Raise a glass for the underpowered

[Khantalas]

It's a free action. You could sacrifice as many as you like.

Stacking, however, I can't comment on.

EDIT: V MWHAHAHAHA! Got ninja'd by me!

[Fax Celestis]

Why is that so?

It doesn't even say you can sacrifice more than one spell at a time. It only says you can sacrifice one spell of x level and gain +x to hit and xd4 damage.
Of course, a TWF-er might be able to sacrifice two at once, for fighting style sake. But I still don't understand where this sacrificing multiple spells and anything stacking logic coming from.

Further, it says that activating it is a free action.

[alchahest]

I've loved the hexblade class since Complete Warrior first came out, even moreso since PHB2 came out. One of the most enjoyable characters I ever played was an Aasimar (the LA 1 version from Races of Destiny) Hexblade that waitressed during the day. She was good at two things; nonlethal combat, and psychological warfare. between her dark companion, her curse, Tasha's hideous laughter, tanglefoot bags, bolas, and Love Potions (combined with a high bluff mod) made her ridiculously fun in combat. She also had this weird affliction. she was not morally opposed to doing evil acts, but as an aasimar, she had this weird physical reaction to it, and would have to run off scene to vomit if she killed someone in anything but honourable combat. which is why she was a nonlethal combat specialist.

[Rigeld2]

Why is that so?

It doesn't even say you can sacrifice more than one spell at a time. It only says you can sacrifice one spell of x level and gain +x to hit and xd4 damage.
Of course, a TWF-er might be able to sacrifice two at once, for fighting style sake. But I still don't understand where this sacrificing multiple spells and anything stacking logic coming from.

As has been said, its a Free action. So you activate the feat 5 times, thats 5 Free actions. Assuming theyre all level 4 spells, you get +4 to hit, and +20d4 damage.

[Ramza00]

Why Arcane Strike works with the Duskblade and you get +5 to hit and 20d4 extra damage per weapon with each attack that weapon does.

First Arcane Strike is a free action thus you can activate infinite times per round. Only thing stoping you is the number of spells slots you can sacrifice and the damage caps at your bab.

Second Arcane Strike has two important lines about the attack bonus and the damage dice.

you gain a bonus on all your attack tolls for 1 round equal to the level of the spell sacrificed

Note this is a bonus it is an untyped bonus thus it stacks with anything except itself. Thus a duskblade attack bonus maxes out at +5 for he only has 5th lvl spells.

If he sacks 1 5th lvl spell, 5 2nd lvl spells and 5 1st lvl spells only the highest bonus of that type is applied which would be the 5th lvl spell and thus +5 Attack Bonus.

as well as extra damage equal to 1d4 points x the level of the spell sacrificed

This is extra damage, it is not a bonus, extra damage stacks with itself, for the same reason sneak attack from multiple sources (assassin, rogue, hunter’s eye spell, etc all would stack). Sneak Attack is extra damage, extra damage stacks with itself even if its of the same type as previous extra damage.

Also note a twf fighting duskblade would only get the +5 attack bonus and 20d4 extra damage for one weapon for sacking 20 lvls of spells, he would need to sack 40 lvls of spells to get +5 attack bonus and and 20d4 extra damage.

This is the rules of how Arcane Strike works, it is plain as day, if you don’t like it then houserule it. Don’t say it doesn’t work when it does work according to the SRD and Complete Warrior.

[Zincorium]

Huh. Alright. I have never seen any rule that says all damage dice automatically stack, anywhere, so I was basing my advice on what seemed to be the wording of the feat, you use one spell, you get one bonus to attack and damage. The attack I knew didn't stack, the damage I was simply unaware of any rules regarding.

On a side note, 20 spell levels for 20d4, average 50 damage, for attacks on a single round seems to be a bit of a waste considering what could be done with those same spells.

[Deepblue706]

I just feel a build like that is gimping yourself needlessly, because there's no compelling mechanical reason why your backstory requires that smorgasbord of classes. It seems to me a poor idea to try to represent every aspect of your character's backstory in mechanics, when a comparative handful of mechanical concessions can do the same job (say, going straight Ranger but putting a few ranks into Sleight of Hand to reflect your streetwise beginning). That sort of character creation feels like walking the character through her life, thinking "I'll take this class now! Next, this class!" because the classes each represent some archetype of what you're doing right that minute; the end result doesn't have the consistent feel of a single character with a single set of strengths whose history has perhaps led to some unusual applications of those strengths.

Is there really any reason why a kid living on the streets would know how to sneak attack and find traps when he's older? Why a ranger who joins a mercenary company would learn to use heavy armor that makes him worse at what he's good at? I just don't see that it's necessary to make suboptimal mechanical choices to capture a character concept which could easily be achieved through roleplaying.

Oh, I agree with you on many points. However, I do sympathize for those who do feel this many class changes is necessary.

You appear to assume there's no compelling reason for someone to do this: I'd say that's entirely situational. Looking at it from this kind of perspective, I see why you might say that, but I think it's possible for someone to have good reason to do this...it's just unlikely.

You're right about the "kid on the streets" and the rogue's class abilities - none of that should be inherent just because he shares a few things in-common with what the class encompasses. I blame the design of the game, because if you're taking up a class, you need to make used of what abilities it gets if you really want to be up to par - ignoring them because your character doesn't really "do things that way" doesn't work, because these classes were built with abilities to be used.

This is primarily why I prefer GURPS. Much more freedom.

While I can't truly defend this particular case of multiclassing to the fullest extent, I do believe that it's quite alright to make a class change that proves to be "sub-optimal", because in some cases, it makes a great deal of sense.
I'll explain to you one of my own characters as an example: X was an elite (mundane) soldier in a military for a while, and then eventually got noticed by his superiors and was trained in how to use arcane magic, which was to be used in conjunction with his fighting skills.

Now, he could be a straight Duskblade. However, I chose to make him a Fighter/Wizard, because I felt it more appropriate: he was a mundane soldier for quite a while, so it seemed he should at least start out as a plain Fighter.

Wizard was added on because there was a great deal of emphasis on his arcane training, and little on fighting skills (but remember, BAB still does improve, even if you're a Wizard and don't typically need silly things like that).

He is currently a Fighter 4 / Wizard 2.

I wouldn't call him underpowered, but he is certainly not the optimum gish. I do this because I feel this is how the character should be. Is this still needless, to you?

[Rigeld2]

Huh. Alright. I have never seen any rule that says all damage dice automatically stack, anywhere, so I was basing my advice on what seemed to be the wording of the feat, you use one spell, you get one bonus to attack and damage. The attack I knew didn't stack, the damage I was simply unaware of any rules regarding.

There arent any rules restricting or allowing, explicitly, the stacking of damage dice. But, since each use adds Xd4, you just keep adding d4s.

On a side note, 20 spell levels for 20d4, average 50 damage, for attacks on a single round seems to be a bit of a waste considering what could be done with those same spells.

Depends.. its 20d4 per attack. Hasted at high levels vs. a single bad guy, thats not a small amount, expecially if you Wraithstrike.

[serow]

Ah OK, never looked at it from that angle before.

[marjan]

Anyway why the bonus wouldn't be aplied to the off-hand weapon since the feat says that you apply bonus to every attack for one round? It doesn't say that it has to be with one weapon. Am I missing something?

[Dhavaer]

Anyway why the bonus wouldn't be aplied to the off-hand weapon since the feat says that you apply bonus to every attack for one round? It doesn't say that it has to be with one weapon. Am I missing something?

Arcane Strike applies to a melee weapon, unarmed strike or natural weapon. To use it with two weapons, you'd have to spend two spells.

[kamikasei]

You're right about the "kid on the streets" and the rogue's class abilities - none of that should be inherent just because he shares a few things in-common with what the class encompasses. I blame the design of the game, because if you're taking up a class, you need to make used of what abilities it gets if you really want to be up to par - ignoring them because your character doesn't really "do things that way" doesn't work, because these classes were built with abilities to be used.

It's not so much the "why can this kid trapfind just because he was a street urchin" that I have a problem with - it's more that the Rogue class has a bunch of abilities, of which one - Sleight of Hand as a class skill - would really be necessary to a backstory like that one. When the only real flavor benefit of a mechanical choice could easily be replicated by making a different, superior mechanical choice, I see it as a poor choice and a poorer motive. It's the idea that if you want to do something that's traditionally associated with Rogues, then you have to take levels in the Rogue class, that I take issue with, because I see it as denying the flexibility that does exist in the class system.

While I can't truly defend this particular case of multiclassing to the fullest extent, I do believe that it's quite alright to make a class change that proves to be "sub-optimal", because in some cases, it makes a great deal of sense.

If it's particularly important to the character concept, then yeah, it makes sense to make a choice that may be sub-optimal. If your character absolutely has to be an unusually smart tribesperson from the east who was adopted after his family died in a famine, and became a master of magic in civilized lands but retained his volatile and highly physical temper, then sure, it'd be hard to get mechanics to reflect that except with a Barbarian/Wizard build. I would wonder, though, whether a straight Wizard who was just roleplayed as having a temper would work better - not every character trait has to have a mechanical representation. What irks me about the Rogue/Ranger/Fighter combo is that it's so close to just being a straight Ranger already. It doesn't really help the character, either mechanically or flavor-wise. A Ranger can already, easily, be sneaky and skillful, and is already supposed to be a competent warrior, who would gain little benefit from Fighter levels (and if you've joined a mercenary band on the strength of your Rangerly prowess, why would they want you to stop developing the skills that got you on their team in the first place?).

I'll explain to you one of my own characters as an example: X was an elite (mundane) soldier in a military for a while, and then eventually got noticed by his superiors and was trained in how to use arcane magic, which was to be used in conjunction with his fighting skills.

Now, he could be a straight Duskblade. However, I chose to make him a Fighter/Wizard, because I felt it more appropriate: he was a mundane soldier for quite a while, so it seemed he should at least start out as a plain Fighter.

Wizard was added on because there was a great deal of emphasis on his arcane training, and little on fighting skills (but remember, BAB still does improve, even if you're a Wizard and don't typically need silly things like that).

He is currently a Fighter 4 / Wizard 2.

I wouldn't call him underpowered, but he is certainly not the optimum gish. I do this because I feel this is how the character should be. Is this still needless, to you?

That's an interesting question. I can't say that the character as described could be well represented by anything other than a Fighter/Wizard. However, backstory is a flexible thing, and should be informed at least partly by the character you actually want to be in play. I guess I think of it this way: you want your character to be a particular way in the present. You devise a backstory that got him to that point, and make mechanical choices to represent him. I see the mechanics and the backstory as linked: your backstory should show through a little in how your character is put together, but at the same time, your backstory should be flexible enough to accommodate effective mechanics. In your example, your character probably would be more effective as a straight Duskblade, and the backstory could be altered to reflect this by saying that you came to the military trained for battle (no class levels yet), and your intelligence got you noticed and singled out for special training to combine arcane might with your combat ability. Hence, Duskblade from level one. You see what I mean? I guess a lot of my point is that your class levels and so forth don't have to be a written record of the story of your life from day one. If your character's story is just supposed to be "started out as a warrior, but the military taught him to cast, too", then a Duskblade with the backstory above represents that fine. If it's highly important to you that the character have been a highly-trained fighter who was in the military for years before being reassigned to full-time arcane studies, though, a Fighter/Wizard is the way to go. In that case, the mechanically less effective build is appropriate because that aspect of the character's history is not just backstory but is itself a part of how you want your character to be in the present. It's more important to you that he be "a former warrior who's taken up the arcane arts" than "a fighter who has some spellcasting ability".

[marjan]

Arcane Strike applies to a melee weapon, unarmed strike or natural weapon. To use it with two weapons, you'd have to spend two spells.

Thanks for clarifying that. I missed that part.

[Deepblue706]

If it's particularly important to the character concept, then yeah, it makes sense to make a choice that may be sub-optimal. If your character absolutely has to be an unusually smart tribesperson from the east who was adopted after his family died in a famine, and became a master of magic in civilized lands but retained his volatile and highly physical temper, then sure, it'd be hard to get mechanics to reflect that except with a Barbarian/Wizard build. I would wonder, though, whether a straight Wizard who was just roleplayed as having a temper would work better - not every character trait has to have a mechanical representation.

I agree. I only brought this up because it was unclear to me if you felt it was ever called for. I merely wanted to state that though adding a new class to your character each time they happen to do something apart from what their current classes would suggest is a bit foolish, once in a while I notice that someone will create a backstory and make claims of a character's deeds, but not actually have any class levels to support them because it's "less efficient" to do so. Just something I don't particularly like.

[kamikasei]

I agree. I only brought this up because it was unclear to me if you felt it was ever called for. I merely wanted to state that though adding a new class to your character each time they happen to do something apart from what their current classes would suggest is a bit foolish, once in a while I notice that someone will create a backstory and make claims of a character's deeds, but not actually have any class levels to support them because it's "less efficient" to do so. Just something I don't particularly like.

I guess it's at least partly a question of how much of a character's mechanics should reflect their life before taking class levels. If your first-level fighter was raised by a blacksmith, should he have skill points in Craft (smithing), or do those skill points only represent his fighter training and therefore are justly spent on fighter-ish things?

[Diggorian]

Does anyone have some good ranger or monk stories? I hear a lot of fans but no stories. Let's hear about this monk/ranger pwnage.

Our level 1 party was seeking a notrious Half orc pirate. Our spellthief thought it would be a good idea to sneak attack/intimidate an Orc bouncer at a seedy bar the pirate frequented (by rumor).

So, after she died from an axe to the head and the bouncer was brought down we turned to questioning the bartender. Our LN (evil leaning) Necromancer had his skeleton companion pinning the guy and terrorizing him. My CG ranger is already having friction with the wizard and trying to convince the bartender to talk while Necro boy decides to play "bad cop".

The guy claims to know nothing useful in between gasps from boney claws. I believe him, the whole investigation approach was dumb to me. My ranger tells the necromancer to release the guy. He tells the skeleton to starting squeezing the bartender (1 damage per round). I insist we leave cause the guy is starting to bleed. Wizard gives me a sly wink and starts "getting intense".

I quick draw a shortsword, flip it to hold the blade, bash it across the Necromancer's mouth -- one-hitter-quiter. The skeleton stops and moves to protect it's KOed master, the bartender runs off after I give him a gold for the trouble. The bard and I leave.

Later, our wizard confronts me. We talk: I dont apologize, he does. He went LG and multiclassed into a cleric, which we needed. Without a special feat tree, Geas spell, or PrC my ranger hit a guy hard enough to change his alignment.

[Deepblue706]

I guess it's at least partly a question of how much of a character's mechanics should reflect their life before taking class levels. If your first-level fighter was raised by a blacksmith, should he have skill points in Craft (smithing), or do those skill points only represent his fighter training and therefore are justly spent on fighter-ish things?

I'd say that depends on how much you want him to have learned. I don't set my skill ranks unless I somewhere implied that the chosen skills were part of some training or experience.

[Ramza00]

On a side note, 20 spell levels for 20d4, average 50 damage, for attacks on a single round seems to be a bit of a waste considering what could be done with those same spells.

Its 20d4 for every attack that round with one weapon. (Thus 4 attacks if they all hit) 80d4 or 200 average damage is alot if you want to drop a BBEG. Sure against most people it isn't as useful, but its good if you need to nova. Don't forget while the duskblade doesn't get as many high level spells as a wizard or gish he does get a total amount of spells similar to a wizard and thus has spell slots to spare for arcane strike even if it isn't a full out destroy the guy and leave no trace 20d4 arcane strike.

The thing about arcane strike its increases your versatility by allowing you to go nova if you want to.

[MusScribe]

*raises a glass* To the underpowered!


Assign as you go 4d6 keep 3 - ended up as a 5 Con Halfling Monk with one or two 16-17s... I forget exact stats, but about average Str/Cha, and the 16-17s were Dex/Int with a 14-15 Wis

A deathly frail halfling who was able to react to danger quickly and knew what he was talking about.
Every once in a while he got hit, but almost never got dangerously injured.

The one point I remember though, is coming upon a group of possessed Kobolds (glowing red-eyes, that sort of things). The rest of the party starts slaying (standard group type, I think a Paladin or two, maybe a Ranger, a Cleric and a Wizard other than me, I forget for sure though... - Yes, I was the skillmonkey there). I finally get to act and jump at the closest (and quite probably the only remaining) one. Of course, this was a really inexperienced DM/group (and when we were new to 3.x) so we took a moment to look up grapple rules. I ended up being able to pin it and got it tied up. It just muttered stuff and didn't give any useful information.

We either killed it or left for the rest of the adventure (and by we, I mean someone else in the group, finished it off - probably someone with a blade).


Although untried, I've thought about it... Soulknife... Reading through the Mind Blade ability, though, it sounded perfect for me.

As a move action, a soulknife can create a semisolid blade composed of psychic energy distilled from his own mind. The blade is identical in all ways (except visually) to a short sword of a size appropriate for its wielder.

As I've been reading it, that implies that you use the rules for a short sword of your size, but choose the appearance.
I'm thinking on the roleplaying aspect this could do... Especcially if it doesn't have a specific color or type like that.

A glove. It'll do damage like a blade (and be boosted by Enlarge Humanoid and similar spells), but show up on your hand.
A musical instrument (banjo, lyre, etc). Probably for less serious adventures, but also for in town, where a sword isn't helpful but having a weapon is. Imagine being able to walk into the bar, weapon drawn and ready, and no one paying attention to it. Or chasing someone down the street with it in hand. Multi-class with bard for more fun (especcially with a lenient DM who allows you to actually play it).
Claws. Disturbing at 8th level with the wounding enhancement...
A Shield. No one expects a shield to do 1d6 slashing damage. And with the defending enhancement, it becomes more appropriate.
Fire/Shadows/Other elemental energy type. If your opponent comes at you with a ball of fire in his hand, do you think basic slashing damage? Or 'time to get away from the fire'? (And multi-class with a spontaneous caster or a manifester for more fun with this especcially. This visual with an Energy Ray power of the appropriate time can convince them it's doing it. Then, switch damage types.)
Giant Shiny Sword. Always impressive. You can have it be 'too long' and still function for all mechanics-wise as a short sword.

At 5th level it gets interesting, a pair of gloves, a sword and whip (both working like short swords)...

Of course, I could be wrong on how I interpret Soul Knives, but if I can convince the DM to let it work that way, I may well use a soulknife (probably multiclassing, but not for sure).

[Zincorium]

Soulknife. Ouch. I'll drink to that as long as I can avoid getting any of it on me.

[Spikes01k]

Why Arcane Strike works with the Duskblade and you get +5 to hit and 20d4 extra damage per weapon with each attack that weapon does.

First Arcane Strike is a free action thus you can activate infinite times per round. Only thing stoping you is the number of spells slots you can sacrifice and the damage caps at your bab.

Second Arcane Strike has two important lines about the attack bonus and the damage dice.

Note this is a bonus it is an untyped bonus thus it stacks with anything except itself. Thus a duskblade attack bonus maxes out at +5 for he only has 5th lvl spells.

If he sacks 1 5th lvl spell, 5 2nd lvl spells and 5 1st lvl spells only the highest bonus of that type is applied which would be the 5th lvl spell and thus +5 Attack Bonus.

This is extra damage, it is not a bonus, extra damage stacks with itself, for the same reason sneak attack from multiple sources (assassin, rogue, hunter’s eye spell, etc all would stack). Sneak Attack is extra damage, extra damage stacks with itself even if its of the same type as previous extra damage.

Also note a twf fighting duskblade would only get the +5 attack bonus and 20d4 extra damage for one weapon for sacking 20 lvls of spells, he would need to sack 40 lvls of spells to get +5 attack bonus and and 20d4 extra damage.

This is the rules of how Arcane Strike works, it is plain as day, if you don’t like it then houserule it. Don’t say it doesn’t work when it does work according to the SRD and Complete Warrior.

FYI. With the recent production of the rules compendium the action to perform an arcane strike is a swift action now, which can only be used once in normal DnD rules.

[slexlollar89]

I'll raise a glass to the fighter, for it is the greatest class for those who can imagine what do to make with lots of feats...

My favorite fighter (and one of my favorite characters ever) was a venerable human fighter with a huge physical penalty to all his scores and outrageous mental stats. He used a glamered greathammer (that looked like a cane) and would constantly gripe about todays adventuring youth, the state of the weather, poor/easy dungeon conditions, the lack of a good walker, and generally the crapiness of what he metagame deduced (incorectly) to be 3.5 ed. He was one of the only characters I actally had an accent for (and the other players hated my grandpa vioce). He was so old, he called elves, dwarves, and the balor BBEG "sonny", and was notoriously ill-tempered withut his midday 4 hour nap.

He eventually got a fire breath weapon too, ad I planned on him getting a lore/bardic knowledge ability... but he literally die of old age before the campaign was over.

*raises glass* Heres to crotchety old farts... uh... fighters!

[OutlawJT]

Why Arcane Strike works with the Duskblade and you get +5 to hit and 20d4 extra damage per weapon with each attack that weapon does.

First Arcane Strike is a free action thus you can activate infinite times per round. Only thing stoping you is the number of spells slots you can sacrifice and the damage caps at your bab.

Second Arcane Strike has two important lines about the attack bonus and the damage dice.

Note this is a bonus it is an untyped bonus thus it stacks with anything except itself. Thus a duskblade attack bonus maxes out at +5 for he only has 5th lvl spells.

If he sacks 1 5th lvl spell, 5 2nd lvl spells and 5 1st lvl spells only the highest bonus of that type is applied which would be the 5th lvl spell and thus +5 Attack Bonus.

This is extra damage, it is not a bonus, extra damage stacks with itself, for the same reason sneak attack from multiple sources (assassin, rogue, hunter’s eye spell, etc all would stack). Sneak Attack is extra damage, extra damage stacks with itself even if its of the same type as previous extra damage.

Also note a twf fighting duskblade would only get the +5 attack bonus and 20d4 extra damage for one weapon for sacking 20 lvls of spells, he would need to sack 40 lvls of spells to get +5 attack bonus and and 20d4 extra damage.

This is the rules of how Arcane Strike works, it is plain as day, if you don’t like it then houserule it. Don’t say it doesn’t work when it does work according to the SRD and Complete Warrior.

One little problem with your interpretation. As you yourself quoted the feat specifically states per level of the spell sacrificed. Spell, singular! Not spells, as in you can sacrifice as many spells as you want in activation of the feat. This is one of the reasons WOTC moved from the free action to swift and immediate actions; to ban this kind of ridiculous and childish abuse of free actions. Additionally, I might be wrong on this but even though it is an untyped bonus I am pretty sure that unless a bonus specifically says otherwise it does not stack with itself. Is arcane strike still useful, especially for the Duskblade? Yes! It is not stupidly overpowering as you claim, though.

[Zincorium]

12-13-2007

That makes this thread just over three months old. Not as bad as most, I suppose, but it still bugs Algernon that you did it.

Edit: Also, OutlawJT, realize that Arcane Strike can be used multiple times per round as it's a free action, therefore while the attack bonus still only uses the highest level, the damage dice keep accruing each time you use it, as they are not a bonus of any sort, and no stacking rules apply.

[UserClone]

Zincorium, et al...realize that Arcane Strike has NOTHING to do with this thread. Why not make a new one or post it in Simple RAW questions?

Also, one of my favorite characters is my current one, a Gray Elf Wizard (wait for it)...who does little else than buff his party! Not optimized (beyond Race/Class), but he can get everybody else's juices flowing with a few Animalistic Powers, Burning Swords, Blurs, etc. Plus he's one of the best archers in the group with his 18 dex.

[Zincorium]

Zincorium, et al...realize that Arcane Strike has NOTHING to do with this thread. Why not make a new one or post it in Simple RAW questions?

Wait, why am I the one specifically and by name taken to task when I had nothing to do with necroing the thread just to post on that subject? You're being more than a little disingenuous here.

Also, one of my favorite characters is my current one, a Gray Elf Wizard (wait for it)...who does little else than buff his party! Not optimized (beyond Race/Class), but he can get everybody else's juices flowing with a few Animalistic Powers, Burning Swords, Blurs, etc. Plus he's one of the best archers in the group with his 18 dex.

Actually, buffing the party is one of the things the eponymous batman wizard specializes in. This doesn't get much play in the 'Vs' threads, but it's the actual party role batman fills.

The only reason I didn't post one of my own just now is:

A. I've already contributed an underpowered character I played, back in March 2007, post 45. Oddly, this was exactly one year ago to the day.

B. Seeing as the thread was already three months old, with no new posts, I figured maybe it should die.