Erfworld #138 - The Discussion Thread

[Bawon von Howse]

...haven't read the threads yet, however all I can say is that...

I hope we see Parson doing some dance fighting...the Elvis manouevres are going to have to come into play!

[Malanthyus]

Stalingrad.

[Aquillion]

The dwagons + Stanley will be nice, but how many dwagons are left? How long will they last?

I really want to know what archons can and can't do.

Hopefully sometime this year

Going by what Parson said this turn, Stanley's bonus as a warlord + his artifact bonus might actually be more valuable than the dwagons, especially if it can apply to every single one of the bazillion uncroaked in Gobwin Knob.

[Whispri]

The dwagons + Stanley will be nice, but how many dwagons are left? How long will they last?

Six are seen flying with Stanley after the unpleasantness.

[chpicker]

...only 3 turns since he was summoned.

It doesn't invalidate your statements, but it's actually been 5 turns. Remember, he got a toy in his breakfast every morning: the glasses, the bracer, and the 3 pieces of the sword, with the third piece being just this morning. So this is the 5th day after the day he was summoned.

What I'd like to know is how are Maggie and Sizemore supposed to cast these shockamancy and thinkamancy spells during RCC's turn? I thought you could only cast on your own turn.

[SteveMB]

It doesn't invalidate your statements, but it's actually been 5 turns. Remember, he got a toy in his breakfast every morning: the glasses, the bracer, and the 3 pieces of the sword, with the third piece being just this morning. So this is the 5th day after the day he was summoned.

What I'd like to know is how are Maggie and Sizemore supposed to cast these shockamancy and thinkamancy spells during RCC's turn? I thought you could only cast on your own turn.

It may depend on the type of spell. We've seen at least one example of a spell cast off-turn ("Ephedra", immediately before it was explicitly established that GK's turn had not begun).

[Clamps]

Groups of units get a stack bonus that maxes at 8, so you see a lot of 8-man formations

I have a feeling that Parson's going to lead a formation of 2,600 uncroaked units, and Wanda. That's what he's talking about.

I'd really like to see some explanation of why that's not common practice, though. Presumably, you have to move a stack as one unit (a la Warhammer 40k), so you need room to maneuver. But why isn't Ansom doing it now?

[Hatu]

There is no "might." Stanley spent 1 turn's worth of Dwagon move traveling away from the Knob, then spent half a turn's worth of Dwagon move traveling to the ambush hex, then spent his remaining move traveling back toward the Knob.

1 + 1/2 - 1/2 = 1. Therefore Stanley is 1 turn away from Gobwin Knob and should arrive shortly after the RCC's turn ends.

I don't think it's ever been stated exactly how much of the dwagon's move was used up before encountering the Transilvito units. It must have been at least 1 hex, and the dwagons clearly had enough move left to flee the hex. But beyond that it's hard to say for certain. Given that the dwagons had less than their full movement when they left Gobwin Knob, the odds are good that they'll return during this turn. But that is not guaranteed.

He's got all the magick users, the most defensible position in all the land, the bracer and a heap of pre-prepared spells. By the time he's done most of Ansome's seige will be disabled, the leadership will be neutralised or disbanded, enemy troops will be as powerful as rag dolls all getting ready to attack an army holed up in it's own defensive position within the tower with god knows what nasty traps awaiting them inside (remember the hand torches?)

Parson mentions turning the garrison into a meat grinder, and having a courtyard full of dead to uncroak. I don't think he's going to stop the siege at all. It sounds like he plans to let them breech the wall once he's ready for them.

This was a good strip. It's nice to get a feel for Paron's plan and the idea that force multipliers have a major impact on Erfworld combat makes some sense from what we've seen. But I'm still very confused by actual game mechanics. Parson plans to surgically strike at Ansom's leadership units, but I don't understand how it's possible for him to do so with impunity. Ansom was able to ally with the Archons and have them zorch Wanda before she could flee; how is it possible that Sizemore is expected to be able to flee before reinforcements can attack him? For that matter, how is it even possible to engage the leadership units individually? If they aren't "with" units that could help defend them, doesn't that mean they aren't actually lending their leadership bonus to most units in the first place? But if they are lending their bonus, shouldn't those units be able to intervene in some way and take advantage of the leader's multipliers? It seems very convenient that those multipliers can be used to boost troops, but those troops cannot likewise be used to defend their leaders. I like the plan, but it seems extremely convenient.

Also, I note that Parson mentions uncroaking the dead on his turn. That seems to be a mistake. Wanda begins animating the fliers immediately after she killed them on Ansom' turn on page 98. Her flying mount is certainly animated on page 103, which takes place the night after Ansom's turn, and definitely before Parson's next turn. So it has been possible to uncroak units out of turn in the past. Is there some specific reason why that should not be possible in this case?

-H

[Whispri]

As for the Dwagons, it should also be pointed out that move seems to increase as units level and the weakest Dwagons probably didn't make it.

....Parson plans to surgically strike at Ansom's leadership units, but I don't understand how it's possible for him to do so with impunity. Ansom was able to ally with the Archons and have them zorch Wanda before she could flee; how is it possible that Sizemore is expected to be able to flee before reinforcements can attack him? For that matter, how is it even possible to engage the leadership units individually? If they aren't "with" units that could help defend them, doesn't that mean they aren't actually lending their leadership bonus to most units in the first place? But if they are lending their bonus, shouldn't those units be able to intervene in some way and take advantage of the leader's multipliers? It seems very convenient that those multipliers can be used to boost troops, but those troops cannot likewise be used to defend their leaders. I like the plan, but it seems extremely convenient.

Also, I note that Parson mentions uncroaking the dead on his turn. That seems to be a mistake. Wanda begins animating the fliers immediately after she killed them on Ansom' turn on page 98. Her flying mount is certainly animated on page 103, which takes place the night after Ansom's turn, and definitely before Parson's next turn. So it has been possible to uncroak units out of turn in the past. Is there some specific reason why that should not be possible in this case?

-H

Tunnelling. Sizemore can come up from beneath, kick boop and then head down. This is actually mentioned in the orders Parson gives him, and is likely why the Siege Units are rolling forward under the heaviest possible guard.

As far as Uncroaking goes, it would seem that either mass Uncroaking spells can only be cast on your own turn, or that Wanda just doesn't have enought juice to do that again today. Or both of course.

[Balance]

Hamster's going to go for the dance fight bonus. The undead will go stomp-stomp-clap, Hamster will provide the lyrics, and the Knights will provide the chorus of We will, we will, ROCK YOU! Nothing ensures a dance fight bonus like Queen.

I was thinking of the uncroaked doing the Thriller dance, but this is a beautiful image. Shouldn't it be Sizemore and the golems doing the "ROCK YOU!" as they pop up through the ground, though?

[MadMaw]

I hope we see Parson doing some dance fighting...the Elvis manouevres are going to have to come into play!

Given the zombies, more likely to be Michael Jackson's Thriller, ala Dr McNinja

Edit: oops too slow.

[Hatu]

Parson, having realized a few more of his own advantages, despite a lack of cooperation from his own forces, is fully exploiting the rules as he's figured them out...only 3 turns since he was summoned. Quite effective of him, I'd say.

3 turns ago, he faced 25:1 odds against him, had no idea what the "rules" were, had no possible way of knowing his own advantages and weaknesses, and was suffering a massive headache, not to mention antagonism and distrust from his own leader, and distrust from his own subordinates.

Your calender is off. Pason has already completed 5 full turns since he was first summoned. His next turn will be his sixth.

Also, I've seen no actual evidence that he was ever facing 25:1 odds. According to Klog #7, Gobwin Knob had 786 units in it. According to the ErfWorld brochure on page 86, the RCC numbers a total of 9,751 units at that time. That's a 12.4:1 ratio.

When Parson was first summoned things were a bit different, but that difference was actually in GK's favor. Prior to the "donut of doom" fiasco, Parson had an additional 21 or so dwagons, 3 warlords and 3 knights to command, and there has been no mention of any additional forces appearing to offset those loses. So in order to have faced 25:1 odds around day 1, that would mean the RCC coalition would have had to number somewhere around 20,000 units, or roughly 10,000 more units than it has on day 4.

We are told that the donut of doom wiped out 40% of Ansom's siege on page 56, but there's no mention of any other serious casualties. And certainly no one ever reacts as though the gambit annihilated more than half of the RCC's total assault force. So I am forced to conclude that the 25:1 comment was in error.

-H

[SteveMB]

[QUOTE=Hatu;5649077]I don't think it's ever been stated exactly how much of the dwagon's move was used up before encountering the Transilvito units. It must have been at least 1 hex, and the dwagons clearly had enough move left to flee the hex. But beyond that it's hard to say for certain. Given that the dwagons had less than their full movement when they left Gobwin Knob, the odds are good that they'll return during this turn. But that is not guaranteed./QUOTE]

My guess is that both Stanley and Jillian will show up tomorrow, bringing the major dramatis personae onto the scene. The distance between GK and the choke point is implied to be about 52 (Jillian, who knows the local terrain, chose 26+ Move as the cutoff for a task force that took two moves to arrive at the choke point). If she decides to head back without waiting for anybody else (which would be just like her IMO), and her current gwiffon is as fast as her previous one, she can cover that distance in one turn....

Spoiler

Show

...and perhaps only just cover that distance, and thus run out of Move and find herself unable to reach a city zone she would otherwise be able to enter after stabitty-chop-chopping her way through the enemy lines?

[Whispri]

The hex she started from would have been slightly further away from the ambush site than Gobwin Knob is mind.

Your calender is off. Pason has already completed 5 full turns since he was first summoned. His next turn will be his sixth.

Also, I've seen no actual evidence that he was ever facing 25:1 odds. According to Klog #7, Gobwin Knob had 786 units in it. According to the ErfWorld brochure on page 86, the RCC numbers a total of 9,751 units at that time. That's a 12.4:1 ratio.

When Parson was first summoned things were a bit different, but that difference was actually in GK's favor. Prior to the "donut of doom" fiasco, Parson had an additional 21 or so dwagons, 3 warlords and 3 knights to command, and there has been no mention of any additional forces appearing to offset those loses. So in order to have faced 25:1 odds around day 1, that would mean the RCC coalition would have had to number somewhere around 20,000 units, or roughly 10,000 more units than it has on day 4.

We are told that the donut of doom wiped out 40% of Ansom's siege on page 56, but there's no mention of any other serious casualties. And certainly no one ever reacts as though the gambit annihilated more than half of the RCC's total assault force. So I am forced to conclude that the 25:1 comment was in error.

-H

The twenty five to one thing could have meant a comparison of combat values. Also, Wanda could have been including the reinforcements that are available to the RCC, Translyvyto could have arrived in force before the column did after all, who knows what else could have been whistled up?

[dr pepper]

So exactly how else do you capture a castle?

I read a short history of castles once that claimed that most of the instances of a major one changing hands were due to treachery or seige, and that successful storming was rare. I don't know enough to judge the accuracy of the claim, but i do suspect that in stories and ballads (ie the popular media), storming would have been overrepresented since it's more interesting.

[Aquillion]

Also, I note that Parson mentions uncroaking the dead on his turn. That seems to be a mistake. Wanda begins animating the fliers immediately after she killed them on Ansom' turn on page 98. Her flying mount is certainly animated on page 103, which takes place the night after Ansom's turn, and definitely before Parson's next turn. So it has been possible to uncroak units out of turn in the past. Is there some specific reason why that should not be possible in this case?

Most likely the mass-uncroak trick that he wants Wanda to do here is something that can only be done on your turn, like Veiling -- it counts as casting a proper 'spell', and as we were told with that, you can't cast outside your turn.

But you can still use magic outside your turn, obviously -- combat things like Shockamancy, or the EyeBooks and table, or the Archons' death rays, or triggering the air defenses. My guess would be that uncroaking individual units one by one by hand is something like that -- Wanda has it as a 'special attack' or something rather than as a proper spell.

At least, I've seen several games with mechanics that work something like that.

[Clamps]

We are told that the donut of doom wiped out 40% of Ansom's siege on page 56, but there's no mention of any other serious casualties. And certainly no one ever reacts as though the gambit annihilated more than half of the RCC's total assault force. So I am forced to conclude that the 25:1 comment was in error.

-H

Stanly originally says it was 10 to one, and Wanda says "more like 25 to one". Perhaps it was 10-to-1 in terms of numbers, and 25-to-1 in terms of power (in other words, Ansom's units were higher level)

[Ganurath]

I was thinking of the uncroaked doing the Thriller dance, but this is a beautiful image. Shouldn't it be Sizemore and the golems doing the "ROCK YOU!" as they pop up through the ground, though?

Under normal circumstances, but Sizemore's role in the battle plan is to act as a proxy to Tucker's Kobolds, targetting the enemy leaders.

Edit: On the other hand, there could be a cutaway panel to Sizemore's marauding during the lines "You got mud on your face, you big disgrace!"

[dr pepper]

...haven't read the threads yet, however all I can say is that...

I hope we see Parson doing some dance fighting...the Elvis manouevres are going to have to come into play!

I wanna see Parson and Bogroll get the RCC in a mosh pit!

[the_tick_rules]

Ansom is so predictable.

[Eraniverse]

Ender's game Mary Sueness...

Wow. Deep analyzing skills at work there.

[slurpz]

Heh heh heh.

[Stormthorn]

No time to plan and manuever? Too late for that Ansem.

[Gloverboy]

"Tonight we dine on Lord Stanley's Booty!!" Oh man. I thought this was just gonna be a hardcore strip of awesome battle plans and such. The Joy of Erfworld. Awesome battles, wonderful quirky humor. It's like my new Buffy.

[DevilDan]

I read a short history of castles once that claimed that most of the instances of a major one changing hands were due to treachery or seige, and that successful storming was rare. I don't know enough to judge the accuracy of the claim, but i do suspect that in stories and ballads (ie the popular media), storming would have been overrepresented since it's more interesting.

I think that I've encountered similar claims. I've heard something of that sort said about the Great Wall of China.

[Welf]

That's the way to start the day: with a new, exiting Erf-update :D

[Ganurath]

No time to plan and manuever? Too late for that Ansem.

Planning in real time is inconceivable, remember?

[Sebastian]

In the previous thread, we had a couple of "not Parson fans" ranting about his lack of ability as a warlord, and also bemoaning the "boring" nature of Ansom getting all the "lucky breaks".

And now, it comes down to this...

Parson, having realized a few more of his own advantages, despite a lack of cooperation from his own forces, is fully exploiting the rules as he's figured them out...only 3 turns since he was summoned. Quite effective of him, I'd say.

I don't disagree with you but I think they are more than 3 turns, if we count the toys he got they was the 3d glasses, the mathamancy armband and the 3 pieces of the sword, so that must be the fifth turn. It is still impressive, tho.

[Morchaint]

I liked this comic. none of the oh wait I dont know what to do. or wait for the next one for some action. its oh yea. we know whats going on.

vs. Im not an idiot so Im going to make mistakes lol

lol great comic.

Game on! *bloodshed commencing*

[Lemarc]

I read a short history of castles once that claimed that most of the instances of a major one changing hands were due to treachery or seige, and that successful storming was rare. I don't know enough to judge the accuracy of the claim, but i do suspect that in stories and ballads (ie the popular media), storming would have been overrepresented since it's more interesting.

Strategically speaking, it's better not to assault fortified cities at all. Let the enemy hide in their hole while you pillage their countryside, ransack their crops, steal their livestock and burn down their towns, so that they'll be forced to come out and deal with you on the field.
At least, in theory.