Levels stack feats (Asetic Hunter, Rogue, etc.)

[togapika]

What are the best ways to make use of the feats that allow two classes to stack for the purposes of some of their abilities?
By best I mean both what gives the best sorts of bonuses, as well as which abilities mesh together the best.

[JonestheSpy]

I dunno about "best", i'm not that much of a numbers cruncher. I will say that I like a lot of those feats, as they allow some viability for creative multiclassing combinations that otherwise just wouldn't work too well.

[Kaihaku]

The answers seem fairly straight forward unless the question is actually what cheesy things can I pull off with these feats.

[Vonriel]

I've looked through them before, because the ideas behind them are neat, but the only one I really, truly liked was Swift Hunter. The others just didn't seem to do enough to make them worthwhile, or at first seemed like they did, then they bring in the disadvantage to taking it.

Edit: I'm without books or bookmarked sites right now, so, sorry I can't be more specific.

[AtomicKitKat]

Well, it helps some of those classes where multi-classing removes progression in their abilities(compared to "merely" losing spell-casting). Sorcerors are the only full-casters who get such a feat(with Monk, which is very feature-heavy, although not all the features are really useful), and the only non-casters ignored are Fighters and Barbarians.

[RTGoodman]

I like the idea, though not all of them are the best thing ever. (The Swashbuckler/Fighter one is particularly lackluster - you don't get bonus Fighter feats with your Swashbuckler levels, but you count as a higher-level Fighter for QUALIFYING for feats. )

Swift Hunter is good (you can look up the innumerable "Swift Hunter Optimization" threads across the interwebs for more info), and some other help with specific builds (Bard/Paladin, Sorcerer/Monk, etc.), but for the most part I'm not usually interested in them.

[...] and the only non-casters ignored are Fighters and Barbarians.

That not entirely correct - I know there's at least one Fighter one (with Swashbuckler, as I mentioned above), but I don't think there're any for Barbarian.

[Vonriel]

I think I was mainly thinking of the line of feats involving the monk. Sure, they seem nice, but as I recall, it seemed like none of them gave full progression or the full benefit of the ability. For example, I'm fairly certain one allowed levels to stack for stunning fist usage, but not for the save DC, which is already rather low to begin with.

The one thing I did like about the ascetic feats was that they all allowed you to multiclass freely - or, I'm fairly certain all of them did - between monk and the other class.

[RandomLunatic]

Daring Outlaw makes the Swashbuckler a 17-level class, as opposed to three.

[Eldariel]

All the Fighter-ones just suck, but the ones that transfer key class features like Sneak Attack or Skirmish are pretty good. With this in mind, Daring Outlaw and Swift Hunter are the good ones. Devoted Tracker has its niché (related to stacking animal companion and mount) and Ascetic Mage is classically used for Cha to AC, but other than that, they aren't really worth much. Honorary mention goes to Tashalatora for making Monk-abilities accessible for non-sucky characters (even though it's technically not of the same chain).

[AtomicKitKat]

The real bonus comes when you "backdoor" your way to acquiring the pre-requisite abilities, thus giving you "ghost levels". Then the key to ephemeral, pseudo-ultimate kind-of power will be yours!

[jcsw]

Why has no one mentioned song of the white raven yet?

[Person_Man]

They're generally useful around ECL 6-8ish, because most classes have their best class features front loaded. Beyond that though, they're mostly a waste because multi-classing denies you a classes highest level abilities (Rangers and Paladins are denied their best spells, Rogues are denied Special Abilities, Scouts are denied Hide in Plain Site and Free Movement, etc).

[Fax Celestis]

I'm still rather fond of Monk 3/Paladin 3 with Ascetic Knight and Serenity into Sun Soul Monk.

[Vortling]

Daring Outlaw makes the Swashbuckler a 17-level class, as opposed to three.

You're still often better off going with 3 levels of Swashbuckler with your 17 levels of Rogue as the Rogue high level specials are much nicer.

[Jack_Simth]

Let's see...

In Gestalt, the Ascetic feats mean that you can PrC out without losing progression where you otherwise would, and cram more class features in than you'd get otherwise (e.g., the Sorcerer-5/Mage of the Arcane Order-10/Abjurant Champion-5//Paladin-5/Monk-15 with Ascetic Mage and Ascetic Knight has the Smite Evil of a Paladin-15, the Unarmed Strike damage of a Monk-20, the Smite Evil damage of a Monk-20, the casting of a Sorcerer-20, the AC bonus of a Monk-20, uses Charisma instead of Wisdom for AC, and has Charisma to all saves. With Monk as a Favored Class, there's even no multiclassing penalties if your DM happens to enforce those.

[Ascension]

I'm personally fond of Scout/Rogue with Swift Ambusher and Improved Skirmish, also known as "I get to throw all the d6s!" Throw in Craven, too, if you can swing it. Oh, sure, you're worthless against things immune to precision damage, but against everything else...

[Aquillion]

Well, it helps some of those classes where multi-classing removes progression in their abilities(compared to "merely" losing spell-casting). Sorcerors are the only full-casters who get such a feat(with Monk, which is very feature-heavy, although not all the features are really useful), and the only non-casters ignored are Fighters and Barbarians.

The monk one doesn't do much, though. It just lets them stack for the monk AC bonus and lets you trade spells for their level in a bonus to hit and damage. Woo.

In general, the ones that are good are the ones that continue actually vital class features -- stuff you'd make a build based around, not minor advantages. Sacred Outlaw is nice, say, because using it, a cleric can get a full Sneak Attack bonus from one level and a feat -- mind you, still an absolutely terrible choice for a full-caster, but you'll still be decent compared to non-full-casters, and really really really make SA-focused rogues look terrible (especially when you cast Divine Power and throw around full-BAB full-sneak-attacks...)

Hmm. Shared Rage is interesting. I'm tempted to think about a build that takes enough levels in Ranger to get an Animal Companion, then going Barbarian, then Bear Warrior, which means I turn into a giant black bear when I rage and get huge bonuses. The feat says my animal companion gets the same bonuses from a rage that I do, so I'm now two giant black bears with massive bonuses.

Swift Avenger is obviously awesome for a scout, since it grants them full Wild Shape with full Skirmish Damage. There has to be a nasty use for that. Turn into something with Pounce and go to town.

[TempusCCK]

I'm personally fond of Scout/Rogue with Swift Ambusher and Improved Skirmish, also known as "I get to throw all the d6s!" Throw in Craven, too, if you can swing it. Oh, sure, you're worthless against things immune to precision damage, but against everything else...

Take Rogue 3 and switch Trap Sense for Penetrating Strike variant from Dungeonscape. Situational bonus to my already insane reflex save in exchange for the ability to apply half precision damage to undead and constructs? Hell yeah, sign me up!

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Take Rogue 3 and switch Trap Sense for Penetrating Strike variant from Dungeonscape. Situational bonus to my already insane reflex save in exchange for the ability to apply half precision damage to undead and constructs? Hell yeah, sign me up!

DM:Congratulations. The next dungeon is now filled with plants and oozes. PLANTS AND OOZES!!!1!

[Fax Celestis]

DM:Congratulations. The next dungeon is now filled with plants and oozes. PLANTS AND OOZES!!!1!

And in one exemplary case, a plant-ooze.

[Ascension]

And in one exemplary case, a plant-ooze.

AN UNDEAD CONSTRUCT PLANT-OOZE!

Spoiler

Show

Yes, I know, the Undead Construct part negates the advantages of the Plant Ooze part in this particular situation. Still, it felt like the logical escalation. Then give it class levels in Ninja and Dread Pirate...

[TempusCCK]

That's alright, I'm pretty sure that there are no plants or oozes that have a speed higher than 30. Either way, Rogue still 'wins'.

[elonin]

This is one reason why swift hunter is better especially if they take favored enemy undead, ooze, and plant. Anyway most of my rogues have UMD maxed so has some options vs these types.

[Ascension]

This is one reason why swift hunter is better especially if they take favored enemy undead, ooze, and plant.

See, I really don't get this. I'd rather have UBER precision damage against most things, partial precision damage vs. undead and constructs, and no precision damage vs. oozes and plants than to have just Skirmish progression (no Sneak Attack) vs. everything.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

See, I really don't get this. I'd rather have UBER precision damage against most things, partial precision damage vs. undead and constructs, and no precision damage vs. oozes and plants than to have just Skirmish progression (no Sneak Attack) vs. everything.

Skirmish is a whole different progression from SA. It's less raw damage, but better for defenses, better at low levels, easier to activate, and better at range. The range especially is what makes it nice with a Ranger dip.

[Curmudgeon]

Take Rogue 3 and switch Trap Sense for Penetrating Strike variant from Dungeonscape.

Good start, but don't stop at Rogue 3. With Swift Ambusher you only want 3 Scout levels and all the rest Rogue. You get all but 3 of your possible sneak attack boosting levels, and also full skirmish damage. The feat really works poorly if you instead have only the minimum Rogue level and lots of Scout; you also get full skirmish damage, but not much sneak attack that way.

One level stacking feat that I particularly like is Sacred Outlaw (from Dragon # 357), which stacks Cleric and Rogue levels for sneak attack dice and undead turning. Use the Cloistered Cleric variant (6 skill points/level!) and you're in good shape. You don't get any improvement from your Cloistered Cleric levels in armor, shields, or hit points, but it's not worse than straight Rogue either. And Cleric (of any sort) gives you lots of options with domains and spells. You will get poor BAB, but when you get to 7th Cleric level you can fix that entirely with Divine Power. And the undead turning can power nifties like Travel Devotion (Complete Champion), which synergizes well with sneak attack and skirmish.

[Ascension]

Good start, but don't stop at Rogue 3. With Swift Ambusher you only want 3 Scout levels and all the rest Rogue. You get all but 3 of your possible sneak attack boosting levels, and also full skirmish damage.

Right, this is what I'm talking about. In my mind near-full SA and full Skirmish beats full Skirmish that happens to be able to hurt plants and oozes. You still get most of the Skirmishy goodness, but with SA piled on top of it.

[RMS Oceanic]

Swift Hunter makes for a nice Archer Build, especially if you get a splitting bow and Greater Manyshot. If playing Gestalt, this can be coupled with Soulknife/Soulbow for even greater effect, especially if your DM lets you manifest a splitting bow.

[JellyPooga]

The next game I'm in where the DM lets me, I'm going to play a Catfolk Scout 3/Monk 2/Ranger 15 with Ascetic Hunter and Swift Hunter. Not exactly a mega-powerhouse, but Lvl. 18 Skirmish/Favoured Enemy, Lvl. 17 Monk Unarmed Strike and all the Ranger goodies sounds nice to me.

Add various variants (Champion of the Wild, Spiritual Guide, Arcane Hunter, Spell Reflection and Dungeon Specialist) to switch out spellcasting and animal companion for Feats/Skill Bonuses, have "Arcanist" as a Favoured Enemy, replace the redundant Evasion from Ranger Lvl.9 and get 20ft Climb speed (respectively) and I think I've got a fairly reasonable skirmisher/anti-mage build.