Efreet?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Death is trivially easy to overcome in D&D. So much in fact that I actually don't recall any character in the Realm or Eberron (or any D&D type setting) dying plot simply stepping in and saying "Roll up a new character!".

Death is trivially easy to overcome when it's deliberate and you have someone to bring you back. If you don't achieve some form of immortality you stay dead "when your time is up." Then of course there're the myriad ways to get your soul trapped or destroyed.

My eyes are playing stupid right now so could you please list a page

I'll do you one better.

Most lawful evil souls have been assessed as the property of a particular lord of hell even before their arrival in baator. [...interesting but irrelevant fluff...] pg 9: Torture stations are typically supervised by erinyes, who file regular reports [..] listing the top soul harvesters. These reports are essential to the promotion prospects of devils at work on the Material Plane. [....]While slowly peeling away every last iota of the petitioner's individuality, the process releases magical energy, which flows to the local lord as specified in the pact primeval.

Power from souls harvested goes to the Lord

To qualify for advancement, a devil must win the approval of its direct supervisor.

So having your boss struck down is a problem

Inside the devil's body cavitiy is [...] the ovatorium. [...] When a devil is promoted, a sac (from the ovatorium) corresponding to the new form swells with infernal energy until it reaches full size and bursts out through the ruined flesh of the old form.

and the energy harvested goes back to the underling. So yeah, screwing with devils is -way- more trouble than any sensible mortal should ever undertake.

Alright lemme ask you a question: Say that you are Mephistopheles and someone has just permanently killed Asmodeus. Would you actively (and I mean put in some serious effort to the point where you probably start a few trillion eons of constant war) seek out the guy who offed him or would you move on and get to work on building your own organization?

Given how infernal politics works, I'd already have an organization. After I secured my position as the new ruler of hell, I would most certainly set to work to make an example of the mortal who was responsible. The whole cosmos needs to know that I'm better than the guy before me and that if you mess with a devil all of hell is your enemy. The last thing I need is some uppity eladrins or archons thinking I'm weak and trying to storm avernus to try and save a few wrongfully directed souls. (some souls do end up in hell by mistake.)

To be more fair it would be a Cleric V Wizard 123 discussion Of course considering the fact the Wizard is immune to everything under the sun, this is generally considered moot.

Same goes for cleric, this is pretty much an unwinnable fight, but not losing is a victory of sorts on this level of play.

A fight like that would pretty much be like the Lady of Pain Vs Ao.

You mean there'd be a good chance of it destroying the cosmos as we know it? (Note the conspicuous absence of blue in that statement )

Devil's have a level of self-importance that trumps Karsus easily. They are just as likely to fail (statistically more actually) then you are. Which explains why Heroes actually get away with the shenanigans that they pull periodically.

Individually they may be more likely to fail, though that particular reason doesn't make it quantitatively proveable, but you have to keep rolling the dice. Sooner or later your luck runs out and theirs holds. Then you're lucky if you're just dead.

Demon's aren't exactly famous for their intelligence. Perhaps not a Deux ex machina, but it does certainly reek of something hampering the Demons. Perhaps a conflicting on his Layers after his disappearance or simply fear of him kept them from looking for him.

Then we agree that it was an anomaly, and isn't a good example for this discussion.

Contact Other Plane, Legend Lore on the target to learn more about it, Scry for it. All until you have the knowledge that you seek which is a simple question: "Can it use Wish now?". Moot really especially considering that a MM Efreet cannot use Wish for itself...

You have to start somewhere. You can't legend lore a creature with -nothing- to go on, except "an efreeti that can't currently grant a wish." At the very least you're talking about either building or engaging an existing information network just to reach the starting point of this process. Contact other plane is dangerous in its own right, and not entirely reliable. Using it is pushing your luck just a little bit more. If you have to go through all that trouble and possibly spend all that gold, wouldn't it be immensely more sensible just to try and find a scroll of wish?

FALSENESS! HE HAS ALREADY USED HIS WISH FOR VECNA KNOWS WHAT!

If you can find a creature that meets that criterion; an arduous task in its own right.

No offense, but this actually disturbed me a little bit after reading it...
Regardless! The creature does not know what spell I am going to cast immediately after agreeing to the spell. I could of course just set up some shenanigans to make him botch the save on anything short of a nat 20 (negative levels are a hell of a drug).

Doesn't matter. Simply knowing that such a spell might make me your permanent slave forever and always will prevent the creature from agreeing until and unless you offer it -something- in return. Like an iron-clad guarantee that it's not one of those spells, for example.

Statistically this is quite true. Just make sure you have enough Wishes to not screw up on the first time. Hell, on your first successful wish, wish for a magical item of unlimited wishes

You and I both know that's not a kosher wish, regardless of RAW. Such a device would be a god in item form. Incidentally, a god of magic would strip you of the thing the moment it came into existence. Even the uncarring book, Boccob, wouldn't stand for such an item. (call it DM fiat if you will, but you know I'm right on this one.)

Actually it is incredibly easy to increase the characters caster level by 18 either through Spellcraft use (MoF) or Circle Magic or even magical items (Ioun Stones). Increase your caster level is child's play at 20th level. Efreeti are simply the easiest to do since you don't have to worry about retribution or anything.

Efreet are members of a lawful-evil society based around mercantilism. They may not have their act together as well as the devils, but retribution will be an issue.

That is what disturbed me. How little value you placed on the creatures life and if you were in that situation, your own life...

I do place life at a somewhat lower value than some societies suggest I should, I admit. On the personal level, I very much put my freedom ahead of my life. I life in bondage is no life at all. I admit this may color my opinion on this specific point, just a little, but I really can't see a thinking creature willingly giving up any chance of freedom of choice until your wizard is dead or otherwise gone. Much less taking a chance that you're going to completely rewrite its entire mind.

Regardless this can be done without asking "nicely" through the use of negative levels, penalties, etc.

Natural 20's are always a thing. As long as the dice are involved this is a losing game. The house always wins in the end, unless you walk away. Of course, you can't walk away once you're on this path. You're on the radar from your first try and even if it's succesful and everything goes smoothly, and you return the creature, mind freshly wiped, there's a chance your actions will come to light and vengeance heaped upon you.

Quite right. I'd just rather not see either a person like you get banned. Excellent participant on this forum

Thank you for the compliment good sir. I don't believe I'm in much danger of that though. I'm pretty good about not crossing the line, even if I do get adventurously close sometimes.

In this particular instance, our discussion seems more a logical progression of the discussion than a derail, IMO. I would, of course, stop immediately and take this to another thread if a mod or the OP suggested it. I'm not trying to ruin anyone's fun here.

Quite right. NOW TO MOVE ON TO ENSLAVE THE EFREETI!

Definitely a safer choice than anything that can wish for itself, I'm still more than a little concerned about how many ways this can go wrong though.

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What the crap is that?