Why the hate for Balance?

[Thoughtbot360]

Every once in a while, I see someone who equates game balance with uniformity. We have all heard the Fighter vs. Wizard topics, but whats interesting is that in every one of those forums, I hear things like:

-Duh! Wizards can remake reality and Fighters can just swing a sword really, really hard. Of course Wizards should be stronger.
-Balance=Uniformity. Every character would be just like every other character if we had balance.
-Since when was Balance such a big deal?
-D&D isn't Anime! (In response to any mention of the possibility of buffing fighters.

My view can best be summed up in this quote from the Zodiac FFRPG Forums:

RPGs are team games, and there's no reason that a game shouldn't make every effort to ensure that different character classes or builds are useful and valuable members of the team. There's a difference between powergaming and just wanting to contribute.

Thoughts?

[tyckspoon]

Didn't we just have one of these? .. huh. Guess not. If I was better with the Search I'd just link the last time this happened and save everybody a twenty page argument.

[Nebo_]

RPGs are team games, and there's no reason that a game shouldn't make every effort to ensure that different character classes or builds are useful and valuable members of the team. There's a difference between powergaming and just wanting to contribute.
Thoughts?

I agree with this completely.

-Duh! Wizards can remake reality and Fighters can just swing a sword really, really hard. Of course Wizards should be stronger.

I hate this sort of outlook. It's a game, people. It's supposed to be fun for everyone.

[drengnikrafe]

Things aren't balanced. Maybe they should be, but if you actually want to ballance things, either you bring everything up to the Wizard's level, or you nerf every class down to some lower level. Not a lot of people fell like rewriting every rule in D&D.

The game isn't balanced, and we've come to accept that. If you want to write new rules for every character to achieve balance, go post in the homebrew forums and build a new game on the D20 system. If you just want to sit and make a stink about it, but not try to rewrite it to be fair, then you should stop speaking because you're being hypocritical.

Things are never perfectly balanced, not in life, not in anime, not in any game I've ever seen. Deal with it.

And those are my thoughts.

[Jayngfet]

we need uniformity because the fighter needs to be able to do as much as a wizard, in and out of combat, it's not fair that one can swing a sword while the other throws bolts of pure arcane might, and one can chop down trees for a log cabin while the wizard can make a magic fortress in six seconds.

[Samakain]

Agree to your synopsis whole hardiedly. here here

Not evyerbody has to go for maximized damage output, D&D is a team experiance and you need one of each peice if you think your going to go anywhere>

[evisiron]

Things are never perfectly balanced, not in life, not in anime, not in any game I've ever seen. Deal with it.

I feel compelled to mention the Star Wars scenario we ran where every PC and NPC was a Clone Warrior from the same batch with the same equipment and training for the exact same time, fighting in a ring shaped to be a perfect circle.

[Jayngfet]

I feel compelled to mention the Star Wars scenario we ran where every PC and NPC was a Clone Warrior from the same batch with the same equipment and training for the exact same time, fighting in a ring shaped to be a perfect circle.

except some of them had jetpacks, or rocketlaunchers, or both.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I hate this sort of outlook. It's a game, people. It's supposed to be fun for everyone.

I agree with Morbo on this one.

[Skjaldbakka]

-Duh! Wizards can remake reality and Fighters can just swing a sword really, really hard. Of course Wizards should be stronger.

There is an easy counter to this argument. Why should it be just as easy to reshape reality as it is to swing a sword?

[Crow]

D20 Modern was fairly balanced.

[Rutee]

Things are never perfectly balanced, not in life, not in anime, not in any game I've ever seen. Deal with it.

That's a tautological defense; "It's unbalanced because it's unbalanced. And because it's unbalanced, we should leave the enormous gap in ability alone".

[Crow]

There is an easy counter to this argument. Why should it be just as easy to reshape reality as it is to swing a sword?

Or take the same amount of time...?

[Rutee]

Why shouldn't sword swinging be able to remake reality?

[drengnikrafe]

Why shouldn't sword swinging be able to remake reality?

Ahh, but it does.
See that guy over there? 6 seconds later, he's short and arm and a life...
See that other guy over there? A well placed swing, and you just turned him from a bass (I think that's a low voice range) to a... whatever voice range is really high.
And the box? Now a pile of rubble!

Sword swinging does alter reality, just in less "immutable laws of the universe altering" way and more of a "form and function of things" way.

[Crow]

See that other guy over there? A well placed swing, and you just turned him from a bass (I think that's a low voice range) to a... whatever voice range is really high.

Are you thinking from a Baritone to a Soprano?

[Rutee]

Sword swinging does alter reality, just in less "immutable laws of the universe altering" way and more of a "form and function of things" way.

Why limit it?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...adraticWizards

[Mewtarthio]

Because, Rutee, the company is called Wizards of the Coast, not Fighters of the Coast.

[dman11235]

Balance is an attempt to make every aspect of the game usable, but not abusable. It failed. Big time. But as long as you're having fun, it shouldn't matter, right? Well, some people have fun by being powerful, some by not caring and just roleplaying (not comiting Stormwind Fallacy, just pointing out that some purposely sacrifice power). And how do you make sure every one contributes enough to have fun, while still allowing those who want to be powerful their glory? Balance. If things are fairly balanced, then there is a noticeable but not harmful gap in power between those who don't want to optimize to their fullest and those who do. If, for instance, you have a batman wizard running around in a party with a CW samurai, that samurai is going to feel fairly left out because he can't really do anything compared to the wizard. It's even worse when you compare a samurai to a cleric, or even a fighter (ironic how I went down in power there...)

Anyways, yes, it is a game, and the point is to have fun. But a lot of people have fun by rollplaying rather than roleplaying. And that is why balance exists (or doesn't, your call). If things are balanced, they can both have their fun, and no one gets hurt.

Disclaimer: I'm tired, so if I didn't make sense, tough.

[Rutee]

Because, Rutee, the company is called Wizards of the Coast, not Fighters of the Coast.

I like the answer "Because Nerds are Wizards" better, frankly

[drengnikrafe]

@Crow
Sure, if that makes sense.

@Rutee
You're right, it's now powerful enough the way I say it. Lemme try again.
In more of a "Altering the very fabric of reality, including life force, and the existance of everything, and even stuff that doesn't fall under the category of 'everything' in any way they, or any other person in or out of existance can think of"
Better?

[Rutee]

Not really, because it's a blatant misrepresentation. Fighters suck because they're only allowed to swing swords, Wizards get to rewrite basic game assumptions.

[drengnikrafe]

Not really, because it's a blatant misrepresentation. Fighters suck because they're only allowed to swing swords, Wizards get to rewrite basic game assumptions.

Are you kidding? they're allowed to do more?
I hear this one quite a lot... "I make a tumble check". See, they're allowed to roll! That counts for something...
Not to mention the fact that swords can be magical (I.E. magic weapons), so now they're using a wizards power with every attack. Reminds me of Steiner's Magic Sword ability, from FF IX, only... not quite the same.

[Skjaldbakka]

Well, here's your problem:

-Spellcasters use magic, and so can do impossible things.
-Non-spellcasters don't use magic, and thus can't do impossible things.
-Since impossible things are more powerful than possible things, spellcasters are more powerful than non-spellcasters.

How do we fix this problem? Well, we limit the spellcasters, so they are squishy, and pretty much useless without their spells, and then we give them a limited number of spells per day. Of course, it sucks to be useless and squishy, so we'll give them enough spells/day that they can use them in almosty every encounter (thus negating the balancing factor of spells/day).

OK, that didn't work.

[Reel On, Love]

Are you kidding? they're allowed to do more?
I hear this one quite a lot... "I make a tumble check". See, they're allowed to roll! That counts for something...
Not to mention the fact that swords can be magical (I.E. magic weapons), so now they're using a wizards power with every attack. Reminds me of Steiner's Magic Sword ability, from FF IX, only... not quite the same.

WOOO TUMBLING

THAT IS TOTALLY AS GOOD AS DAZING ALL YOUR ENEMIES FOR THE REST OF THE FIGHT WHILE DAMAGING THEM, AT LONG RANGE

WOOOOOOOOO

[drengnikrafe]

WOOO TUMBLING

THAT IS TOTALLY AS GOOD AS DAZING ALL YOUR ENEMIES FOR THE REST OF THE FIGHT WHILE DAMAGING THEM, AT LONG RANGE

WOOOOOOOOO

I take your point, and I stop trying to come up with lame excuses... (Even though most wizards can't tumble very well)

[Rutee]

-Non-spellcasters don't use magic, and thus can't do impossible things.

Wait, what?

[Reel On, Love]

Well, here's your problem:
-Non-spellcasters don't use magic, and thus can't do impossible things.

Oh, come the @#$! on, yes they can, in fiction. Cultures the world over have managed to accept this without cognitive dissonance, and I'm sure gamers could manage, too. "Just That Good" is a potent justification for everything from wuxia feats (balancing on tree branches, leaping for miles, shattering skulls with the wind from your blow), to the deeds of myth (throwing an island).

And setting that aside, D&D explicitly allows non-magical impossible things. We call them (Ex) abilities, like Evasion.

You can also give warriors (Su) abilities just fine.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Not evyerbody has to go for maximized damage output, D&D is a team experiance and you need one of each peice if you think your going to go anywhere>

Except in D&D, that's not true, thus the discussion.

Past level X, (depending on the Wizard and Fighter build) the Fighter becomes a handicap to the Wizard instead of an actual partner. And that's not good.

[Samakain]

I remember playing in a game with a lvl 25 Half Ogre Fighter

I dunno about anybody else

but FFS

He rewrote some very personal facts of existance to nearly everything we came across. Two of those facts being "hard ogre is hard" and "Big sword is Big", especially when he started dualing bastard swords, i swear he put out more damage per round than our wizard did just by being neigh unstoppable.

Your all free to your own opinon, but i find the idea the "Fighters suck because they can't do a maximized quickened empowered twin-spelled energy admixtured wank-a-troned meteor swarm" kinda offensive :P sure wizards have massive damage output, there also soft and chewy. Sure you can make a decent gish with 9th level spells, and at least 3 attacks but meh, your still a gish and not doing either of those things as well as you could solo.

but even without TOB, the humble fighter be can any form, shape size, whatever and still kick a fair bit of arse, even at higher level they really are master at every combact trick in the book, and i find it so much more rewarding to get in there swinging my sad little sword and get my hands dirty rather than sit 100ft back dealing 10d6.

And all in all, where talking about a party based game in balance

a lvl 20 wizard might be hurling the doom

but his punk arse better not forget who he hid behind when his whole 3 lvl 1 spells for the day where used up.