Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

[Mr._Blinky]

You're gonna want to cut out reference to Eldar tech. Anything like their Holofields is based on psyker-technology; unless your techs are all moderately powerful psykers, they're just not going to be able to make any Eldar-based technology work.

Psykers are a large part of the Bone Knights forces, or at least were. The justification of the Inquisition calling the Bone Knights corrupted was when the vast majority of their Librarians were possessed by Daemons during the fight at the Chaos temple. It was a problem that the BKs could have handled, but it was all of the justification that the Inquisition needed.

There actually is a reason that they had so many psychics. While their dedication to forward progress is one of the BK's greatest strengths, it is also a rather large flaw. They began to accept less and less stable psykers into their ranks, seeing the potential risks as outweighed by the gains of having nearly double the standard number of Librarians. The result was a greater quantity of psykers as well as ones that were in many cases stronger, but it ended up biting them in the ass in the end. Most of their remaining psykers are now kept on a very tight leash.

I'm thinking at this point that I really just need to post the whole background, rather than doing this explain-as-I-go thing. I'll try and put something up tomorrow.

You might be right though, I might just remove the reference to Eldar tech altogether. It might be a little far-fetched for even the BK techs to be able to figure out Eldar holo-fields.

[SolkaTruesilver]

And... Legally Blond? ........

Pink for the Blond God!!
Pink for the Blond God!!

I was merely kidding, don't worry. Yes, Legally Blond.

But if that can be reassuring, I have to agree with you. A beautiful tank is nicer to play with/put work on as an ugly tank. I have recently finished painting my first Chimaera with different color, and I have to admit I am slightly skeptic about the color choice for the moment. That created a chain event where I am even more reluctant to go paint more of my soldiers... remember my color scheme for my Gue'Vesa Guard?

(Btw, my own Imperial Guard is consdered Heretic too. They believe in the Emperor-God, but think the High Lords of Terra are a corrupted bunch. That is why they decided to support... the Greater Good.)

[Altima]

-snip-

Just keep in mind that the Emperor himself was not very tolerant. The Imperium's Xenophobia came from somewhere, and that was the Emperor. In the Horus Heresy novels, it's strongly hinted at and outright stated several times that entire races of xenos were wiped out because they were alien, and entire systems of humanity were cleansed because they would not kneel to the Emperor and/or they were too 'contaminated' by aliens.

In his defense, though, pretty much every non-human faction in the 40k universe (and remember, the Xenos on the TT game make up only a small number of that in the universe--less so than at the start of the Great Crusade) tend to kill, maim, or enslave humanity. The Eldar don't give two craps about humans--heck, they started the War of Armaggeddon that's claimed billions of human lives to save a few dozen Eldar lives. As for the Tau, the only thing that makes them better than the Imperium when it comes to cleansing is that they give you an option to surrender before they blast you to pieces. The Imperium does not.

[grinner666]

They're pro-Emperor, anti-Imperium. One of their beliefs is that the man who brought massive progress to the human race would probably be a little miffed at the Imperium's current stagnation. This is one of the reasons they were declared heretics.

So the Emperor, who knows all and sees all, and allowed or perhaps ordered the Inquisition to declare Exterminatus on their Chapter, still holds the kind of unswerving faith and loyalty necessary for them to retain the "And They Shall Know No Fear" rule? Sorry, that really doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Being the superior specimens of humanity that they are, Space Marines must be assumed to have superior brains as well as brawn, after all.

And the point of seeing how they fare against normal Space Marines was playtesting, not role-playing ... if you want to see whether this new Chapter is inherently superior, inferior or on par with other armies, the place to start is probably Annihilation missions against the sort of forces from which they came.

[Winterwind]

Reminds me a lot of the Soul Drinkers, fluff-wise. The assumption the Inquisition and Administratorum have betrayed the Emperor can explain a lot.

[grinner666]

Reminds me a lot of the Soul Drinkers, fluff-wise. The assumption the Inquisition and Administratorum have betrayed the Emperor can explain a lot.

Right. I can just see how THAT conversation would go ...

Bone Knight Chapter Master: I cannot believe the Emperor declared Exterminatus on us, his most loyal Chapter!

Bone Knight Librarian: Not necessarily. The Inquisition declares Exterminatus, Brother.

Bone Knight Chapter Master: Then you're saying he might not have known this was being done to us?

Bone Knight Chaplain: Do not blaspheme! The Emperor knows all and sees all!!

Bone Knight Chapter Master: (puzzled) Then you're saying we are heretics?

Bone Knight Chaplain: No! No, uh ... of course not! We're being tested by the Emperor! That's all!

Bone Knight Apothecary: Screw that!! Do you know what "Exterminatus" means? It means kill them all, burn down their chapter houses and their labs, and stamp out their gene seed!

Bone Knight Librarian: Man, they wiped out 90% of my brother Librarians ...

Bone Knight Chaplain: Uuuuuuuhhhhh ... the ways of the Emperor are not for such as you and I to understand?

Bone Knight Chapter Master: Oh, bite me. I'm outta here. Anybody else comin' along? Maybe the Tau need some mercs ...

Bone Knight Librarian: Be right wit'cha, boss.

Bone Knight Techmarine: (nearly orgasmic) Mmmmmmmmmmm ... Eldar tech ...

Bone Knight Chaplain: I wonder if the White Scars are hiring ... oh, wait, I'm a Heretic. I wonder if Cypher's hiring.

[Winterwind]

Well, I figure it would be more like, if other Space Marine Chapters could betray the Emperor and become heretics, why not the whole Inquisition?

[Mr._Blinky]

Reminds me a lot of the Soul Drinkers, fluff-wise. The assumption the Inquisition and Administratorum have betrayed the Emperor can explain a lot.

Which is basically what I was going for. I actually came up with the idea of them being Renegades before I read about the Soul Drinkers, but the SD background gave me a lot of ideas for how to go about their renegade status.

Also, I'm still on the fence about whether or not to even include Chaplains at all. On the one hand I actually still have a biker-chaplain that I got for Christmas some years back and have never used, but OTOH I'm not really sure that there's any way to fit them into the fluff.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Also, I'm still on the fence about whether or not to even include Chaplains at all. On the one hand I actually still have a biker-chaplain that I got for Christmas some years back and have never used, but OTOH I'm not really sure that there's any way to fit them into the fluff.

Why don't you go "False Emperor" route?

At some point during the Heresy, the Real Emperor was replaced with a False Emperor by the High Lords of Terra using Dark Age Technology for cloning. The clone turned out to be vastly inferior to the Real Emperor, so it was terribly wounded during the clash with Horus. Suddenly finding themselves with a clever out, they locked the False Emperor in the Golden Throne and took over the Imperium, spreading false doctrines and so forth.

The Real Emperor is either hiding (to test the loyalty of his Marines) or was sent to the Far Reaches; any doctrine that your Marines disagree with was introduced after the kidnapping. Remember: when you're re-writing religious doctrine, you can ignore whatever is inconvenient

[Ghal Marak]

Which is basically what I was going for. I actually came up with the idea of them being Renegades before I read about the Soul Drinkers, but the SD background gave me a lot of ideas for how to go about their renegade status.

Also, I'm still on the fence about whether or not to even include Chaplains at all. On the one hand I actually still have a biker-chaplain that I got for Christmas some years back and have never used, but OTOH I'm not really sure that there's any way to fit them into the fluff.

The SD still have a Chaplain. But, they aren't a chapter you can play on the table either (at least as far as I know). Perhaps a slightly altered Chaplain? Maybe give them a new ability, or replace an existing one. Also, here is another idea. The Marines (not elites, the average marine) will no longer get new armaments from the vast Manufactorums of the imperium, so to reflect that perhaps upgrade their firearms from bolters to plasma rifles? And drop their armor to a 4+ save, to show the rarity of new parts to repair their power armor?

I don't profess either idea to be solid, but it's all I've got right now. Oh, and if you don't mind I'd be happy to playtest some of your work.

[Bryn]

Z-axis, you mentioned you have a plot or something of a sort. You running a campaign?

Sadly not, few people near me wants to play 40k anymore

Rather, it is an ongoing story, part background and partly just general fiction. See here, good sir! [/plug] Heavily inspired by Xenology and Imperial Armour IV

In other news... all these pro-Emperor, anti-Imperial armies seem to have a remarkable knowledge of (10000 year old) pre-Heresy events, particularly for the super propaganda-happy Imperium

[Oracle_Hunter]

In other news... all these pro-Emperor, anti-Imperial armies seem to have a remarkable knowledge of (10000 year old) pre-Heresy events, particularly for the super propaganda-happy Imperium

Who ever said that their views were accurate? Space Marines have their own propagandists too, y'know

Or it could just be old Eldrad Ulthran messing around with the stupid hummies again. Yeah, that's probably it

[MorhgorRB]

The Marines (not elites, the average marine) will no longer get new armaments from the vast Manufactorums of the imperium, so to reflect that perhaps upgrade their firearms from bolters to plasma rifles?

...wait, so because they aren't being reequipped every ten minutes, you should give them more of the rarer and more powerful gun?

[Ghal Marak]

...wait, so because they aren't being reequipped every ten minutes, you should give them more of the rarer and more powerful gun?

Well, marines go through bolter rounds like crazy, and with no official supply of them I would think that replacing those rounds would be a bit more difficult. And I was running off of the idea that the Bone Knights have a good 'in' with the Tau to have access to their guns. I guess they could be raiding supply ships to restock on bolter ammo, as well as other nessisary things. Realy, it was just a thought. The better guns were balanced by worse armor.

EDIT: And I didn't think plasma rifles were any rare, at least not in Tau territory. Your not confusing Plasma Rifles with Plasma Guns are you?

[MorhgorRB]

EDIT: And I didn't think plasma rifles were any rare, at least not in Tau territory. Your not confusing Plasma Rifles with Plasma Guns are you?

Yes, yes I was.

Ah, well. Everyone knows that all of the Tau's technology has a deadly weakness to...

Spoiler

Show

Fridge magnets. Yes, the kind you played with as a kid.

[Ghal Marak]

Yes, yes I was.

Ah, well. Everyone knows that all of the Tau's technology has a deadly weakness to...

Spoiler

Show

Fridge magnets. Yes, the kind you played with as a kid.

Eh, it happens. No harm no foul.

[Altima]

Well, marines go through bolter rounds like crazy, and with no official supply of them I would think that replacing those rounds would be a bit more difficult. And I was running off of the idea that the Bone Knights have a good 'in' with the Tau to have access to their guns. I guess they could be raiding supply ships to restock on bolter ammo, as well as other nessisary things. Realy, it was just a thought. The better guns were balanced by worse armor.

EDIT: And I didn't think plasma rifles were any rare, at least not in Tau territory. Your not confusing Plasma Rifles with Plasma Guns are you?

Space Marines do not go through bolter rounds like crazy. Fluffwise, a bolt goes right where a Marine wants it to go in most occaisionas.

Imperial plasma tech, while more powerful, is also...finicky. It has a bad habit of exploding, which will mean one less of the rare and powerful guns when they actually need it.

And I doubt the Tau would be willing to play supplier to a rebel faction of Space Marines who are not part of the Greater Good or Tau Empire or allied with it (see: slaves) nor who are likely to, eventually, turn right back around and start shooting at the Tau. This isn't even assuming that the Space Marines in question haven't descended so far into heresy that they'll eschew their blessed bolters for blesphemous and inferior xenos tech.

And trading with the Tau would put said faction is one of the most dangerous corridors in the galaxy. Orcs, the Damocles Gulf, and Ultramar surround the Tau Empire, and the sort of things preying that section of the galaxy would eat a space marine strike cruiser for breakfast.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Re: Armaments

Yeah, the Tau aren't going to be arms dealers unless the Marines pledge to the Greater Good. I'd say Bolter Shells are probably easier to get your hands on (by raiding Imperial arms depots and such) than in getting enough parts to maintain (and replace) plasma weaponry of any stripe.

If you'd like to fluff it up, make the squads armed by more "common" weapons, or weapons that don't need complicated reloads. More flamers and lascannons, fewer plasma weapons and heavy bolters. More chainswords and fewer missile launchers.

[Oslecamo]

Being the superior specimens of humanity that they are, Space Marines must be assumed to have superior brains as well as brawn, after all.

Says who? Space marines are bred to be superior combat machines, not superior specimens of humanity. But in brain matters, they actually degenerate:

Spoiler

Show

The uniforms of the Imperial Guard are camouflaged in order to protect their wearers by hiding them from sight.

The principle is that what the enemy cannot see he cannot kill. This is not the way of the Adeptus Astartes. A Space Marine’s armour is bright with heraldry that proclaims his devotion to his Chapter and the beloved Emperor of Mankind. Our principle is that what the enemy can see, he will soon learn to fear…
+++ Chaplain Aston, 10th Company, Fire Hawks Chapter +++

Damnation starts with little steps, by arrogantly thinking that you are wiser than our great forbears, by tinkering with truth, by compromising, by departing from the straight and narrow path of the Emperor’s light.

+++ Marneus Calgar +++

If my Marines are ordered to serve alongside these tainted half-animals, they shall do so. But upon their return they shall be quarantined and purified by every means in our Apothecarion.

+++ Commander Carab Culln, Red Scorpions Chapter on Ogryns +++

Camouflage is the colour of fear... I have no need to hide from my foes... I have no fear of death. My colours I wear openly, they proclaim louder than any words, "I am proud to live - I am proud to die".

+++ Commander Carab Culln, Red Scorpions +++

As you can see, Space Marines are specially trained to be rambling fanatics who charge into battle foaming from their mouths, despite having perfectly good ranged weaponry.

Just look at scouts. They still hold some healthy brain matter, so they can still use stealth and sniper rifles, but as soon as they become full fledged space marines, whatever grey cells they still have working are only enough to charging right into the enemy with sharp sticks and bright armors.

Remember the Horus heresy? The ultramarines went going to the middle of nowhere and the Space wolves were too busy beating up one of the remaining loyalist chapters, wich goes to show how blind and raging SM actually are. It's a miracle that the Black templars didn't destroy whatever was left of the Emperium when the ultramarines proposed to divide the chapters.

[MorhgorRB]

Says who? Space marines are bred to be superior combat machines, not superior specimens of humanity. But in brain matters, they actually degenerate:

Spoiler

Show

The uniforms of the Imperial Guard are camouflaged in order to protect their wearers by hiding them from sight.

The principle is that what the enemy cannot see he cannot kill. This is not the way of the Adeptus Astartes. A Space Marine’s armour is bright with heraldry that proclaims his devotion to his Chapter and the beloved Emperor of Mankind. Our principle is that what the enemy can see, he will soon learn to fear…
+++ Chaplain Aston, 10th Company, Fire Hawks Chapter +++

Damnation starts with little steps, by arrogantly thinking that you are wiser than our great forbears, by tinkering with truth, by compromising, by departing from the straight and narrow path of the Emperor’s light.

+++ Marneus Calgar +++

If my Marines are ordered to serve alongside these tainted half-animals, they shall do so. But upon their return they shall be quarantined and purified by every means in our Apothecarion.

+++ Commander Carab Culln, Red Scorpions Chapter on Ogryns +++

Camouflage is the colour of fear... I have no need to hide from my foes... I have no fear of death. My colours I wear openly, they proclaim louder than any words, "I am proud to live - I am proud to die".

+++ Commander Carab Culln, Red Scorpions +++

As you can see, Space Marines are specially trained to be rambling fanatics who charge into battle foaming from their mouths, despite having perfectly good ranged weaponry.

Just look at scouts. They still hold some healthy brain matter, so they can still use stealth and sniper rifles, but as soon as they become full fledged space marines, whatever grey cells they still have working are only enough to charging right into the enemy with sharp sticks and bright armors.

Remember the Horus heresy? The ultramarines went going to the middle of nowhere and the Space wolves were too busy beating up one of the remaining loyalist chapters, wich goes to show how blind and raging SM actually are. It's a miracle that the Black templars didn't destroy whatever was left of the Emperium when the ultramarines proposed to divide the chapters.

Alright, let me address this as civilly as possible.

Yes, SMs love to rip people apart with thier bare hands, and wear bright colours.

Why? Yeah, thier a bunch of psycopathic teenagers.

Really why? Space Marines have great minds, just not minimalist ones. Why try to sneak, when your the biggest, baddest thing out there, and are the Emporer's will incarnate? When normal men run in fear, or run gaggle around you in hopes that the might will wear off on them. They do tatics, they plan battles, sieges, planetary tithes and how to run thier segmentums. The thing is, a Space Marine is indoctrinated when they're a teen, just when they feel bullet proof, and are made to stay feeling that way, and are trained, designed, and almost rebuilt to kill anything else in hand to hand combat.

(Alright, so they hadn't taken the 'nids coming into the Galaxy, or the Dark Eldar being so slippery)

The Ultramarines for the Horus Heresy? Yeah. They ended up in the middle of nowhere, trying to catch the Word Bearers, and doing a fairly bad job of it. The Space Wolves... Well, they did end up killing a 'loyalist' legion. The Thousand Sons. Because, heresy is heresy, and what the Emporer says, goes. The Imperial Guard would've been doing it if he had told them too, but he prefered to trust a bunch of SMs to kill other SMs.

[SolkaTruesilver]

-Blablabla about Space Marines not being that intelligent-

Well, the way I see it, the Space Marines themselves are... hum... no longer Humans. They are simply geneticly engineered soldiers.

They have an incredible mind for tactic, courage, strategy, etc... But I wouldn't qualify them as "innovative", or anything of the sort. They are absolutely great at what they have to do, they have an awesome willpower, but they aren't "intelligent" in the way I would see some other peoples' intelligence.

In some way, they are Jem'Hadar. Jem'Hadar are incredibly cunning when it comes to combat tactics (the elder ones, specially). They can learn quickly new combat manoeuvers, don't fear to die, obey to the death. They are the last thing you want to face in a war, but are they "intelligent"?

Not when it comes to general intelligence.

Trust a Space Marine to fight a War. Kill him when if you have peace.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Alright, let me address this as civilly as possible.

Not to look for trouble, but there is absolutely nothing in his post that justify any kind unpoliteness. He do make a point: Space Marines are really dumb as a specie when they have to choose who to fight. They know where and how to fight, but that's about it.

I wouldn't want them at the head of a country/planet/Empire. The Primarchs were in huge proportion blind by arrogance. In Dark Crusade, the Blood Angels wiped an Imperial population because of some "relics" were present. All of this is symptomatic to a short-sightness when it comes to political decisions.

[MorhgorRB]

By civil, I meant not dicussing it the way I do at the local gaming club. Intersperced with insults and sarcasm. >.>!

Blood Ravens... Not Angels... Anyway. Let's get this thread back on topic, less fluff, more tatics. ...And codex invention?

[SolkaTruesilver]

By civil, I meant not dicussing it the way I do at the local gaming club. Intersperced with insults and sarcasm. >.>!

Blood Ravens... Not Angels... Anyway. Let's get this thread back on topic, less fluff, more tatics. ...And codex invention?

No harm done. It's just that I fear the Space Marine fanboys who just cry when it is mentionned that maybe their favorite aren't da b3st possible

Codex.. please.. don't mention Codex.. I'm still waiting for the IG 5th Edition... please...

[Eldan]

Codex invention? I dunno. I'd like some decent Saim Hann Wild Riders. Perhaps giving them a weapon skill of four and good melee weapons?

[Illiterate Scribe]

I wouldn't want them at the head of a country/planet/Empire. The Primarchs were in huge proportion blind by arrogance. In Dark Crusade, the Blood Angels wiped an Imperial population because of some "relics" were present. All of this is symptomatic to a short-sightness when it comes to political decisions.

Yeah, but that game also has them sacrificing the souls of necrons to gain a measure of the fury of a Khornate daemon, so ...

[Winterwind]

Yeah, but that game also has them sacrificing the souls of necrons to gain a measure of the fury of a Khornate daemon, so ...

Ummm... what?

The Slaaneshi amongst my troops would like to inquire what kind of drugs the person who came up with that was abusing, and where one can obtain these.

These games are not part of the canon, are they?

[Bryn]

Ummm... what?

The Slaaneshi amongst my troops would like to inquire what kind of drugs the person who came up with that was abusing, and where one can obtain these.

These games are not part of the canon, are they?

On the Grand Scale of Canonicity*, I believe they're pretty far down. Even so, a few elements are rather popular - specifically, when the Tau sterilised the Imperial population of the planet or something. I've never played the Tau campaign.

Generally, if some element in the games doesn't conflict with official GW books, it can be assumed to be 'true'

*for in 40k, what is canon and what isn't is a rather vague matter...

[Oslecamo]

MorhgorRB: Leting aside the part of how wasteful SM are from a resource point view, my main point was that SM are created to be tools of wars, not the next step of human evolution, like the other poster claimed.

As SolkaTruesilver said, I wouldn't mind a bit having SM as my frontline troops, but I certainly wouldn't want to have my family living near them, nor the SM taking control of anything that isn't a military operation in time of war.

And heck, if the IG had been sent to fight the Thousands suns, the probability of that primarch to convince the IG comander that he actually wasn't an heretic would be considerable superior to convincing battle thirsty Leman Russ.

After all, I've heard of guardsmen allying with the Tau. I've never heard of SM allying with the Tau however.

Z-Axis:Unfortenely you're right. Every product based on the tabletop game, from novels to DoW takes their own "liberties".

[onasuma]

So, Im looking to expand my nurgle force into a larger army, this time by adding a khorne section. So I was just wondering, having never really played 40k with squads I particularly wanted to get into melee (well, my nids, but monstrous creatures are different), what tactics do people have for using them.

Oh and how many bezerkers in a box?