"S'lesss than what you took from me"

[Alexei P]

I'm starting a thread to discuss what Wanda might have meant by those curious words. I saw many people assume she's talking about Jillian, but some other possibilities occur as well.

Let's discuss it to death, shall we?

Theory 1: She's mad at losing Jillian.

Clues: We've seen Wanda showing strong attachment to Jillian, and their breaking-up encounter seems to have left Wanda enraged.

Counter-arguments: The end of a relationship vs the mass-massacre and uncroaking of 2000+ people seem hardly comparable. Still, Wanda has been hinted to have a fairly twisted mind.

Theory 2: She blames Ansom for the destruction of Faq

Clues: The way Faq's downfall has been presented (incomplete information about a strange flight of dwagons, then a sudden "poof!") suggests, on a meta-story level, that the authors are setting us up for a secret twist. If the Jetstone side had been responsible, it would match the "good guys are not as heroic as they look" theme that Erfworld has going at the moment. Wanda and Jack (the two surviving units who actually saw what happened) are both surprisingly loyal to Stanley in this conflict. As some people have suggested, Stanley might have been their savior, rather than agressor. Was Jetstone the real culprit?

Counter-arguments: Ansom acts incredulous about Faq's existence the first time Jillian brings it up. Also, if Wanda blamed Jetstone for Faq's destruction, why hasn't she shared the story with Jillian?

Theory 3: Wanda popped to a now-extinct side older than Faq and Ansom is to blame for its destruction.

Clues: In the cast-page, Wanda is said to hail from the "Now-extinct Croatan tribe". At no time has the word "Croatan" been used in relation with Faq. Also, all Faq's human units we've seen were dark-skinned - the only exception is Jack and Wanda, which might suggest that they were turned/captured units. Another clue is Wanda's inexplicable loyalty to Stanley and unwillingness of bailing out from the conflict when offered the chance. The need for revenge on Ansom just might explain it. The cast page describes Wanda as lacking the "capacity for hope". Perhaps she has none left, and is ready to die herself if only for a chance to off Ansom before she goes.

Counter-arguments: the idea seems a bit convoluted and hinges on too many yet-urevealed story facts.

Approval/Disapproval of the 3 above?

Any other theories, however bizarre or convoluted, on the topic?

[The Minx]

As the one who first posted #3 (to the best of my knowledge), I'm obviously supporting that theory.

As for the objection: is it really convoluted? All it really needs is for the Croakan tribe to have been different from Faq and for it to have been destroyed by Ansom, everything else sort of follows from that. And it is superior to the other two in that:

1) Her claim that over two thousand deaths are less than what Ansom took from her seems a bit overblown if she were talking about Jillian.

2) We have never seen any indication that Faq = Croatan tribe, and anyway, Stanley is thought to have wiped that out. Of course, this might be a huge bluff by the authors, but still.

[Godskook]

1) Her claim that over two thousand deaths are less than what Ansom took from her seems a bit overblown if she were talking about Jillian.

Not really. Lovers have made such claims in other stories and in real life.

[OmniPaul]

I thought she was talking about the Arkenpliers, hence why she was like, "Touch me. Touch me with them."

[MickJay]

I thought she was talking about the Arkenpliers, hence why she was like, "Touch me. Touch me with them."

For me it was all about pliers as well. She's sure that if she touched them, she would instantly attune to them.

[Finwe]

As the one who first posted #3 (to the best of my knowledge), I'm obviously supporting that theory.

As for the objection: is it really convoluted? All it really needs is for the Croakan tribe to have been different from Faq and for it to have been destroyed by Ansom, everything else sort of follows from that. And it is superior to the other two in that:

1) Her claim that over two thousand deaths are less than what Ansom took from her seems a bit overblown if she were talking about Jillian.

2) We have never seen any indication that Faq = Croatan tribe, and anyway, Stanley is thought to have wiped that out. Of course, this might be a huge bluff by the authors, but still.

Keep in mind, it was 2,000 re-animations, not deaths, that Ansom was complaining about.

[Simanos]

I'm with the Jillian thing.
Though what if Ansom took the Arkenpliers from Wanda? How else is she so sure she can attune to them? Maybe she had them before. Maybe she even used them to protect her Croatan tribe and that's when Ansom took them.

[Bawon von Howse]

...I thought that it was the pliers as she was reaching out for them when 'he took them from her'

...however in response to the OP's point #2/3, I agree that there is probably a lot more that went on with the destruction of Faq than we have been made aware, which will most probably be revealed given due time. However the main problem I see with Ansom destroying her previous Croatan tribe is that as a caster she should have been captured croaked or disbanded, so if anyone destroyed the Croatan tribe, it would have probably been Banhammer!

[Strengfellow]

The pliers argument is growing on me.

However it is not beyong the realm of credulity that some combination of the three isn't the underlying reason behind Wanda's unrelenting emnity.

I like the woman scorned in favour of the one she blames for her peoples distruction who in turn stole from her a sacred artifact entrusted to her people by the Titans theory.

Eat your heart out Shakespear.

[Altima]

I also vote for the Jillian thing. After all, Wanda didn't kill all those people. She just turned them into uncroaked which is, admittedly, something she enjoys, as she's a croakamancer above anything else (and really hates using any other magic).

Characters are popped into existance. They didn't grow up with friends or families. Some people, like the royals, warlords, casters, and nobles may find life easier than the average grunt as they get to interact with other royals, warlords, casters, and nobles. Thus developing a kind of friendship.

This points out to me that relationships someone makes in Erfworld are on a whole different level. Wanda cared about Jillian who betrayed that trust. Not only that, but Wanda's spell backfired and fried her brain. I assume it didn't help that Jillian directly compared Wanda to Ansom in their last encounter (which basically went like this: you're better than Ansom, but Ansom treats me better, so I'm gonna dump you for Ansom. It's not you, it's me, blah, blah, blah--oh, and I'm going to go kill your Overlord so you're free and can watch me and Ansom be happy forever and ever and ever).

So it seems to me that Ansom took from Wanda what she cherished most in the world. Compared to that, yeah, it is actually less, seeing as how Ansom cares less for his mooks than Wanda does for her uncroaked. After all, a king can always pop out more infantry. I doubt Stanley can create a love interest for Wanda.

Lastly, you have to remember that Wanda's brain not work fine good stuff. She may be a tad bit...wacky, as illustrated by her apparent desire to be killed off. Her admittedly skewed morals may have taken a nose-dive thanks to the whiplash of her thinkamancy spell.

[Kreistor]

No, Ansom didn't cost her Jillian. Wanda never blamed Ansom, she realized she misjudged Jillian in the end. In the conversation of 94-95, Wanda never once said a word about Ansom.

What we do have is Jaclyn's, "She's under no loyalty spells."

Compare with Ansom's reaction to "S'lasssss than what you took from me", in which Ansom very clearly shows regret.

Ansom did something to Wanda, somewhere. And he knows it's his fault. It's bad enough that Wanda sided with Stanley, perhaps entirely because she knew she would come to face Ansom.

There's history here. Major history. It might have something to do with Faq, but I expect it will not be anything near obvious. Perhaps Ansom was asked to come to Faq's defence, but failed. Or maybe Wanda wound up with Jetstone after Stanley took Faq, and something happened there to someone Wanda desired. Who knows? There are a thousand possibilities.

[DevilDan]

No, Ansom didn't cost her Jillian. Wanda never blamed Ansom, she realized she misjudged Jillian in the end. In the conversation of 94-95, Wanda never once said a word about Ansom.

That's a matter of interpretation. In essence, Jillian chose Ansom over Wanda. As Wanda said, Jillian knew how important those dwagons were to GK. Of course, what Jillian said is that Wanda took her control too far.

In any event, I really am not laying any bets as to what the back story is. I don't think Faq's downfall was as simple as Jillian believes it to have been.

[The Minx]

Keep in mind, it was 2,000 re-animations, not deaths, that Ansom was complaining about.

Yes, nit-pick noted and acknowledged.

I thought she was talking about the Arkenpliers, hence why she was like, "Touch me. Touch me with them."

So, some previous undisclosed background where she possessed the arkenpliers or something like it? Come to think of it, that might work too, in fact. If so, I wonder whether Stanley knew about the connection.

[SteveMB]

Keep in mind, it was 2,000 re-animations, not deaths, that Ansom was complaining about.

Ansom sees them as abominations; Wanda sees them as the successful application of her favorite type of magic. Obviously, she isn't going to see Ansom's grievance as all that big a deal; to her, he's getting all bent out of shape over some silly hangup. (And that isn't even counting the normal human tendency to undervalue other people's issues in comparison than one's own.)

[TamLin]

Personally I think turning someone into a zombie is at least as bad as killing them in the first place. I certainly would be as angry about it.

I also wonder if that line was meant to be as ambiguous as everyone is has found it to be. I figured it was a comment about Jillian because, well, that's the first and only thing that occured to me upon reading it. The second possibility seems very far-fetched and so far has scant evidence to support it (no evidence, really, except perhaps the lack of contradictary evidence). As for the possibility that there's something big we don't know, well, that's always true.

EDIT: Also, not to nitpick, but some people are analyzing Ansom's expression after Wanda says the line in question. However, we can't see his face in that panel. We see only Wanda, and in the next panel we have a far shot of Ansom where his expression is unreadable. In the closeup panel he's reacting to Wanda's demand/request that he let her touch the pliers. He's more likely contemplating whether finishing her off is worth the risk of whatever will happen if the pliers touch her than reacting to her comment from before, so I don't think that tells us much.

[Capt'n Ironbrow]

Ansom caused Wanda to lose her sanity and gave her a mild aphasy also(through Jillian's feelings for him), which is quite a big deal for a high-level caster-councillor!

[SteveD]

I'm with option number 3.

We know Wanda popped to a different side instead of Faq, and we don't know why her (and Jack) have such fierce loyalty to Stanley. I'm betting its a subtle reference to untold backstory.

[SteveMB]

We know Wanda popped to a different side instead of Faq

Huh? I don't recall anything that would indicate that.

and we don't know why her (and Jack) have such fierce loyalty to Stanley. I'm betting its a subtle reference to untold backstory.

This part I agree with (except that it's not all that "subtle" at indicating the existence of a yet-unknown backstory).

[Altima]

As for their fierce loyalty, despite all of it, Stanley actually seems like a fairly nice guy. He's passionate. He is stubborn, but can be made to see reason. We don't know what other rulers are like, but your typical (stupid) villain Stanley ain't.

[K2]

It simple, Ansom is evil. He is the bad guy after all, his closet must be filled to the rim with skeletons, I would even dare to venture that some of te odies are not even done decomposing yet.
Ansom is obviously the second most evil character that we know of in the comic thus far. (Charlie is, of course, much more evil)

[Lord Zentei]

As for their fierce loyalty, despite all of it, Stanley actually seems like a fairly nice guy.

...say what?

[DevilDan]

(Charlie is, of course, much more evil)

To quote Lord Zentei, "...say what?"

[K2]

To quote Lord Zentei, "...say what?"

oh, I just kinda hate him right now, I understand why he did what he did, and why the comic is being written that way. I was just really looking forward to seeing an uncroaked Ansom beat Jillian to death with those pliers. And Charlie took that away from me.


Its just a very strange, kinda creepy, way my mind works, thing.

[SteveD]

Huh? I don't recall anything that would indicate that.

The cast page, obviously.

[teratorn]

We should keep in mind that Jillian's choice "broke" Wanda, and I'm not sure it was just the backlash from the spell. That would seem to favor 1).

So, some previous undisclosed background where she possessed the arkenpliers or something like it? Come to think of it, that might work too, in fact. If so, I wonder whether Stanley knew about the connection.

Wanda knew exactly how to engage and wrest the pliers from Ansom. That was a mighty staff (it blocked archon fire) but Ansom's words hint at the pliers doing something unexpected.

I like the idea of Ansom exterminating a croakamancy oriented tribe, for Jetstone that's an abomination. Wanda could be doing mercenary work at the time and thus escaped death, maybe she wasn't even a croakamancer then.

Of course this could fit into speculations that Wanda may have betrayed Faq, and may even be the mind behind Saline's death. The heir to a city holding an arkentool, and a non-royal, sure to raise Jetstone's anger if he ever became king?

The cast page, obviously.

The cast page doesn't say Jillian's tribe. She may be Croatan, we don't know Faq's tribe.

[SteveD]

The cast page doesn't say Jillian's tribe. She may be Croatan, we don't know Faq's tribe.

We don't need to. From the little we've seen of Faq it clearly has no cultural connection to Wanda. From all of Wanda's attire we've not seen anything remotely similar to the feudal-japan style garb of Faq. Its even less likely that a city based on philosophy would want to pop a coakmancer then it would a war-like heir. In addition to this there is nothing that connects the word 'coatan' to the orient that I can find. It is a supposedly extinct native American tribe.

Besides, I'm not convinced that Wanda was just referring to Jillian. It would make sense if her reasons for wanting to fight for Stanley were exactly the same as Jillians for Ansom.

But more then anything else my instincts tell me this was about unfolding the backstory a little further and setting out character motivations before jillians return, the full explanation and conclusion of the main plotline.

[teratorn]

We don't need to. From the little we've seen of Faq it clearly has no cultural connection to Wanda.

The same can be said for Sizemore yet he is plaid.

From all of Wanda's attire we've not seen anything remotely similar to the feudal-japan style garb of Faq.

Huh, what about #54? And we know Wanda eats sushi. Besides, we also don't see that in Jillian's attire while with RCC.

[SteveD]

And what do we know of the plaid?

Still not convinced. There's nothing to say that Wanda popped as a Faq unit, or anything connecting a native American tribe to an eastern-philosophical tribe. #54 can be dismissed as coincidental due to the time she spent in Faq.

I don't think 'Croatan' was picked at random. Its clearly a reference to something.

[Rhuna_Coppermane]

So it seems to me that Ansom took from Wanda what she cherished most in the world.

Seems that way to me, too. I vote #1.

[HPV]

I originally thought she meant Jill, but have to say that looking at it again, and particularly panels 6-9 of Page 122, I'm beginning to wonder whether she is talking about the Arkenpliers.
The dialogue is spread across 3 panels (6-8), but taking it all together, it looks to me like Wanda could indeed be talking about the pliers.

S'less than what you took from me. Touch me. Come down. Touch me with them.

Maybe I'm reading that dialogue together when it's not meant to be, but it is enough to make me wonder, and especially when combined with the look on Ansom's face in panel 8, and the way he's holding them in 9; Others have suggested that he's drawn back to strike, but it looks to me more like he's withdrawing them, as far from Wanda's reach as possible.

This theory might also explain why Ansom can't attune, the previous wielder still being alive, and, how Wanda was able to do, whatever it was she did to them, in panel one of page 120, to make ansom say "Here! what have you done to it?" (assuming, of course, he was talking about the pliers).

I'm sure time will tell, but as theories go I'm quite fond of it at the moment. :)