had this problem in a LARP...lots of high powered characters, no middle ground, and several starting characters...anything comparable for the lowbies would be demolished by the stronger characters...anythign that could challenge the big guys would murder a lowbie if they were noticed.

We mainly had to separate groups of players to compensate...to find other things people could do. There have to be ways to design challenges so that the other players geta chance to do stuff and aren't always 2nd fiddle...

[Chronicled]

then the druid would prepare the entire spell list as SNA

Then he'll be like a wizard or cleric that only prepares Summon Monster. Hardly problematic. Just keep an eye on what he's able to summon (hippogriffs with SNA 2? Something is wrong here... either he misread the table or he's cheating), and you'll be fine. It's the spontaneous part of it that makes it so powerful, IMO, since it lets you retain your flexibilty with a myriad of other spells but still have a meatshield or several handy at a moment's notice.

[ZeroNumerous]

Just drop off Wild Shape and don't get him anything in return. Then Druid is just a full-caster with a puppy following him around.

[JackMage666]

I personally like my druid fix. Take away all spellcasting, give them Full BAB, a d10 or d12 HD, and Shapeshift.

EDIT - Of course, they don't have Wildshape.

[Chronicled]

I personally like my druid fix. Take away all spellcasting, give them Full BAB, a d10 or d12 HD, and Shapeshift.

EDIT - Of course, they don't have Wildshape.

Wouldn't that just make them like a Barbarian, but better? I like the concept, but it might need some work.

[Sir Iguejo]

Then he'll be like a wizard or cleric that only prepares Summon Monster. Hardly problematic. Just keep an eye on what he's able to summon (hippogriffs with SNA 2? Something is wrong here... either he misread the table or he's cheating), and you'll be fine. It's the spontaneous part of it that makes it so powerful, IMO, since it lets you retain your flexibilty with a myriad of other spells but still have a meatshield or several handy at a moment's notice.

SRD Summon Natures Ally Table
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sum...uresAllyII.htm

Summoned Creature
Bear, black (animal)
Crocodile (animal)
Dire badger
Dire bat
Elemental, Small (any)
Hippogriff
Shark, Medium1 (animal)
Snake, Medium viper (animal)
Squid1 (animal)
Wolverine (animal)


The problem is that they are fighting mostly with bandits (English and Vikings) and Low CR monsters. They can do little against a hippogriff's full attack. It will get easier by level 5, when NPC's get Dispel Magic and PC will be known by the hippo/dire wolf(SNAIII) summoner.

Again: I want to cut down the druid spellcasting or the wildshaping tree, but in a balanced way. I dont buy the fact that druids are full-casters. If I were Monte Cook, they would get weaker/less spells

[Chronicled]

SRD Summon Natures Ally Table
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sum...uresAllyII.htm

Summoned Creature
Bear, black (animal)
Crocodile (animal)
Dire badger
Dire bat
Elemental, Small (any)
Hippogriff
Shark, Medium1 (animal)
Snake, Medium viper (animal)
Squid1 (animal)
Wolverine (animal)


The problem is that they are fighting mostly with bandits (English and Vikings) and Low CR monsters. They can do little against a hippogriff's full attack. It will get easier by level 5, when NPC's get Dispel Magic and PC will be known by the hippo/dire wolf(SNAIII) summoner.

Again: I want to cut down the druid spellcasting or the wildshaping tree, but in a balanced way. I dont buy the fact that druids are full-casters. If I were Monte Cook, they would get weaker/less spells

Here I go not checking my facts again... yep, that means it's time for me to get some sleep.

Perhaps a few enemy summoners are in order? (It figures that he's true neutral and you can't have the Magic Circle against _______ means of stopping summoned critters.)

There's always the tried-and-true anti-caster method of DMing: lots of daily encounters. Your druid can own one or two of them before he's out of spells, after which he'll be contributing much less.

[Tempest Fennac]

That would probably have a negative impact on the Wizard, though. Incidentally, what sort of spells does the Wizard use, and is he specialised?

[Inyssius Tor]

But he's also got a straight wizard, who can't fall back on being a passable tank and commanding his giant deadly wolf.

EDIT: Ninja'd at 3:40 AM!

[JackMage666]

Wouldn't that just make them like a Barbarian, but better? I like the concept, but it might need some work.

Wouldn't a Druid be even just Wildshape be better than a Barbarian?

Even one that trades the Shapeshift for Wildshape is better, mainly due to the spells.

[Sir Iguejo]

The wizard is going full-support and item creator.
so thats out of the question

and making the wizard stronger wouldnt help the paladins and the barb

[ZeroNumerous]

Again: I just advocate removing Wild Shape and giving him nothing in return. Then you have a full caster and his dog.

Summons: Enemy druids exist too, ya know.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Druid variant?
Edit:should work now

[Tempest Fennac]

That link won't work for some reason. Also, Chronicled mentioned the variants and I posted another link to some information about them.

[Sir Iguejo]

Again: I just advocate removing Wild Shape and giving him nothing in return. Then you have a full caster and his dog.

Summons: Enemy druids exist too, ya know.

WildShape is the ability that makes the druid the druid. and its cool. so either shapeshifting or less wildshape uses per day/per week


I dont want my PCs lost between a huge battle of hippogriffs

Im thinking about giving him the track feat and a weaker animal companion and nerfing the spellcasting.
making him look like a blend of druid and ranger

[Tempest Fennac]

Alternatively, you could try to get him to mult-class as a Ranger for RP purposes (considering how there's a Barbarian/Necromancer in the party, a Druid/ranger wouldn't really look out of place).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

My favorite is the wild shape variant, along with a talk with the player about summoning and how it affects balance. don't ban it, but suggest that it be reserved for hard battles, and that buffs/debuffs are more effective and fun for your allies.

[Inyssius Tor]

... I hate to state the obvious amidst all of these elaborate and drastic alterations, but have you tried removing the hippogriff from the Summon Nature's Ally spell?

Or moving Summon Nature's Ally spells up a level?

Or removing them entirely?

[Tempest Fennac]

That is actually a good point. The problem is with persuading the player that it would be a good idea to do so (the other players would probably agree with removing them, so voting on the issue would be a fair way of doing it). Incidentaly, what's wrong with elaborate suggestions? There's a chance that they may wor out for the best.

[Sir Iguejo]

... I hate to state the obvious amidst all of these elaborate and drastic alterations, but have you tried removing the hippogriff from the Summon Nature's Ally spell?

Or moving Summon Nature's Ally spells up a level?

Or removing them entirely?

There is the Dire Wolf Black Bear, with the same attack modifiers and damage, but a little lower AC.
And this is the druid main weapon at lower levels, so I dont think its a good idea to complete remove SNA. Only one hippo is ok, the problem is that this druid abuses SNA, summoning like 2 hippos + loads of wolves for full attack and flank. Maybe its a good idea just to half the spell duration (1round/level is too much) or capping the number of HD the druid control at Lvl+Wis or just Lvl?

My favorite is the wild shape variant, along with a talk with the player about summoning and how it affects balance. don't ban it, but suggest that it be reserved for hard battles, and that buffs/debuffs are more effective and fun for your allies.

Alternatively, you could try to get him to mult-class as a Ranger for RP purposes (considering how there's a Barbarian/Necromancer in the party, a Druid/ranger wouldn't really look out of place).

Ill try that... thanks

edit: wrote wolf but I meant bear

[Chronicled]

Wouldn't a Druid be even just Wildshape be better than a Barbarian?

Even one that trades the Shapeshift for Wildshape is better, mainly due to the spells.

The spells make them better, but a barbarian can still out-melee them to a certain extent since the bonuses granted by Shapeshift are enhancement and don't stack with their spells. The medium BAB and d8 HD leave much to be desired when they can't be buffed more than what the animal form gives (whereas the barbarian can rage and get Bull's Strength, for instance). If a druid had full BAB and a d12, they'd be trading typeless bonuses for the ability to have them all day long. Then it'd just be a comparison of the special abilities and saves. At least with the druid as is, the barbarian is the most effective killing machine during the first few levels (arguably edging out the armored riding dog+druid, even).