Erfworld 144 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 131

[ReccaSquirrel]

Damnit, I wanna see Ansom kick some ass here. Whatever happened to competent enemies? It's no fun to watch the villain (or in this case, the hero) turn into someone who almost literally hands his enemy his most prized possession. Doesn't he have goons for that purpose?

As much of a bighead as Ansom is, it breaks the versimilitude a bit, for him to be duped by Parson time and time again and still make such critical assumption errors.

While Ansom is extremely competent, however, it is perfectly within his personality to believe so strongly that he has earned victory, that he would step forward like this. It also helps that the Foolamancer is elsewhere right now. Ansom had no reasons to suspect their was a Foolamancy cast on someone who was about to surrender when, from his position, they have clearly lost.

[LeGrenade]

Go Bogroll!!
That was awesome.

---

I wonder what would happen if parson has Wanda uncroak Ansom...

[Graymayre]

Do we have proof that bogroll can even be killed? With regeneration, depending on how it is rolled, he could potentially be immune to death by damage.

[Aquillion]

Ah, no. Honor - a glorified word for "trustworthiness" - is a large part of what makes society sustainable.

Today's page aside, do you think Parson would agree with that statement? I don't. He seems pretty cynical. I think he probably believes something a bit more like this:

Society is sustainable because people are lazy. Our social structures and basic instincts make it so it's easier to keep muddling through your life in the same way you've been doing it all along. Changing the way you live is hard, so most people don't do it more than a handful of times; they go to their job at Kinkos, they settle down and have a family, they follow the well-worn paths that keep everything from collapsing into Mad Max-style apocalypse. It wasn't some vast heroic drive towards honor and reason that kept Parson working at Kinkos, it was basic human laziness; and when you multiply that by a few million, you've got yourself a working society (for a certain definition of 'working'.) People are dishonorable and untrustworthy all the time, but in the larger scope of their lives, they stick to paths that work because it's too much of an effort to do anything else.

It's not like Parson has really changed; he's still essentially just solving whatever problem is put in front of him. Ansom's honor and reliability -- or Parson's drive to win -- are not heroic traits. It's laziness, plain and simple, a gross intellectual laziness that keeps Ansom from ever really questioning his role, or ensures that Parson is going to keep treating Erfworld like a game, just because that's what he knows.

Despite how cynical it sounds, it's not necessarily a bad thing. A society without that laziness would tear itself apart. But the point is, usually people don't sit down and goes over the rules in their head and says "I will be trustworthy!" Or "I will be honorable!" They just keep doing what they've always been doing -- doing what they've always done, lying when they've always lied -- because their habits are too much of a bother to change.

I mean, obviously you're not going to agree with that way of thinking; I don't mean to start an argument about it. But I think that that's Parson's way of thinking; it's the logical projection of his own life onto the rest of the world. The way he acts has to be understood in that context.

[DoomedPaladin]

Yay! For tasty Fanservice in panel 12!

Ansom got RickRolled Bogrolled. LOL

[Kabouter Plop]

If anything Parson has pulled every trick in the book to try and win only to have Ansom find some way of getting out. I hope this isn't just another setup to show how plotclad Ansom really is. And I'm afraid that plotwise it wouldn't make much sense to see Ansom die at this point.

1) The flying carpet swoops down, Ansom grabs hold and Bogroll ends up crushing some troops below.
2) The Archons snap their fingers and save Ansom
3) Ansom does crash, but survives and gets to kill Bogroll.

I guess the next comic will be another exercise in frustration.

[Axl_Rose]

Damnit, I wanna see Ansom kick some ass here. Whatever happened to competent enemies? It's no fun to watch the villain (or in this case, the hero) turn into someone who almost literally hands his enemy his most prized possession. Doesn't he have goons for that purpose?

As much of a bighead as Ansom is, it breaks the versimilitude a bit, for him to be duped by Parson time and time again and still make such critical assumption errors.

While Ansom is extremely competent, however, it is perfectly within his personality to believe so strongly that he has earned victory, that he would step forward like this. It also helps that the Foolamancer is elsewhere right now. Ansom had no reasons to suspect their was a Foolamancy cast on someone who was about to surrender when, from his position, they have clearly lost.

That's funny because this is like the tenth time that "they have clearly lost" so no, I can't agree that this is the author painting a competent enemy.

Also, you shouldn't have added in the "however" if you started the sentence with "while."

[jmsl]

I don't know. I enjoyed the page, but a little part of my brain is still wondering:

:why Charlie allowed this to happen (tons of potential reasons, but since we never get inside his head, we're left grasping at invisible straws)

:why the archons don't swoop to catch Ansom. That is something they could legitimately do without using Yet Another Archon Power (TM). If they won't even do that much without orders, they must be amazingly annoying to work with. Jillian didn't appear to have to micromanage them attacking the dwagons.

:why Ansom is suddenly so much more of a prig. Sure he's a bit uptight here and there, but he's had one communication with Parson. Except for overreacting during that contact, I don't recall seeing him that fanatical about Royalty. It makes his comeuppance more enjoyable of course, especially for those predisposed to dislike him.

:why Ansom, who has been hit with one unusual attack after another, isn't a LOT more cautious approaching a large armed opponent.

I hate to see him go squish, I'd groan if Jillian swooped in to save him, I wouldn't be surprised if the Archons pulled a last second save, or if he survives much as Wanda did. He's lacking his protective helmet this time, but maybe he can land on Bogroll. On the other hand, it certainly would fit if he died or was captured and caused the allied forces to retreat.

[Onmi]

That's funny because this is like the tenth time that "they have clearly lost" so no, I can't agree that this is the author painting a competent enemy.

Also, you shouldn't have added in the "however" if you started the sentence with "while."

But see, he was never portrayed as the competent one, that was Vinnie, he never made huge mistakes until Vinnie left. now he doesn't HAVE a competent adviser, his emotions are clouding his judgment, he THINKS he knows Parson, but he also thinks HIS will is the Titans.

[SteveMB]

Yeah, it was indicated pretty early on, but how far the Regeneration special ability goes is unclear.

I doubt it reverses outright croaking, though.

My guess is that it would save him in a "not croaked yet, but will croak if not healed this turn" situation (like Wanda after the sortie got shot down).

Charlie saw it coming. Why did he let it happen?

Several possibilities:

1. He was taking a hardnosed "Ansom isn't paying for intel" view. If so, I think he was influenced by the following factors:

2. He figured that victory was inevitable (he himself already had the forces to take Parson's garrison*), so letting the RCC lose more units wouldn't change the outcome and might compel them to hire more mercenaries until they can pop enough units to cover their losses.

3. In a best-case scenario, letting the RCC bear a heavy butcher's bill might let Charlie grab and hold more spoils, up to and including Gobwin Knob itself. Yes, he was willing to let the city go if he got Parson and his artifact, but if he saw an opportunity get it all, he would.

[valce]

Charlie saw it coming. Why did he let it happen?

If the RCC wins, Charlie has everything he wants. (Parson and the device.) But now Parson has a chance to win, and in that case Charlie gets paid but doesn't get his ultimate warlord or artifact.

I'm nonplussed. Bad strategy on Charlie's part.

I'd say it's a combination of wanting to see what happens next and knowing that his archons can, on their turn, probably wipe out what remains of GK's rather depleted forces if Ansom wins.

Also, 'wanting to see what happens next' may be a potentially exploitable character flaw in Charlie, in the future.

[valce]

Today's page aside, do you think Parson would agree with that statement? I don't. He seems pretty cynical. I think he probably believes something a bit more like this:

Society is sustainable because people are lazy. Our social structures and basic instincts make it so it's easier to keep muddling through your life in the same way you've been doing it all along. Changing the way you live is hard, so most people don't do it more than a handful of times; they go to their job at Kinkos, they settle down and have a family, they follow the well-worn paths that keep everything from collapsing into Mad Max-style apocalypse. It wasn't some vast heroic drive towards honor and reason that kept Parson working at Kinkos, it was basic human laziness; and when you multiply that by a few million, you've got yourself a working society (for a certain definition of 'working'.) People are dishonorable and untrustworthy all the time, but in the larger scope of their lives, they stick to paths that work because it's too much of an effort to do anything else.

It's not like Parson has really changed; he's still essentially just solving whatever problem is put in front of him. Ansom's honor and reliability -- or Parson's drive to win -- are not heroic traits. It's laziness, plain and simple, a gross intellectual laziness that keeps Ansom from ever really questioning his roll, or ensures that Parson is going to keep treating Erfworld like a game, just because that's what he knows.

Despite how cynical it sounds, it's not necessarily a bad thing. A society without that laziness would tear itself apart. But the point is, usually people don't sit down and goes over the rules in their head and says "I will be trustworthy!" Or "I will be honorable!" They just keep doing what they've always been doing -- doing what they've always done, lying when they've always lied -- because their habits are too much of a bother to change.

I mean, obviously you're not going to agree with that way of thinking; I don't mean to start an argument about it. But I think that that's Parson's way of thinking; it's the logical projection of his own life onto the rest of the world. The way he acts has to be understood in that context.

Well said sir :)

[Zeku]

I hope this honor argument doesn't turn into another "Did Miko turn evil?" holy war.

Honor is real, it's important, and if you ignore it, you lose all of the advantages of that social group. But honor only applies when you intend for the enemy to survive. I'm not clear on whether that's true, here.

Parson may be a moral descendant of the whole 'royalty is bad mmkay' belief system which began around the time of the French Revolution, and thus he's totally ok with murdering everyone in authority, and destroying their belief system, and the civilization built upon it.

Fictional story, fictional characters. Fun stuff.

[shamelessmerc]

Ah, no. Honor - a glorified word for "trustworthiness" - is a large part of what makes society sustainable.
Stick-up-the-bumness us completely optional, and not recommended.

Ah... a bold statment sir! :-)

In invitation to semantic and philosophical debate... this is where I live. <g>

Behavioural psychology is gradualy building up the picture that complience to the rules of society is based on fear of retribution. Most honour codes are based on religious moral systems that are based on the concept of ultimate judgment beyond the physical. This is borne out by studies that show that most employees will steal from employers to one degree or another with the determining factor being opertunity.

When the ability to punish is added to group trust excercises, EVERYBODY gets a lot better behaved.

Parson has literally nothing to lose. Sure he won't have 'negotiate' as an option in the future, but he will be around to deal with that issue when it comes.

What he did was pretty underhand (I re-read what he said to Charlie, and that Charlie was smart enough to tumble that it was a lie does not excuse Parson violating a truce that he called) and in the future he will pay for it in increased difficulty in having his word accepted, but unless he goes to the hell for liars and oathbreakers, that will be his only problem.

[Ovaltine Patrol]

While it's clear that Charlie is perfectly willing to let Ansom stumble into pitfalls he hasn't paid them to circumvent, I don't think he'd have the Archons hang him out to dry. He's probably getting paid by the turn, he has every reason to drag this out. If Ansom croaks now, it's possible that the Coalition may not be able to retain his services, Stanley the Tool certainly wouldn't be happy if Hamster does, and he might face an entirely different coalition if he tries to take Gobwin Knob for himself.

So Ansom gets a bloody nose, but Charlie isn't planning on letting the gravy train stop. Of course, since he didn't come to an arrangement with Transylvito, he may not yet know that the Tool is heading back their way...

[LordVader]

Treachery during a peace conference? Parson may be a protaganist, but he's no hero.

That one scene, by itself, has made me decide not to buy the graphic novel when it comes out. Although I will wait to see if the situation changes.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Heroes don't always have to be in black-and-white, shades of grey like this make for far more interesting characters, in my opinion.

Plus, things like this happen all the time in the kind of warfare Parson is used to knowing, I imagine.

[noncaloric]

By the By, if the earlier comic is true, than Bogroll can probably survive this, remember the other guards used to give him an umbrella with a target and he got giant boulders dropped on him.

he must be a frigging tank.

I didn't think that was a boulder. I thought it was a cwap dwagon.

[The Minx]

Really, i never understood why people are so damn hard on Jacklyn...

My guess: it is because she made things harder for Parson. That is all there is to it.

I get the impression that for many readers, anyone who makes things harder for the protagonist and/or refuses to bend over backwards for them is to be hated. We see it in OOTS reaction threads too: its the exact same pattern. Extra props if the person in question has redeeming qualities, then they are being arrogant or something. And alone among all the Alliance, Jaclyn seemed to be a genuinely caring individual.

Tell you what, if Jaclyn had been in the service of GK, and had caused as much trouble for Ansom while retaining the same personality; and if she had subsequently been croaked by an Alliance caster, you may rest assured that many of those who now are her haters would instead have been lamenting her loss, singing her praises and hating the enemy caster who killed her.


EDIT: and as to the claims that she might still be alive if she were to have obeyed Charlies rules more? Not so. If she had not warned Jillian about the suggestion spell that was on her, she might well have been croaked along with Ansom on the following turn after the dwagons healed. If not, then the Alliance would certainly have suffered a massive blow, and she would still be expected to fight for them, now at a disadvantage. As for her warning to Jillian when Wanda blasted the air force: Wanda blasted all units in the immediate vicinity, leaving only Jillian. Had Jaclyn remained with the rest of the unit, she would simply have died with them.

[Zolem]

YEp, that is society, a series of rules stated and unstated that are ingrained into a person from birth that collors their whole world view. Children in America aren't taught to be honorable and play fair. Parents may say that, but kids know and see better than that lie. Society runs on power, rule bending, and outright lies. Basicly the winner is in charge and gets to say what's right and wrong.

[Onmi]

While it's clear that Charlie is perfectly willing to let Ansom stumble into pitfalls he hasn't paid them to circumvent, I don't think he'd have the Archons hang him out to dry. He's probably getting paid by the turn, he has every reason to drag this out. If Ansom croaks now, it's possible that the Coalition may not be able to retain his services, Stanley the Tool certainly wouldn't be happy if Hamster does, and he might face an entirely different coalition if he tries to take Gobwin Knob for himself.

So Ansom gets a bloody nose, but Charlie isn't planning on letting the gravy train stop. Of course, since he didn't come to an arrangement with Transylvito, he may not yet know that the Tool is heading back their way...

I already mentioned the chance that he quoted the Coalition all it's worth, which is why Ansom was so desperate to win in a single turn, loses Archon support after the next turn.

also if he aids Ansom, he loses the chance to get the Pliers, this is why, he played both Parson and Ansom like fools, he gave Ansom open support while leaving a back door for Parson to take.

This way he ISN'T breaking contract, pliers go to Parson, coffers of the Coalition get drained, causing them to disband seeing there leader down, swoop in for the easy kill on Ansom and take Gobwin Knob.

however he only brought enough Archons to take Parson's force when he asked for that sum, next turn the dragon flight should return, catching Charlie in a flank.

with two Arkentools, a courtyard full of uncroaked, Dwagons, they should be able to force Charlie to retreat.

That way they get time to repair, maybe capture more cities, BOOM battle to retake lost ground.

[Aquillion]

One of the things that I think is interesting about this page (and the argument here) is that it underlines the philosophical difference between Parson and Ansom. Ansom believes that society is based on firm immutable rules which must be followed, and that going against them is at best misguided or dangerous, and at worst outright evil. This page will probably convince him that Parson is completely evil beyond redemption.

Parson... clearly doesn't think that way, at least. (It's worth pointing out that Parson and Charlie seem to think alike in this respect -- that'd be part of the reason why Charlie immediately realized that Parson would set up an ambush here, while Ansom didn't even consider it. It's what Charlie would have done in the same situation, likely.)

[docstrange]

Love Bogroll's battlecry. Too bad his doom has been foreshadowed... the only way he lives, I think, is if somehow he attunes to the pliers.

[docstrange]

YEp, that is society, a series of rules stated and unstated that are ingrained into a person from birth that collors their whole world view. Children in America aren't taught to be honorable and play fair. Parents may say that, but kids know and see better than that lie. Society runs on power, rule bending, and outright lies. Basicly the winner is in charge and gets to say what's right and wrong.

Eh. I'm sure Im not the only American here who was taught to be honorable and play fair. I was also taught that not everyone does, and that often it is those people who win. I further learned that honor is more important than winning.

Oh, and I was also taught not to make sweeping generalizations.

[SteveMB]

And who cast that veil ? Was it cast from scroll? Did Maggy cast it? I'm really not fond of this 'pulling out the spell we need right now from nowhere'.. Also, one thing that annoys me to no end is, where are the coalitions casters ? I mean if GK can have.. what 5 of them (including Misty...) How come a multinational coalition doesn't have a single one..

It was specifically established that Foolamancy is one of the types of magic found in Wanda's scroll stash.

As for the coalition's casters, they probably didn't bring them along because there's no point in risking rare and valuable units. This was supposed to be easy -- roll in, stomp Stanley like a bug, divvy up the spoils, go home. Why take a chance of losing a caster to an enemy lucky shot? (They do have healers, though it's unclear whether they're "casters" per se or whether healing is a natural ability of those elf types.)

Oh come on. This is just another one of those "One mans terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" moments. Personally I think Parson did the right thing. He fights as if he was in the "real" world. Honor only gets you killed.

That raises the question of whether Parson is introducing real changes to the art of war as it is practiced in Erfworld. It may be that one reason Ansom fell for the ruse is that this sort of treachery is truly unprecedented.

If so, and all sides had formerly abided by "honorable" restrictions that will break down as a result of Parson's innovations, then the effect could be to make Erfworld a darker place.

[stsasser]

What does an uncroaked Ansom bring to GK's side, besides Wanda's vicious pleasure?

[Zeku]

What does an uncroaked Ansom bring to GK's side, besides Wanda's vicious pleasure?

Wrath of the Barbarian Queen.

Good name for Chapter/Year 2?

[Hatu]

Nope. Because Charlie sees another angle here, the same bait Parson dangled in front of him before. If Ansom wins, then Charlie gets Parson and the Mathamancy Artifact. If Parson wins, Charlie gets Parson, the Mathamancy Artifact AND the Arkenpliers.

Charlie has enough Archons on the scene to take the garrison all by himself. Parson and Charlie already discussed this. Parson and Charley's original "agreement" was that if Charlie stood by and didn't interfere, then after Parson beat Ansom, GK would be even weaker from having to fight the RCC, so Charlie would be still be able to claim the garrison even after Parson "won".

If Charlie throws down with Ansom, then he loses the opportunity to get the Arkenpliers, and as Parson noted, he bit pretty hard on that bait the first time. Ansom's failing is Pride. If Charlie has a failing, it's GREED.

The problem is that if Charlie lets Ansom die, he must then take GK on his own. That means larger losses for his own Archons, whereas if Ansom just wins Charlie's Archons get off with almost no damage. And if Parson captures the Arkenpliers, then Charlie must overcome their artifact bonus in addition to all the newly uncroaked troops Parson would have at his command. Charlie is clearly greedy, but he's also smart. Past a certain point, shouldn't he want to actually win something, rather than just keep doubling down and going for more?

Basically, I'm tired of a major player in the story having motivations so nebulous that any action he takes or fails to take can be made to fit. Charlie's not a character, he's just a plot device. When it's convenient for him to gamble, he gambles. When it's convenient for him to take the sure thing, he's all about eliminating negative outcomes. He's nearly omnipotent, yet he'll always do exactly what the plot calls for. And we can never say he's acting out of character, cause Charlie's wacky and unknowable! :-(

As far as Ansom goes, this was a pathetically stupid move. Veil or no veil, why why would he let an unsearched, unrestrained enemy of Parson's size get within arms reach of him? Yes, Ansom has a stick up his posterior and a chip on his shoulder, but he's also downright contemptuous of Stanley the Worm's character. He cannot possibly be surprised that Stanley's low-born warlord would pull low stunt like faking his surrender. Especially not when it was Parson who set the time and place for the meeting. Even worse, since Bogroll attacked him, Ansom must have entered the enemy controlled Tower sub-zone without any friendly troops to support him. Zapp Brannigan isn't that stupid. This is just sloppy work.

On the plus side, the artwork continues to be great, and it was fun to see Bogroll get his moment of glory.

-H

[Aquillion]

That raises the question of whether Parson is introducing real changes to the art of war as it is practiced in Erfworld. It may be that one reason Ansom fell for the ruse is that this sort of treachery is truly unprecedented.

I doubt it. Charlie wouldn't have suspected it if it were so unheard of.

As far as Ansom goes, this was a pathetically stupid move. Veil or no veil, why why would he let an unsearched, unrestrained enemy of Parson's size get within arms reach of him? Yes, Ansom has a stick up his posterior and a chip on his shoulder, but he's also downright contemptuous of Stanley the Worm's character. He cannot possibly be surprised that Stanley's low-born warlord would pull low stunt like faking his surrender. Especially not when it was Parson who set the time and place for the meeting. Even worse, since Bogroll attacked him, Ansom must have entered the enemy controlled Tower sub-zone without any friendly troops to support him. Zapp Brannigan isn't that stupid. This is just sloppy work.

Ansom's weakness is that he has trouble seeing things outside of his view of the world (look at how he responded to Jillian's revelation of her past, say.) To him, it was inevitable that Parson would surrender to him, so he accepted it a face value.

[Nazrel]

The Archons couldn't take part in the attack.They're a hex away. So it's unlikely they could do anything to save ansom at this point.

[SteveMB]

Do we have proof that bogroll can even be killed? With regeneration, depending on how it is rolled, he could potentially be immune to death by damage.

We know that twolls can be croaked. Regeneration presumably makes it more difficult, though.

The problem is that if Charlie lets Ansom die, he must then take GK on his own. That means larger losses for his own Archons, whereas if Ansom just wins Charlie's Archons get off with almost no damage. And if Parson captures the Arkenpliers, then Charlie must overcome their artifact bonus in addition to all the newly uncroaked troops Parson would have at his command.

We already know that Charlie is confident of being able to take Parson's garrison even if Parson has the Arkenpliers -- that is the exact scenario Parson offered him earlier to convince him to stand back and wait. As for the uncroaked troops, they're simply not a factor for Charlie. Unlike Ansom, he doesn't have to win now to hold his allies together or minimize costs -- he can just wait a few turns until the mass-uncroaked units expire.

I doubt it. Charlie wouldn't have suspected it if it were so unheard of.

True.