OOTS #632 - The Discussion Thread

[hamishspence]

I think there is a view that demons and devils were actually derived from the older daemons- when the idea moved to a diferent culture, the beings were portrayed as more evil.

in 3.5, the predecessors of the baatezu and the tanar'ri as inhabitants of those particular planes (the Ancient Baatorians and the Obyriths) are suggested as descended from the baernoloths- really ancient yugoloths.

so, precursors of modern demons and devils are suggested to be descended from precursors of yugoloths (daemons)

[Faramir]

Moderately old joke for a comic who's just travelled a substantial distance to be at a show: "I just flew in from Yonkers and boy are my arms tired."

Implication being that the comic flew in by flapping his arms.

Problem is the outsider in question muffs the setup line since there's no way "transfered my conciousness from the lower planes" should make your arms tired unless the somatic components are really over the top (and spell-like abilities have no somatic components in any case).

Presumably the outsider muffing the line IS the joke, I found it amusing, but then I'm familiar with the original.

(Multiply ninja'd due to slow board.)

I'm also assuming he's the chaotic one so it makes sense that way.

[hamishspence]

however, he also gives the legalese speech. So I can't tell for sure which is which from the info given.

[RedScholarGypsy]

Sorry to interrupt the conversation, but am I the only one who saw Terry Pratchett's Auditors in these three guys? Was probably mentioned when they first appeared to Sabine, though.

[Hatu]

It seems like the advanced Time Stop effect has spilled over onto the message board...

Guess the IFCC is just that powerful. :-p

I still don't like where this arc is leading, but this comic was at least funny. That definitely helps.

-H

[Mr. Pin]

It seems like the strip is moving so slowly... Obviously, this was a well-written and rather funny strip, but I had expected V to be getting powers and killing stuff by now.

Still, it only seems slow because of the comic-by-comic format, I'm sure. Great comic, and I can't wait for the next one.

[Tingel]

Based on the little information we can glean about the trio of fiends from this strip, my guess is that Cedric is the one with the purple eyes and font, Nero is orange and Lee is yellow.

Cedric opens with a joke, and while he shouts "good gods, y'all!" he seems to be flailing his arms around. I know this is very adventurous guesswork, but he strikes me as the most "chaotic" of the three. And since Cedric the demon is standing on the right, Lee the devil should be standing on the left, with the neutral daemon Nero inbetween. Lee's quote about "special permission to intercede on this account" even makes him sound as if he is rather used to bureaucratic expressions, which fits my assumption that he is the Lawful one.

I know, it's not much. But this forum is used to wild theories, so here you go.

[bluewind95]

I'm still hoping that V can both, save his/her family and keep his/her soul.

[Horatio@Bridge]

Can anyone provide a transcript of what the fiends said (especially the one with the purple script on the black background--incredibly hard to read, dark script on a dark background...)?

[Zael Zuran]

I seem to recall way back in first edition AD&D's DM's guide, there being a little chart with the colors of the alignments. I don't have a copy here anymore, and can't find it anywhere online. (If you can confirm this, thanks. That book was raw chaos. But it was worth the hassle just to have characters able to rampage through Gamma World and Boot Hill :)

But I really seem to remember that Chaotic Evil was purple, again implying Cedrik as the purple one.

Lee should be the one referencing: "We got special permission," and "waiting on final approval."

Nero is likely the one doing all the talking about cooperation.

And (the presumed) Cedrik appears content to tell jokes, implying he needs to take time on deals, and also tossing out a completely random bit of legalese that serves no purpose but to say: "You will like this. If not? Not my problem." Its perfectly fitting for demons to create labyrinthine laws they have no intention of observing themselves.

As a business model, they probably work as follows.

Nero is the likely manager, out of necessity, stressing common ground and goals.

Lee is the accountant / lawyer.

Cedrik, the salesman, in charge of the actual temptation. Not likely to matter much, since V is an aggressive buyer based on V's immediate need.

[Silverraptor]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

I loved this comic! Of course you'd expect that Hell would go into bureacracy after the poetic versions of creatures tearing stuff apart. Anyways the pun with the names were the best part. Me and SandyCaesar were cracking up when we read that together and were cracking up. Too bad the forum was still broken at the time. Or we would have said something.

One more thing. What's the difference between Demon and Daemon instead of the extra "a"?

[Liriel]

Can anyone provide a transcript of what the fiends said (especially the one with the purple script on the black background--incredibly hard to read, dark script on a dark background...)?

Glad I'm not the only one who found the purple text difficult to read.

[Andre Fairchilde]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!


One more thing. What's the difference between Demon and Daemon instead of the extra "a"?

In 2d ed it used to be the Demon was CE while Daemon's were NE.

Things have changed with 3.0, 3.5, and now 4.0.

[hamishspence]

in D&D, daemon was old name for what eventually came to be known as yugoloths- NE rather than CE. They were mercenaries- tended to be allies of the drow in old adventures- the Against the Giants series.

I'm not positive, but I think the name was changing from daemon to yugoloth, even in 2nd ed. the first 3.0 hardback source with them was Manual of the Planes.

in mythology- daemons were guardian spirits. Phillip Pullman went with this version. I think they were portrayed as evil much later, then the name changed- to demons- and they became associated with fallen angels.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Can anyone provide a transcript of what the fiends said (especially the one with the purple script on the black background--incredibly hard to read, dark script on a dark background...)?

Sure, why not. Of course, I'll probably be ninja'd a dozen times before I finish typing...

Panel 3: I just transfered my consiousness from the Lower Planes and boy, are my arms tired!

Panel 4: A community-based grassroots organization dedicated to building bridges between the diabolic, daemoinic and demonic populations.

Panel 6: Good gods, y'all!

Panel 7: We don't like being rushed when making a deal.

Panel 9: *Based on typical wild imagining of previous customers matching your demographic profile. Additional terms and restrictions may apply.

At least, that's how I make them out.

[Zael Zuran]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
One more thing. What's the difference between Demon and Daemon instead of the extra "a"?

Back when they first showed up? (The D series modules or original Fiend Folio, I think. Not sure which was actually published first, offhand.)

They were Neutral Evil. Plus, their magic resistance was scaled to spell level, if I'm remembering right. Probably minor differences regarding damage type resistances and innate abilities.

Over time, along with the Fiendish name changes and Blood War stuff in 2nd edition, they were given some more cultural definition. The original Monster Manual II had a chunk of information on them. 2nd ed Manual of the Planes and Planescape probably do them more justice, but I have neither at my disposal.

[Mauve Shirt]

So V was preapproved by Sabine's superiors... Fascinating!

[Zael Zuran]

So, what do these three see as an opportunity in the snarl?

A chance to wipe out those too stubborn to cease the Blood War, so they can proceed with their new agenda?

Even professional deceivers are frequently deceived. Most often by their own ambitions.

[Porthos]

So V was preapproved by Sabine's superiors... Fascinating!

This also might explain how a CE Succubus (if Sabine really is a Succubus) sees nothing wrong, and in fact is quite happy to be working with a LE Human. If indeed she is with an organization that is trying to curtail the Blood War, then it makes perfect sense.

AIUI, that was one of the biggest objections toward Sabine being a Succubus. I.e. her superiors wouldn't like it if she was so chummy with someone who was LE, nevermind spending so much time and resources on him. Now this comic, in one fell swoop, sets aside that argument.

'course because Sabine works for the IFCC, we still can't tell which type of outsider she is. In fact all the IFCC does, in true Lost fashion, is add more questions while answering old ones.

Well done, Rich.

[Prak]

Hmm...I may be wrong, but isn't that the group of Fiends that Sabine was dealing with way back when she reported the existance of the Snarl to her overlords?

They certainly look it. I do like the idea of an organization of fiends who see the blood war as pointless, it makes evil seem sensible, for once, rather than it's usual "Saturday Morning Cartoon" villiany...

I think I've figured out what kind of fiend each one is...
Purple eyes is a demon (random jokes and interjections, means he's representing the random portrayal of chaos, which is par for this course...)
Orange eyes is a yugoloth (he's the one that brings up the slogan which is quite neutral in nature)
Yellow eyes is a devil (he's all business)
we also know that they're all (well, with the possible exception of the demon) "male", because they all have male names and fiends have no reason for ironic names, except demons. Although Yellow doesn't really have a physical sex unless he's a duke, but he can have a gender identity, and a demon's sex is more or less coincidental...

[Kaytara]

Great update. :) I simply love the way Rich foreshadows things. This also explains the ambiguity of Sabine's creature type. And the idea of the forces of Evil trying to work together is creepy.
I suppose the IFCC group may see the Snarl as an opportunity - a common enemy for the entire force of evil to unite itself against.
Also... Really random here, but the "Greetings!" (and) "Salutations!" line totally reminded me of what one Necromancer-turned-Lich hero in Might and Magic 8 says. XD

Character-wise, this is very important. Whatever Vaarsuvius decides now, he cannot claim to have been influenced by the pressure of time. He now has the chance to prioritize carefully and think things out.
That may not change much, though. Unless he requests that they go and intervene themselves (unlikely, because he sees that as his own responsibility), he still needs that power to defeat the dragon.

That said, I don't think it's time for the four words yet. For one thing, there are three beings here, and if V accepts anything on the spot he will be addressing all three of them.
But mostly, I think Vaarsuvius has to earn his power somehow. His question was "How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power?" (emphasis mine)
Getting it on a golden platter doesn't seem to count as achieving it. Reaping the rewards from his own efforts rather than just luck or someone's assistance also seems to be very important for Vaarsuvius. ("I will conquer this obstacle through my own diligence or not at all!")

If, during the bargaining, Vaarsuvius manages to think of a different way to save his family, rendering the power boost unnecessary, he may turn down the offer of power precisely because he wants to earn it rather than just redeem a gift certificate.

I suppose those COULD be the four words, after all. "I decline your offer", not because he's too squeamish to strike a bargain with the forces of darkness, but because he's too proud to rely on their help, which can easily count as the wrong reason for doing so. Then, through some twist or perhaps as the result of Vaarsuvius thus passing some hidden personality test, he would end up getting that power anyway.

[Zael Zuran]

PURE SPECULATION

They are probably motivated by the snarl. They are now attempting to enlist V as their 2nd major player, who happens to be, well, snarled up in this gate fiasco. (Nale by proxy via Sabine being the other.)

I suspect each of these three has their own agenda regarding V, Nale, and the snarl; being fiends and all.

Lee, is the most likely to want to keep the snarl bound, as the one most prone to honor the arrangements that led to its imprisonment. But Lee is also the one most prone to ferret out loopholes to pervert the original intent if it can be turned to his personal advantage. Hardly benevolent.

Nero, the most likely to see it as a great opportunity to be leveraged, in through either the use of its freedom as an active weapon or extortion contingent on its continued bondage. Most likely to release the snarl out of spite if his doom seems inevitable.

Cedrik, the most likely to view it as a dangerous and wholly irresistable temptation that keeps him up at night scheming. The one most likely to incorrectly see a kindred spirit in the snarl, that would somehow care about how clever a fiend was, despite having a documented habit of eating gods.

If we consider the Nale / Sabine grouping as being more in Lee's camp, and V as being a more "ends justifying the means" adherent to Nero's philosophy...

It is possible there is (or will be) another agent courted by Cedrik, with a similar attitude towards mayhem. A certain lich perhaps?

[hamishspence]

I'm wondering if Nero will be connected in some way to the Dark One.

The Dark One appears to possibly offer the Law domain, going by Redcloak being able to cast Hold Monster (in SoD) But otherwise, we haven't seen much Law in the Dark One.

I wonder if, like a reverse Maglubiyet (D&D goblin deity: NE, offers Chaos domain) he will be NE offering Law domain.

And also, having Nero allied with Redcloak and The Dark One would be an interesting possibility.

[Crossfiyah]

I still don't understand their names.

[Tingel]

in mythology- daemons were guardian spirits. Phillip Pullman went with this version. I think they were portrayed as evil much later, then the name changed- to demons- and they became associated with fallen angels.

That is incorrect. Demon is just the English word for daemon, so outside of D&D they're the same thing. Thus the name change you mention never occured.

A demon in ancient Greece was a being between the realm of the gods and the realm of mortals, an unkown divinity of intermediate power, and they could be either good (eudemons) or evil (cacodemons). Later the terminology changed and eudemons came to be called angels and cacodemons became simply demons, or "fallen angels".

Philip Pullman's version of dæmons does not reflect their depiction in ancient mythology at all, with the possible exception of going back to the "morally neutral" base meaning of the term. He just borrowed the term, hoping to provoke the Christians he tried to attack with his books, since they associate the term demon with Evil.

[Morgan Wick]

I didn't catch the "IFCC = Sabine's bosses" bit. That could lead to some interesting business.

So I guess it'll be #633 when we get the Four Words...

That is incorrect. Demon is just the English word for daemon, so outside of D&D they're the same thing. Thus the name change you mention never occured.

Wikipedia uses "daemon" to distinguish Greek demons from Christian demons, using "daemon" for the former.

[Moebius]

So V was preapproved by Sabine's superiors... Fascinating!

Aaand let's not forget, it was Sabine who originally sicced the OotS on the black dragon... which led to V's current predicament.
Based on Sabine's dialogue in that strip, I don't think the IFCC planned this from back then, though. However, that tieback could become significant later....

[silvadel]

Interesting to see yet another side as shown by the roaches who said there were about 9 sides or more.

Lots more are interested in the snarl than the oots and xykon.

[chionophile]

I still don't understand their names.

The first two letters in each name indicate their alignment. Nero = N.E.ro, where N.E. stands for Neutral Evil. Same for the other two - Cedrik = Chaotic Evil, Lee = Lawful Evil.

Also, the purple one is my favorite.

[Trazoi]

I'd love to be able to speak in footnotes.