Wanda will never get the pliars

[surtt]

Wanda's statement indicates only that the Tool began fighting to obtain the Arkentools. Now, if there was nothing else involved, he would be fighting Jetstone, Charlescomm, and one other unnamed nation for the fourth tool. That's not what happened.

It's not???
What did happen?

He attacked Jetstone, Jetstone got a coalition together and kicked his but.
He never won a battle.
He never had a chance to attack Charlescomm, and the one other unnamed nation.

You are right in that something happened in Faq that will fill in a lot of plot holes. But there are a lot of theories that "fit" the facts without making unwarranted assumptions.

[crzybggr]

First of all, I have to clear something up.

I have no theories. I just don't believe things unless I have enough evidence to think it's reasonable. My only reason for thinking Wanda won't get the pliers is because I don't have enough evidence to believe it.

Moving on:

There's one. There may be no leadership in the area to make the order. That was part of my reasoning. We're down to only 2 major commanders from the feast table the night before. Orange Girl is at Ansom, but can she order troops of another nation if she is not acknowledged as the RCC Commander? Even if she is, we never saw Ansom giving orders to non-Jetstone units, only non-Jetstone Commanders. There's no evidence Orange Girl can order Sofa King units to retreat.

When the leader's die, someone is going to end up taking charge. The next person in the chain of command is going to become the leader, and is going to be able to issue orders. Even if all of the higher-ups in an army were killed, some sergeant or other lower rank could just as easily take charge. An entire army is not going to sit idly by just because their CO got killed. Someone in the ranks is going to decide to take charge.

The Coalition as a whole is going to start to fall apart anyway now. With Ansom gone, there's nothing holding it together. Some factions will leave, others will stay. But there has to be no chief commander to make decisions for the entire army in order for one faction to retreat.

So why does he work with Charles. Charles and Stanley are identical in everything except ambition -- both rule sides, both have an attuned Arkentool. both are not royalty. If your theory was true, then Ansom would never consider working with Charlie.

And I don't agree that Ansom would loathe anyone for it. He would consider them upstarts and take them down, but dispassionately, and as a chore. He wouldn't hate someone for it. Hate is, after all, a weakness. Ansom feels righteous anger, not hatred, or that is what he has to tell himself in the morning to make sure he remains superior.

Charlie is less a ruler and more a CEO of a business. He controls a powerful mercenary force of Archons. He doesn't rule a kingdom. He is completely different from Stanley in that respect. Also, there is a strong case that Stanley came to power through regicide (79/4). This alone would be enough to make Ansom despise Stanley.

Alternate explanations again. It is also consistent with an Ansom that would rather forget how he got the Pliers in the first place.

It isn't an alternate explanation. It fits far better than yours. Ansom is not trying to forget how he got the Pliers. His face (122/9) definitely does not have an expression of guilt. Guilty people don't look directly at the person they feel guilty about. They turn away from them or unconsciously put something between them. Ansom is looking straight at Wanda. That expression is one of disgust or fear. Again, crazy people creep people out. Just pretend for a moment that Ansom is not guilty at all at that moment. If you were him, would you want to touch Wanda with the 'pliers? I doubt it.

Again, alternate explanations for individual mysteries are not interesting to me. I can give you many possible explanations. Vaarsuvius teleported in and blew it up among them. The point for each mystery is that they can all be explained by one event.

But your theory doesn't explain all of them. You still haven't adequately explained how the 'pliers would have ended up in FAQ in the first place. If they were, how did Ansom know about them? Stanley might have, as he might have had the Thinkamancer and Lookamancer at the time. But FAQ was a town in the middle of the mountains. Jetstone had no such units, or they would be using them currently. How would Ansom have known how to go to FAQ?

But no knowledge of Faq. If there were no Arkentools in Faq, why would he attack it? Others feel that the War started when Stanley started hunting Arkentools. If Stanley was in Faq, then it is reasonable to say that an Arkentool was in Faq. So that puts either the pliers or dish in Faq. Dish makes no sense at all, and explains nothing. Pliers explains everything.

See above. Ansom would have had no knowledge of FAQ either, and would have been less likely to know about it as he has apparently never had anywhere near the kind of Caster setup GK had. Stanley might not have even wanted an Arkentool at FAQ. He could have wanted the casters there. Stanley could have found FAQ with the Lookamancer, seen the Foolamancer and Wanda, and decided to capture them. An alternate explanation that works when your theory doesn't.

How did Ansom get them? How did Stanley get teh hammer? Charlie the dish? Some information is not important enough to spend cels on.

Yes it is. If there is no feasible way for Wanda to get the pliers in the time since Jillian went on her last mercenary mission, how could they possibly have ended up in FAQ?

I really think you have Faq confused with someplace else. King Banhammer of Faq was no dictator. 82. The soldiers are like clerks. The Warlords treated like crap. He wanted a philosopher-prince for an heir, not a sword-wielding berserker. If a real army attacked, he had nothing to defend with. He would have had to call for aid. And who near Faq had firepower capable of flying through the mountains that Faq needed to help defend the nation?

Alright, yes. I wasn't clear on that, sorry. I was pressed for time on my last post, and I didn't have time to research this correctly.

Banhammer wasn't a warlord, fine. But he's still a dictator. Anyone who thinks their society is Utopian, and works to keep it that way, is a dictator. Socialism is, basically, "From every man according to his ability, to every man according to his needs." It is the perfect model of a Utopian society. This works great in theory, but in practice it doesn't work at all. The Soviet Union was definitely not Utopian, and was headed by dictators at several times.

Also, if Banhammer had called for aid from Stanley, why did Jillian get a frantic message about "a large overflight of Dwagons" and then become a barbarian the next turn (83/1)? Why did the message include nothing about getting attacked by Jetstone forces, and then about the Dwagons coming to save the day? If the message were about the Dwagons coming to save the kingdom, why would it be frantic?

Opposite of what? Jillian's beliefs? Those are based on a bare minimum of circumstantial evidence, so hardly factual evidence. Wanda's failure to inform her? Jillian made a great spy in RCC: telling her the truth would only gain Stanley a warlord that could never work with his ego and incompetence. Jack has been linked or crazy the entire story, so wouldn't tell us anything about Faq. No one else has ever mentioned the events in Faq, so there's nothing else to be the opposite of. Of course, I might be overlooking something. Care to present a source of whatever I'm the opposite of?

If anything actually contradicted me, well, I'd love to see it: my theory would be wrong and I'd need to rethink. Page and frame, please. Not asking you to do anything that I haven't.

83/1 does. Once again, why would the message have been frantic about a large overflight of Dwagons, and why would it have included nothing about Jetstone troops attacking the town? It would have had to have been a fairly massive Jetstone army in order to defeat that many Dwagons.
And that's not even considering the logistics involved in moving a massive, most likely ground-based army across mountainous terrain. I say ground-based because most units are not Jillian. She, while mounted on a Gwiffon, can kill a Dwagon. But I doubt a normal soldier could do so. You would need an extremely large force of Gwiffons and soldiers in order to take out the Dwagons and destory FAQ.
So really, there was no viable way for a Jetstone army large enough to defeat a flight of Dwagons in one turn to reach FAQ anyway, and if by some miracle of logistics it did, why would the message not have mentioned them?

So, why did Stanley become involved with Faq? It wasn't for Arkentools: that obsession came later. It wasn't to conquer: the place was annihilated, and dwagons don't conquer in the first place -- they destroy. It wasn't to annihilate, or Wanda and Jack wouldn't have worked for him unspelled afterwards. So why did Stanley go to a place that issolated itself from everyone, didn't bother anyone, and was not allied with his enemies who were equally unaware of its existence?

You just said that he didn't go to FAQ because the the Tools. The only motivation I can find that works is the casters. Stanley, if he was in possession of the Thinkamancer and Lookamancer at the time - which is quite reasonable - would have been able to see Jack and Wanda at FAQ. He realized that they would be very powerful, and decided to capture them.
We have also seen that Jillian was dissatisfied with Banhammer's government. We can therefore assume that others would have been dissatisfied. It is quite possible that Wanda and Jack could have gone over to Stanley willingly, as they wanted a change from Banhammer.

[surtt]

There isn't any real evidence Stanly had anything to do with Faq

Jillian's whole proof was:
1. dwagons were spotted over the city.
2. The casters ended up at Gobwin Knob.

Not very conclusive.

For instance;
Jake could have cast a dwagon illusion to try to scare off the attackers and they ended up at Gobwin Knob after they were defeated and fled.

[Kreistor]

It's not???
What did happen?

He attacked Jetstone, Jetstone got a coalition together and kicked his but.
He never won a battle.
He never had a chance to attack Charlescomm, and the one other unnamed nation.

You are right in that something happened in Faq that will fill in a lot of plot holes. But there are a lot of theories that "fit" the facts without making unwarranted assumptions.

Oh, that's possible. Just like with any of the other theories that explain one part, it explains the beginning of the war adequately. But why the loathing? War is a constant on this world. Jillian has no shortage of merc jobs. Why would Ansom go straight to pure loathing for doing what any leader of any side does?

See, approaching one small issue will always turn up alternatives, but it leaves the other mysteries unexplained. Such as, why does Stanley not loath Ansom? Or, how's this... since Stanley completely failed to obtain the Arkenpliers when attacking Jetstone, where does his conviction that Ansom is bringing him the PLiers come from? If Stanley was the Titans' chosen one, then he wouldn't have lost the first battle, would he? And if he did, he would have lost and then called his conviction into question. Superficially, your explanation works, but it really only draws out more questions.

I have no theories. I just don't believe things unless I have enough evidence to think it's reasonable. My only reason for thinking Wanda won't get the pliers is because I don't have enough evidence to believe it.

Does this mean that I'm not allowed to have theories and speculate? No. You go ahead and be the way you want to be. I'll be the way I want to. And we'll all be happy being ourselves without regret.

Oh, but you want to continue the debate. Seems inconsistent with your world view...

When the leader's die, someone is going to end up taking charge. The next person in the chain of command is going to become the leader, and is going to be able to issue orders.

I call that into question. As stated before: we don't know for certain that a Sofa King Warlord can give orders to Jetstone troops. There's no evidence of it so far. Further, we do know that Warlords only can issue commands that can prevent certain rules from forcing events. A unit in contact with an un-allied unit auto-attacks... and it doesn't matter if the attack is suicidal.

Even if all of the higher-ups in an army were killed, some sergeant or other lower rank could just as easily take charge. An entire army is not going to sit idly by just because their CO got killed. Someone in the ranks is going to decide to take charge.

This is not our world. Natural Thinkamancy trumps smart choices. Rules govern choices, or lack thereof. Those sergeants have their orders, and they will obey them, unless one of the caveats of Obedience enables another choice. There is no free will to work with, here. Knowing that you can't win doesn't permit disobedience.

Charlie is less a ruler and more a CEO of a business. He controls a powerful mercenary force of Archons. He doesn't rule a kingdom.

Hunh? Where do you get the idea Charlie isn't a side? He has his own turn order, which fell before GK, until he allied with RCC. He can conquer cities (as Parson discusses with him). The troops we've seen so far are Archons, which though different from most troops (in that they are casters), are readily explained as being allowed by the Arkendish, in the same way Stanley can command dwagons thanks to the Arkenhammer.

It isn't an alternate explanation. It fits far better than yours. Ansom is not trying to forget how he got the Pliers. His face (122/9) definitely does not have an expression of guilt. Guilty people don't look directly at the person they feel guilty about. They turn away from them or unconsciously put something between them. Ansom is looking straight at Wanda. That expression is one of disgust or fear. Again, crazy people creep people out. Just pretend for a moment that Ansom is not guilty at all at that moment. If you were him, would you want to touch Wanda with the 'pliers? I doubt it.

Moments ago he wanted to beat her over the scull. He stops and grimaces long before she suggests touching the Pliers to her. Let's get the timing right here.

Ansom, before Wanda says, "Less than you cost me", is full of righteous anger at the corruption Wanda has dealt to his troops, his friends, his people. You think a little creepiness or insanity is going to change his mind about her being a corrupt perversion of nature that needs to be eliminated? You've never felt righteous anger, then. Creepiness only fuels more proof of the need for this perversion to die! You're trying to give it the opposite effect, as if there was logic behind that emotion. When you are faced with evil, vileness, that evil being scary fuels more anger, and more conviction that you are on the right path.

Only evidence that you are the creature that you are angry at can turn you. Sympathy and empathy are required to turn righteous anger.

But your theory doesn't explain all of them. You still haven't adequately explained how the 'pliers would have ended up in FAQ in the first place.

Why would I need to? It does not matter, and is beyond the scope of this story. My theory doesn't explain why bees drink honey, either: does that mean it is false? It only needs to explain those mysteries directly involved. The pliers getting to Faq requries knowledge of where the pliers were before Faq, and that's not known.

(Funny, I actually can give a darn good reason for them to be there. Can you? Give it a try before reading.)

Spoiler

Show

Where better to hide a powerful artefact than in a bubble kingdom no one knows about?

And with that, I am done with that particular flight of fancy. How the pliers got to Faq is unimportant. They could get anywhere from anywhere, so there's no reason to waste time trying to think up what doesn't need explaining.

Yes it is. If there is no feasible way for Wanda to get the pliers in the time since Jillian went on her last mercenary mission, how could they possibly have ended up in FAQ?

Okay, prove that they couldn't get to Faq in that time frame. The time frame is... hold it, we don't know the time frame. Jillian was away from Faq for an unknown period of time. So, we can't prove it was too short or more than long enough.

Also, if Banhammer had called for aid from Stanley, why did Jillian get a frantic message about "a large overflight of Dwagons" and then become a barbarian the next turn (83/1)?

Because the person sending the message was unaware that Banhammer allied with Stnaley? Because the person was trying to send a message while someone tried to kill him? Remember, tehre are two pieces of evidence against Stanley destroying Faq: Wanda and Jack are working for him, willingly. For Jillian, it would take a spell to force Wanda to work for Stanley, but that's not what is happening. Jillian is the least informed of all the participants in this event, which at the bare minimum include Wanda, Jack, and Stanley. Her evidence is clearly incomplete, and she only one day ago received the first indication that something more happened in Faq. She has had no time to try to figure out that she may have based her conclusions on insufficient evidence. You can lend all the weight you want on that snippet of a message, but I think it's clear that something far more complex went on in Faq.

Once again, why would the message have been frantic about a large overflight of Dwagons, and why would it have included nothing about Jetstone troops attacking the town?

Jetstone was still over the horizon? Person sending didn't have the full story and wasn't given an official message, so made one up based on their own intelligence? Why didn't the message come from Wanda, for instance? Or Jack, who actually is a Thinkamancer? Wanda did not receive an official message from Faq, just something someone sent out in a rush.

It would have had to have been a fairly massive Jetstone army in order to defeat that many Dwagons.

Why does Jetstone have to win? If Stanley barbecued the entire force (along with Faq), Ansom would be embarrassed and he'd hate Stanley. That's consistent with my theory.

Oh, BTW, Charlescomm Archons under Jetstone employ would solve the entire question. They begin by ferrying Jetstone troops over the roughest part of the pass (not the whole way, just the really bad parts). They then provide magical support which has been shown can kill dwagons. Stanley would not accept losses in the defense of another nation, and so flees when the going gets rough and the enemy shows backbone.

And that's not even considering the logistics involved in moving a massive, most likely ground-based army across mountainous terrain.

Most mountainous terrain isn't that bad. There are specific places where they need help. A cliff here, a crevice there. You only need to ferry the units across that small obstacle.

And lets not forget that Hannibal crossed the Alps with elephants. Some people grossly underestimate what a dedicated infantry can accomplish. especially an infantry with the right kid of Dirtamancer support.

You just said that he didn't go to FAQ because the the Tools. The only motivation I can find that works is the casters.

So, making an ally of a hidden little kingdom with mercenary troops is a terrible idea? You are very uncreative in your attempts to find reasons for doing good things. Remember, Stnaley at this point isn't the creature we know today. He's worked his way up the ranks, grabbed an Arkentool, conquers dwagons, and then organizes a takeover of his nation. This is a driven, cunning individual. He has not yet gained the megalomaniacal outlook, and so is probably playing the game the same as everyone. Making allies, destroying threats, and so on. The normal reasons for helping people are reasonable for pre-obsession Stanley.

We have also seen that Jillian was dissatisfied with Banhammer's government. We can therefore assume that others would have been dissatisfied.

If you like, but I would think the reason that sent Jillian into mercenary service would have been the solution for any other person dissatisfied with Banhammer. In other words, if Wanda and Jack had been dissatisfied, they'd have been with Jillian on merc service.

[surtt]

See, approaching one small issue will always turn up alternatives, but it leaves the other mysteries unexplained. Such as, why does Stanley not loath Ansom?

Is there some requirement that he does? why?
Stanly seems so egotistical he does not care enough about anyone else to hate them.

Or, how's this... since Stanley completely failed to obtain the Arkenpliers when attacking Jetstone, where does his conviction that Ansom is bringing him the PLiers come from? If Stanley was the Titans' chosen one, then he wouldn't have lost the first battle, would he? And if he did, he would have lost and then called his conviction into question. Superficially, your explanation works, but it really only draws out more questions.

Religious fanatics very seldom question their convictions.

1. Stanly is the Titans chosen tool.
2. They would not let him fail.

What other conclusion could he have come to?

[Lizard Lord]

I've said it before.
1) Ansom has not been told Wanda was from Faq by Jillian.
2) Wanda has not been told that Ansom has been told that Wanda was from Faq and in love with Jillian.
3) Jillian was trying to rescue Wanda in 95, so Wanda has not in fact lost Jillian's love!
4) Wanda was already aware of Jillian's interest in Ansom. 38.1
5) We have never seen Wanda actually blame Ansom for any of the spell's failure to anyone. Given that Sizemore predicted the failure, she can't blame anyone but herself.

The hearts of most sentient beings are anything but rational. It could be possible that with the above Wanda either does not see it that way or does not deem it relevant.

[crzybggr]

Kreistor, please please please actually read my posts and respond to what I wrote. Don't put words into my mouth.

Does this mean that I'm not allowed to have theories and speculate? No. You go ahead and be the way you want to be. I'll be the way I want to. And we'll all be happy being ourselves without regret.

Oh, but you want to continue the debate. Seems inconsistent with your world view...

I don't have theories about this at the moment. I don't have enough evidence to back them up. The reasons I want to continue the debate are 1: it's fun and 2: I want to know why you think what you do. If you can convince me of your theory, then I'll believe it. I just need to be convinced. Come up with enough stuff that I think is reasonable and I'll go over to your side. That's not inconsistent with my worldview at all.

I call that into question. As stated before: we don't know for certain that a Sofa King Warlord can give orders to Jetstone troops. There's no evidence of it so far. Further, we do know that Warlords only can issue commands that can prevent certain rules from forcing events. A unit in contact with an un-allied unit auto-attacks... and it doesn't matter if the attack is suicidal.

This is not our world. Natural Thinkamancy trumps smart choices. Rules govern choices, or lack thereof. Those sergeants have their orders, and they will obey them, unless one of the caveats of Obedience enables another choice. There is no free will to work with, here. Knowing that you can't win doesn't permit disobedience.

When did I say that someone would become the new commander of the coalition? I was simply saying that someone from that faction would become the leader of that faction.
If we're bringing Natural Thinkamancy into it, it gets even simpler. The most senior, highest-ranked person left gives the orders for that faction. No bickering about who rises to the occasion. Command will just follow a rank hierarchy or whomever the King/Supreme Leader of the nation wants to be the commander. Therefore, orders can be given.

Hunh? Where do you get the idea Charlie isn't a side? He has his own turn order, which fell before GK, until he allied with RCC. He can conquer cities (as Parson discusses with him). The troops we've seen so far are Archons, which though different from most troops (in that they are casters), are readily explained as being allowed by the Arkendish, in the same way Stanley can command dwagons thanks to the Arkenhammer.

I never, ever, EVER said Charlie didn't have a side. I said he wasn't ruling a nation. He is the ruler of Charlescomm, a very corporate-sounding name. He leases out his extremely powerful Archon mercenaries for very high sums of money. He doesn't ever join a losing side. He sells his alliances to the highest bidder. He is either an extremely ruthless leader of a nation that would be hated by everybody, or he's not ruling a nation. He's ruling a business. Since he makes no claims to being able to lord it over people, his lack of nobility does not upset Ansom.

Moments ago he wanted to beat her over the scull. He stops and grimaces long before she suggests touching the Pliers to her. Let's get the timing right here.

Ansom, before Wanda says, "Less than you cost me", is full of righteous anger at the corruption Wanda has dealt to his troops, his friends, his people. You think a little creepiness or insanity is going to change his mind about her being a corrupt perversion of nature that needs to be eliminated? You've never felt righteous anger, then. Creepiness only fuels more proof of the need for this perversion to die! You're trying to give it the opposite effect, as if there was logic behind that emotion. When you are faced with evil, vileness, that evil being scary fuels more anger, and more conviction that you are on the right path.

Only evidence that you are the creature that you are angry at can turn you. Sympathy and empathy are required to turn righteous anger.

We can't see Ansom's face clearly until after Wanda tells him to "touch me with them." We have no idea what his expression was when Wanda said "Less than you cost me," so we don't know if that was what he was reacting to. Nevertheless, that face isn't guilt. Try it. If you were feeling guilty towards someone, would you pull your mouth back in a grimace and scrunch your eyebrows together? That's not the expression guilt is.

If you don't like the fear explanation for the emotion, I have another emotion that fits the face far better than guilt: disgusted pity. Ansom believes he's the good guy. I would like to point you to a common trope, in which the hero can't kill the defenseless villain because that would be somehow wrong. When Ansom sees Wanda lying on the ground, half-dead and obviously insane, not only is she defenseless, but her insanity could be causing Ansom to wonder whether she was truly in control of her actions. Very few stereotypical, self-proclaimed good-guys are going to kill any defenseless person, even if they are extremely evil.

Why would I need to? It does not matter, and is beyond the scope of this story. My theory doesn't explain why bees drink honey, either: does that mean it is false? It only needs to explain those mysteries directly involved. The pliers getting to Faq requries knowledge of where the pliers were before Faq, and that's not known.

(Funny, I actually can give a darn good reason for them to be there. Can you? Give it a try before reading.)

Spoiler

Show

Where better to hide a powerful artefact than in a bubble kingdom no one knows about?

And with that, I am done with that particular flight of fancy. How the pliers got to Faq is unimportant. They could get anywhere from anywhere, so there's no reason to waste time trying to think up what doesn't need explaining.

This needs explaining because if the 'pliers arrived in FAQ while Jillian was there, she would have noticed them and asked Ansom why he was holding them. Ansom wouldn't have been able to give her a satisfactory answer, and Jillian would be working for Stanley instead.
If the 'pliers arrived while Jillian was out on her last expedition, then it still needs explaining. Why would you move an extremely valuable artifact on short notice? And why would you move it to a nation that no-one knew the location of, much less had any relations with except for mercenary work. I wouldn't be giving my über-powerful weapons to people I only had a casual acquaintance with.

Okay, prove that they couldn't get to Faq in that time frame. The time frame is... hold it, we don't know the time frame. Jillian was away from Faq for an unknown period of time. So, we can't prove it was too short or more than long enough.

The time-frame is immaterial. That was just my choice of words. The part you were meant to concentrate on is how the 'pliers ended up in Faq, and why they ended up there.

Because the person sending the message was unaware that Banhammer allied with Stnaley? Because the person was trying to send a message while someone tried to kill him? Remember, tehre are two pieces of evidence against Stanley destroying Faq: Wanda and Jack are working for him, willingly. For Jillian, it would take a spell to force Wanda to work for Stanley, but that's not what is happening. Jillian is the least informed of all the participants in this event, which at the bare minimum include Wanda, Jack, and Stanley. Her evidence is clearly incomplete, and she only one day ago received the first indication that something more happened in Faq. She has had no time to try to figure out that she may have based her conclusions on insufficient evidence. You can lend all the weight you want on that snippet of a message, but I think it's clear that something far more complex went on in Faq.

This is a game, remember? Natural Thinkamancy and stuff. If nation is allied with another one, all units would have to know immediately. Otherwise, they might auto-attack each other when they met. Whoever sent the message would have known the Dwagons were allies.
Also, Faq wouldn't have known Jetstone was there until the attack started thanks to the surrounding mountains. If Stanley allied to Faq, he wouldn't have been there during the fight. He would be able to get there until the next turn at the earliest. It wouldn't of mattered how close those Dwagons were unless they were already on top of the city. If that was the case, they would have been expected and there would have been no frantic message. Stanley couldn't have moved to help Faq during Jetstone's turn, even if he was one hex away. Knowing that, how would his Dwagons have been at the city? Why would there have been that message about Dwagons and not Jetstone?

I don't think you can say it's clear that something far more complex went on. We have no evidence that anything else actually happened, and your theory, although technically answering one question, gives us plenty more to ponder.

Jetstone was still over the horizon? Person sending didn't have the full story and wasn't given an official message, so made one up based on their own intelligence? Why didn't the message come from Wanda, for instance? Or Jack, who actually is a Thinkamancer? Wanda did not receive an official message from Faq, just something someone sent out in a rush.

If Jetstone was still over the horizon, how would they have reached Faq in one turn? Jillian became a barbarian one turn after she got the message about the Dwagons. Also, if Faq didn't know about Jetstone troops coming to attack, why would they have contacted Stanley?
And now, Natural Thinkamancy again. The person sending couldn't have have made up their own message. They would have had to have been ordered to. A caster isn't affected by Duty, only Loyalty and Obedience. As such, they can show no initiative unless the commander is doing something harmful to the cause. How is sending a message to Jillian allowed there, unless ordered to do so?

On a side not, Jack is not a Thinkamancer. He's a Foolamancer. That's the Numbers alignment of Eyemancy. Thinkamancy is the Fate alignment.

Why does Jetstone have to win? If Stanley barbecued the entire force (along with Faq), Ansom would be embarrassed and he'd hate Stanley. That's consistent with my theory.

If Jetstone didn't win, why was Faq destroyed? If Stanley were allied to Jetstone, why would he have razed it to the ground after winning?

Oh, BTW, Charlescomm Archons under Jetstone employ would solve the entire question. They begin by ferrying Jetstone troops over the roughest part of the pass (not the whole way, just the really bad parts). They then provide magical support which has been shown can kill dwagons. Stanley would not accept losses in the defense of another nation, and so flees when the going gets rough and the enemy shows backbone.

Where did the Archons come from now? It is at least somewhat reasonable to assume that Jetstone troops would be attacking Faq. To make a completely unfounded assumption that Charlescomm was involved is almost absurd. Enlisting Charlescomm troops in a fight is not a decision made lightly. Charlie charges high prices for his services, and why would a nation like Jetstone need to use additional mercenaries to take out a weak, three-city nation with soldiers who were more like clerks?

Most mountainous terrain isn't that bad. There are specific places where they need help. A cliff here, a crevice there. You only need to ferry the units across that small obstacle.

And lets not forget that Hannibal crossed the Alps with elephants. Some people grossly underestimate what a dedicated infantry can accomplish. especially an infantry with the right kid of Dirtamancer support.

In order for a force to be able to beat a large group of Dwagons, it would have to be quite large. Yes, it is possible for them to get there just on foot, but it is specifically stated that Faq is accessible only by "air or tunnel". This is a game, I'm sure mountains have their own movement rules. We don't know if they are considered impassable or not.

Tunnels are easily defended. If a large flight of Dwagons was providing aid, they would just have to camp in front of the tunnels, doing breath attacks on the incoming waves.
Also, no one would be able to find it except people who already knew where it was or people with Lookamancers (read: Stanley). Jetstone likely didn't have Lookamancers, otherwise they would be using them instead of scout units. They also wouldn't have lost the Lookamancers, as casters are far too important to risk. Since Jetstone is most likely a strong nation because it was able to organize a massive coalition, they probably haven't lost any cities or major battles recently.

So, making an ally of a hidden little kingdom with mercenary troops is a terrible idea? You are very uncreative in your attempts to find reasons for doing good things. Remember, Stnaley at this point isn't the creature we know today. He's worked his way up the ranks, grabbed an Arkentool, conquers dwagons, and then organizes a takeover of his nation. This is a driven, cunning individual. He has not yet gained the megalomaniacal outlook, and so is probably playing the game the same as everyone. Making allies, destroying threats, and so on. The normal reasons for helping people are reasonable for pre-obsession Stanley.

I doubt that Stanley ever was playing the game like everybody else. He's entirely different. He wasn't popped as an heir or a noble, but as a foot soldier. He wasn't born to rule, and thus does not think like the nobles. He rose from a foot soldier to an Overlord, and that would be enough to give any person delusions of power. Most normal people who were raised to power would most likely abuse that power.
Stanley taking over his nation by force is also a clue that he's not playing the game the same as everyone else. Since he thinks he's better than others because he worked his way up from a piker to the leader of a nation, he wouldn't feel the need to make alliances or engage in any diplomacy other than "give me what I want."

If you like, but I would think the reason that sent Jillian into mercenary service would have been the solution for any other person dissatisfied with Banhammer. In other words, if Wanda and Jack had been dissatisfied, they'd have been with Jillian on merc service.

Would Banhammer have allowed them to go? Casters are extremely valuable in Erfworld. He's not going to risk them on simple mercenary work, no matter how low their morale. A unit low on morale would still have to obey orders.
Also, the casters wouldn't have been able to put themselves on mercenary duty either. Natural Thinkamancy, remember? Jillian could do it, she was an heiress. Banhammer also probably wanted Jillian to go. He wanted a philosopher, not a warrior to be his heir. Wanda and Jack were simply subordinates, as well as too valuable to risk.

[ishnar]

@ishnar:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0126.html
That walnut is no illusion. Jack wasn't even trying to veil them at that point in time. We have already seen that the Arkenhammer can change nuts into pigeons, and there is the "Crack-Thoom!" of the Arkenhammer in that panel. This change from Orly into a Walnut was almost certainly the Arkenhammer's doing. Besides, what would be the point of creating a walnut illusion?

Distraction. It distracted you didn't it? By making the illusion seem more realistic, you didn't question it. Jack is a genius at distractions. An illusion of a person is a lot more believable if it actually speaks.

Jack had just recovered from his insanity moments before when he saw Jillian. He's back in his right state of mind, and wouldn't be creating an absurd veil at this point.

Yes, he already did. If you look in the same panel as the "walnut", you will see that he the false bats are already up besides the illusion of the dragon. In the next panel Jillian attacks the false dragon. The false dragon falls, the illusion of Jack and Stanley rises, and the bats, the veil, fly on their merry way with Stanley and Jack--and the dragon--unharmed. Panels 3, 4, 6, 8, and 9 the bats are the real veiled Stanley and Jack. Everything else is distraction/illusion. The veil and distraction were probably both cast when the dragon breathed fire in panel 2 and Jillian covered her eyes.

Also, while seeing Jillian might have cured him, Parson got him clear headed enough to do his job. See what I see is a distraction.

Also, when exactly did Stanley take Mung with him? He just took 3 unknown Knights with him.

Hrm, well I was certain I could provide a linky, but on review, It appears the panel I thought must be mung, isn't so clear as I thought, so I guess it might not be mung after all.

Ishnar, how would Jack knkow about the walnut->bird thing? At that point in time, he lacked individuality as part of the linked Thinkamancer trio, and Stanley certainly didn't tell him since he got his mind back.

Lacking individuality isn't the same as lacking memories.

[Kreistor]

Kreistor, please please please actually read my posts and respond to what I wrote. Don't put words into my mouth.

If someone misunderstands you, then it is more likely your own choice of words at fault than their understanding. It is not, after all, someone else's job to understand you. I personally never blame someone else for misunderstanding me: I blame myself for not writing in a way they understand. I can't change how you perceive me: I can only change what I write. So, sorry, but if I misunderstood, that's your fault.

I don't have theories about this at the moment. I don't have enough evidence to back them up.

You won't have evidence until the author expounds. So you won't have a theory, only the final answer.

The reasons I want to continue the debate are 1: it's fun and 2: I want to know why you think what you do.

Oh, heck, that's easy! I beleive what I do because in my world, it is better to give an answer based on insufficient information now than to wait two weeks to gather all the proof you need. It's easier to say, "I was wrong" later than to say, "I don't know" now. So I am never going to be embarrassed for making assumptions. Picking the right assumptions is part of what makes me good at what I do.

If you can convince me of your theory, then I'll believe it. I just need to be convinced. Come up with enough stuff that I think is reasonable and I'll go over to your side. That's not inconsistent with my worldview at all.

Anyone actually ever succeeded?

When did I say that someone would become the new commander of the coalition? I was simply saying that someone from that faction would become the leader of that faction.

What do you mean by "faction"? Side? Alliance? Faction is an undefined term. I need it defined to respond. (Remember that thing I mentioned up top about who's at fault for being misunderstood?)

If we're bringing Natural Thinkamancy into it, it gets even simpler. The most senior, highest-ranked person left gives the orders for that faction.

Again, faction is undefined.

Command will just follow a rank hierarchy or whomever the King/Supreme Leader of the nation wants to be the commander. Therefore, orders can be given.

Only if someone is alive to do so. Parson has been hitting command. RCC also just lost a lot of frontline commanders to the collapsing city. What's left to countermand earlier orders? Maybe nothing.

I never, ever, EVER said Charlie didn't have a side. I said he wasn't ruling a nation.

Sides ARE nations. So what if Charles gives his side the trappings of a business? Faq merc'ed out units, and it was a kingdom. That Charlie acts like a merc and uses businesslike terminologies does not make Charlescomm any less a nation than Jetstone or GK

What does it take to start a side? Not much. Jillian could have done it in ruined Faq in one turn.

We can't see Ansom's face clearly until after Wanda tells him to "touch me with them." We have no idea what his expression was when Wanda said "Less than you cost me," so we don't know if that was what he was reacting to.

Ah, true. Accepted.

Nevertheless, that face isn't guilt. Try it. If you were feeling guilty towards someone, would you pull your mouth back in a grimace and scrunch your eyebrows together? That's not the expression guilt is.

When you are going all Paladin, and then discover you have no right to treat your target that way, you feel pain. Emotional pain, but pain nonetheless. A grimace is a reasonable pain response. If my theory is true, Wanda just gave Ansom the biggest ego thwacking of his life. He went from Righteous Anger to Embarrassed Regret in a moment.

If you don't like the fear explanation for the emotion, I have another emotion that fits the face far better than guilt: disgusted pity.

That is neither digust nor pity. Pity is sadness and caring. There's no caring for anyone except Ansom in that image. (If you own the Watchmen comic, you can find a great pity look from Rorshach on page 6 of Chapter 10. The face softens, eyebrows rise in the middle, mouth closed.)

Ansom believes he's the good guy. I would like to point you to a common trope, in which the hero can't kill the defenseless villain because that would be somehow wrong. When Ansom sees Wanda lying on the ground, half-dead and obviously insane, not only is she defenseless, but her insanity could be causing Ansom to wonder whether she was truly in control of her actions. Very few stereotypical, self-proclaimed good-guys are going to kill any defenseless person, even if they are extremely evil.

This is War, not comic book heroism. In war you kill the enemy.

This needs explaining because if the 'pliers arrived in FAQ while Jillian was there, she would have noticed them and asked Ansom why he was holding them.

Might have noticed them. Banhammer was not happy with his heir, and may not have told her about anything he was doing.

If the 'pliers arrived while Jillian was out on her last expedition, then it still needs explaining. Why would you move an extremely valuable artifact on short notice?

Sigh... no. I don't jump through hoops for you. Find your own explanation for that. There's thousands that fit and of those hundreds don't affect the plot.

And why would you move it to a nation that no-one knew the location of, much less had any relations with except for mercenary work.

Maybe so that no one else finds out where it is? That doesn't seem so hard to figure out.

I wouldn't be giving my über-powerful weapons to people I only had a casual acquaintance with.

You're not creative enough to find a scenario where you would?

The time-frame is immaterial. That was just my choice of words. The part you were meant to concentrate on is how the 'pliers ended up in Faq, and why they ended up there.

Don't care. You care. It's not a hole that needs filling.

This is a game, remember? Natural Thinkamancy and stuff. If nation is allied with another one, all units would have to know immediately. Otherwise, they might auto-attack each other when they met. Whoever sent the message would have known the Dwagons were allies.

Would they? RCC had to be informed by Ansom to capture Parson, not kill. How are you determining what someone knew or didn't?

Also, Faq wouldn't have known Jetstone was there until the attack started thanks to the surrounding mountains.

Others can't find Faq, but that doesn't mean Faq can't find them.

If Stanley allied to Faq, he wouldn't have been there during the fight.

Depends on when the enemy was detected and how many turns it took to wheel and deal with Stanley. We don't know how good Faq's scouting was.

It wouldn't of mattered how close those Dwagons were unless they were already on top of the city.

GK to Faq was a one turn trip, until RCC got in Stanley's way.

Stanley couldn't have moved to help Faq during Jetstone's turn, even if he was one hex away.

And you made no assumptions to get to this conclusion? Let's list:
1) How far Faq could detect enemies
2) How long it takes for dwagons to get to Faq
3) How much citizens of a side know about alliances made by their ruler

All it takes is for Faq to detect the advancing enemy forces two turns before they arrive and that whole thing collapses. Suddenly there's time to forge an agreement with Stanley, and for Stanley to get there.

Why would there have been that message about Dwagons and not Jetstone?

Because you're wrong about how much people know automatically? Because you're wrong about the state of the caster that sent the message to Jillian?

I don't think you can say it's clear that something far more complex went on. We have no evidence that anything else actually happened, and your theory, although technically answering one question, gives us plenty more to ponder.

What doesn't create more questions?

I can say that something happened, because I see the whole. If you want to nitpick every mystery, you can leave yourself with only a couple unexplained ones, sure. If that's where you want to lay your money down, go ahead. I won't fault you. But I find that inelegant and uninteresting. I think the author actually created something for us to puzzle out, so I look for it. Most authors do things like that... create interesting backstories, that is.

If Jetstone was still over the horizon, how would they have reached Faq in one turn?

How far do infantry move in one turn? In our world, 10 leagues per day is typical, 20 if pressed. That's far more than a single horizon.

Jillian became a barbarian one turn after she got the message about the Dwagons.

Your side goes down and your upkeep isn't paid, you apparently know right away in their world. In ours, you wouldn't find out you were unemployed until you got contacted. But how does that relate to how far a unit can move in one day?

Also, if Faq didn't know about Jetstone troops coming to attack, why would they have contacted Stanley?

Assuming Faq didn't know? Assuming Stanley didn't move after the attackers?

And now, Natural Thinkamancy again. The person sending couldn't have have made up their own message. They would have had to have been ordered to.

Where do you get the idea casters can't cast without permission? Wanda set off all of the air defenses without permission, and that involved spell casting.

A caster isn't affected by Duty, only Loyalty and Obedience.

Casters are commanders, and so affected by Duty. Klog 10, first paragraph and Duty description.

As such, they can show no initiative unless the commander is doing something harmful to the cause. How is sending a message to Jillian allowed there, unless ordered to do so?

Because casting a spell to inform a warlord in your own army of a danger to your side is not disobedient, undutiful, or disloyal. Free will is disallowed in certain instances, but when no rule forces your actions, you are free to act as you see fit.

On a side not, Jack is not a Thinkamancer. He's a Foolamancer. That's the Numbers alignment of Eyemancy. Thinkamancy is the Fate alignment.

Ah, true. Eyemancy.

If Jetstone didn't win, why was Faq destroyed? If Stanley were allied to Jetstone, why would he have razed it to the ground after winning?

Just because Jetstone didn't win, that doesn't mean they couldn't have destroyed Faq first. Faq might have pulled a Parson and destroyed its cities itself in order to cause more damage, or remove the enemy's victory. Scorched earth, a la Russia (or more accurately Portugal, who did it to Napolean first).

Where did the Archons come from now? It is at least somewhat reasonable to assume that Jetstone troops would be attacking Faq. To make a completely unfounded assumption that Charlescomm was involved is almost absurd.

You wanted fliers. I showed you fliers. What mroe do you want? You don't like the fliers I chose? Okay, let's point out that Jillian has fliers capable of airlifting troops in her forces. that's evidence that there are barbarian mercs with fliers available for Ansom to hire, even if Ansom has none himself.

Enlisting Charlescomm troops in a fight is not a decision made lightly. Charlie charges high prices for his services, and why would a nation like Jetstone need to use additional mercenaries to take out a weak, three-city nation with soldiers who were more like clerks?

Okay, make up your mind. You were the one insisting Ansom couldn't get Jetstone infantry to Faq. You're insisting he can't hire mercs to solve the problem?

In order for a force to be able to beat a large group of Dwagons, it would have to be quite large.

Defeat them, yes. Scare Stanley enough that he packs up and leaves? Not so much, especially with no GK troops on the ground to help. Stanley hates losing dwagons.

Yes, it is possible for them to get there just on foot, but it is specifically stated that Faq is accessible only by "air or tunnel". This is a game, I'm sure mountains have their own movement rules. We don't know if they are considered impassable or not.

I gave them air to deal with the problem. With enough, they could airlift the entire army through the whole pass.

Tunnels are easily defended. If a large flight of Dwagons was providing aid, they would just have to camp in front of the tunnels, doing breath attacks on the incoming waves.

Ya know, we don't see dwagons breathing more than once in a fight. Noticed? Jillian even once notes, "Yeah, get that out of your system." Page 114.

Also, no one would be able to find it except people who already knew where it was or people with Lookamancers (read: Stanley). Jetstone likely didn't have Lookamancers, otherwise they would be using them instead of scout units. They also wouldn't have lost the Lookamancers, as casters are far too important to risk. Since Jetstone is most likely a strong nation because it was able to organize a massive coalition, they probably haven't lost any cities or major battles recently.

There are other ways to stumble onto Faq. An observant person might see through the veil on a flyby. A farmer might be interrogated. An ancient text might include a reference to the area. And the assumption that Jetstone has no Lookamancer is entirely presumptive. Jetstone brought zero casters to the RCC... in fact we have not seen any casters in RCC except Archons. If the lack of a Jetstone Lookamancer in RCC means no Lookamancers in Jetstone, then I guess none of the RCC nations have any casters at all/

[Stanley] wasn't born to rule, and thus does not think like the nobles.

So you believe that nobles think differently? You buy into Ansom's ego-driven ranting?

I don't. Parson just handed him his death through his own arrogance.

He rose from a foot soldier to an Overlord, and that would be enough to give any person delusions of power.

Taking the reigns of a nation is actual power, and not delusional. I think you mean that it's enough to inspire megalomania.

Most normal people who were raised to power would most likely abuse that power.

You do realize that I can call you on that one? This is raw opinion about something our world actually has records of. Are you going to comb through Wikipedia in order to find a list of the majority of born rulers and prove how many did and did not abuse their power? For someone that doesn't beleive things, you're believing a big one right there.

Stanley taking over his nation by force is also a clue that he's not playing the game the same as everyone else.

Because we all know that no heirs in our world gained power by killing their siblings and then their father, the King.

Since he thinks he's better than others because he worked his way up from a piker to the leader of a nation, he wouldn't feel the need to make alliances or engage in any diplomacy other than "give me what I want."

Because when you work your way up like that you never ally with anyone to solve any problem, or gain position. You don't need to be diplomatic in any way to gain the trust of people so that they'll make you look good. There's absolutely no politics in the middle management of an army. and propaganda never helps your status.

Would Banhammer have allowed them to go? Casters are extremely valuable in Erfworld. He's not going to risk them on simple mercenary work, no matter how low their morale. A unit low on morale would still have to obey orders.

Who's presuming now? You don't know. You're thinking Banhammer has to think like you. He doesn't. We don't know enough to know how he'll think. But Jillian is convinced Wanda would never work for the Tool. She's an expert on Wanda: you're not an expert on Banhammer. If Wanda misses Jillian's expectations by so much it surprises Jillian, then there is something major missing from Jillian's knowledge.

Also, the casters wouldn't have been able to put themselves on mercenary duty either. Natural Thinkamancy, remember?

Yeah, you missed that Casters are Commanders, and so subject to Duty.I'll let you rethink this one.

But besides that: casters are not slaves, incapable of acting on their own. even a piker in a field can choose to dance or sing if he's not on guard duty. Free will is disallowed where orders have been given, not where there are no orders to consider. The difference between the piker in the field and the Sofa King piker attacking GK is that the SK piker has orders already, and so has no free will. The one in the field has no orders and so is free to while away his time as he sees fit. Nothing in Natural Thinkamancy forces action or inaction when there are no orders.

I do want one thing from you. How are you interpreting Natural Thinkamancy such that casters are unable to cast at their own discretion? You aren't clear about that. You're assuming I will interpret Klog 10 in the same way you do, and I don't. I see nothing that interprets, "Casting is disallowed without orders." The lack of an order to cast is not an order to not cast, so casting when you've got no orders to is not disobedient. That's the best I can do without further explanation.

[Jon Pander]

Also, when exactly did Stanley take Mung with him? He just took 3 unknown Knights with him.

It does not matter whether Mung went with Stanley or not. He shall attune to and get the pliers. I know this for a fact - it's the only thing which makes sense, given likelihood of the arkenplier's door guarding power, and Mung's habit of guarding doors. It's a perfect fit.

Yes. I have gone mad some time ago. Probably when the OP started this thread with his rather dumb logic.

[Kreistor]

It does not matter whether Mung went with Stanley or not. He shall attune to and get the pliers. I know this for a fact - it's the only thing which makes sense, given likelihood of the arkenplier's door guarding power, and Mung's habit of guarding doors. It's a perfect fit.

Yes. I have gone mad some time ago. Probably when the OP started this thread with his rather dumb logic.

No, no, it's not the Arkenpliers Mung is destined for. It's the Arkenplunger!

[Jon Pander]

I feel bad that you have so many quesitons. Luckily I have the answers. Please don't question them, because I know they're all 100% true. You'll read this and realize the wisdom in my words.

1) Why does Wanda work for Stanley without spell control? [95.6]

He co-signed her car loan because she has bad credit. She's grateful.

2) Why does Jack work for Stanley, if Stanley destroyed Faq?

Stanley doesn't actually exist. Jack foolamancied him into being.

So I guess actually Jack's the one that co-signed the car loan.

3) Why did Wanda not tell Jillian how Faq was destroyed? (Corrolary: why doesn't Jillian ask Wanda?)

Jillian never asked.
Corollary: Jillian is dumb. Like most barbarians. She's the thog of this story.

4) Why does Ansom loathe Stanley? [60.10 and anywhere Ansom calls Stanley the Worm]

The original Stanley, who Jack killed and replaced with a foolamancied illusion, was Ansom's father - he ran out on him as a kid and never paid child support.

5) Why doesn't Stanley loathe Ansom?

Stanley has hope that one day Ansom will come back to him and get into the family business. Plus it's not Ansom's fault that Stanley and Ansom's mom couldn't make it work. It's never the kids' fault when divorce happens.

6) What did Ansom cost Wanda?

$2.75 + tax.

7) Why does Ansom fear touching Wanda with the Arkenpliers?

Cooties.

8) Why is Faq destroyed, not conquered?

Because they didn't switch to Geico.

9) How did dwagons get involved in the fight for Faq?

Everyone was at a bar, and they had too much to drink. No one really knows what started the fight, but tequila, hidden cities and dwagons don't mix.


I hope I answered everything well enough.

[Kreistor]

I feel bad that you have so many quesitons. Luckily I have the answers. Please don't question them, because I know they're all 100% true. You'll read this and realize the wisdom in my words.

Yeah, Right. You think i wouldn't respond to this just because you're right? He don't know me verwee well, do he?

He co-signed her car loan because she has bad credit. She's grateful.

It was a Chrysler. She's not.

Stanley doesn't actually exist. Jack foolamancied him into being.

No, no... it's spelled Fartamancied.

So I guess actually Jack's the one that co-signed the car loan.

Or Fartamancied the Charysler into being. No, wait, all Chryslers are Fartamancied into being. Never mind, then.

Jillian never asked.
Corollary: Jillian is dumb. Like most barbarians. She's the thog of this story.

You and your spelling. It's "thong of this story". Come on, you're telling me you wouldn't hit that?

The original Stanley, who Jack killed and replaced with a foolamancied illusion, was Ansom's father - he ran out on him as a kid and never paid child support.

I've got nuthin. No... wait... yeah, nuthin.

Stanley has hope that one day Ansom will come back to him and get into the family business. Plus it's not Ansom's fault that Stanley and Ansom's mom couldn't make it work. It's never the kids' fault when divorce happens.

Sniff... except in mine. Wahhhh! They flipped a coin to decide who didn't get me! You inconsiderate brute!

$2.75 + tax.

$5+taxes in Canada.

Cooties.

Want a cootie innoculation? Only cost ya $5 bucks. ($2.75 in the US)

Because they didn't switch to Geico.

Yeah, I'm gonna insure myself with a tiny, cold blooded lizard.

Everyone was at a bar, and they had too much to drink. No one really knows what started the fight, but tequila, hidden cities and dwagons don't mix.

Or someone walked into a bar and said, "Ouch." (Gad, someone actually used that on me today. I had to spread the insanity just to get rid of the stink.)

I hope I answered everything well enough.

Perfectly. It couldn't get any murkier.

[BillyJimBoBob]

When did I say that someone would become the new commander of the coalition? I was simply saying that someone from that faction would become the leader of that faction.
If we're bringing Natural Thinkamancy into it, it gets even simpler. The most senior, highest-ranked person left gives the orders for that faction. No bickering about who rises to the occasion. Command will just follow a rank hierarchy or whomever the King/Supreme Leader of the nation wants to be the commander. Therefore, orders can be given.

Actually, this has not been presented consistently.

For the RCC, Ansom gives the orders to end turn. This despite the fact that Ansom is not the leader of the Jetstone side. Ansom isn't shown to be communicating with his king, nor is he shown to be aware that his king has finished with his own troop movements. It could be very awkward for the Jetstone king to have Ansom end turn while the king needed to make moves to react to the situations around the Jetstone cities.

But for GK, Stanley gives the orders to end turn. Even when he is flying off on his own mission with but a tiny fraction of the total GK troops. Parson has to worry about Stanley ending turn at a poor moment.

[#94]

I'm still not too certain about this whole "Stanley the used to be" theory.

Rather then assuming that Stanley was some ambitious, cunning and clever opportunist, isn't it possible that Stanley got to where he is by sheer dumb luck? regardless we have not proof either way so i put forth another theory.

consider this scenario.

Saline IV's army locates a funky looking hammer lying in the middle of a forested hex. Neither Saline IV nor any of his warlords can attune to the Hammer so, being the reasonable ruler we don't know that he was or wasn't, he starts going through his army looking for someone who CAN attune.

some way along he comes along a lowly piker who instantly attunes to the Hammer. next panel we see Saline IV saying.

"Congratulations kid, you just got promoted."

The hammer provides a handy little bonus which keeps Stanley alive while other warlords do what all soldiers eventually do in a TBS game, they get croaked. Eventually through attrition our buddy Stanley becomes Chief warlord.

Saline IV decides he likes Stanley the Piker and makes him an Heir (I'm not even going to go in to this, who knows maybe old king Saline just had a sick sense of humor)

[Kreistor]

"As a warlord he found the Arkenhammer, ..." 79.8

Interesting scenario. No evidence, of course. Pure reach. Doesn't explain why Jack and Wanda work for an incompetent. Doesn't explain how an incompetent with a Arkenhammer wins a lot of battles. You don't even try to explain how someone that was "very fond" of Stanley would jokingly make him Heir. Nor does it explain how Stanley was smart enough to get the Gobwins to break alliance and hit GK, and more importantly not get caught.

[Ethesis]

Well, it's more than just that. Wanda tells Ansom that he cost her far more than she cost him, and Ansom looks sheepishly guilty. She's not lying.

Further, Wanda and Jack both were at Faq, and now work for stanley and against Ansom. Why would both work for the man that destroyed a utopian kingdom? Wanda has that bad girl vibe, sure, but Jack has no reason to work for Stanley. This places a certain amount of counterevidence against Stanley having destroyed Faw as Jillian believes.

If, instead, it was Ansom that attacked Faq, and Stanley only came in to mop up the weakened Jetstone victors, then we now have a reasonable explanation of why Wanda accuses Ansom of costing her so much. He destroyed Faq, lied to Jillian, and cost Wanda in a major way. He may have taken the pliers from her, further aggravating the situation. Wanda and Jack now have vengeance in mind when deciding to work for Stanley, explaining their allegience. It ties everything up in a neat little package, and makes it possible for Jillian to change sides in the future, because Ansom was the worm, not Stanley.

This is, though, only a theory with no evidence. The only way it works is because Jillian does not know for certani what happened to Faq, and Wanda has never enlightened her otherwise.

Just keep an open mind. There is much to learn and the history of the Pliers may be the history of Wanda and Ansom.

Nicely said. Possible, though not necessarily probable. But nicely pointed out.

[Kreistor]

Okay, I just had a flash of insight based on 138.

Vinnie tells us that Caesar didn't believe Jillian about Stanley. He went along to confirm the existence of cities, with intent to restore them.

So, Caesar knows where the pass to Faq is. He has dozens of doombat scouts and personnel he can use to spread out and find the cities. He knows where the pass to Faq is.

So why is he insisting Jillian show him? Jillian is angry and has deep hatred for Stanley, making her a horrible victim. As shown, she'll attack Caesar based on raw emotion, against reason. IWith more than adequate scouting, and a problem prisoner, he doesn't need Jillian, and yet, he is willing to force her to stay.

There's only one reason: Caesar thinks Jillian is lying about Faq.

She wasn't lying about the pass and the dwagons causing her to blame Stnaley (those are confirmed by Stanley coming to the pass and her obvious hatred for him), but she may well have lied about anything beyond Stanley reaching the pass. Everything we know about Faq we know from Jillian, and she may certainly have good reason to lie. Maybe she doesn't want to completely eliminate the possibility of returning some day. Maybe she doesn't want to know the truth herself, so doesn't want anyone else finding out. Or there is something of historic value she wants to protect. So she makes up this thing about Faq in order to get people to look for cities instead of what she's really protecting.

If that's true, any thoughts about Wanda and Ansom go completely up in the air. The fighting doesn't need to be in a mountainous kingdom, accessible only to fliers and tunnelers.

Anyway, it opens things up to more possibilities.

[Kreistor]

Okay, Another thought.

How do we know Faq was destroyed? Jillian tells us that she was a barbarian the day after dwagons were sighted. That implies destruction, but it could mean something else. Perhaps she was intentionally disbanded.

See, I got to thinking about Stanley and his paranoia. It's not uncommon for paranoids to have back-up plans in case they become targetted. Stanley clearly has Faq in his mind as a back-up. But with Faq destroyed, the plan is incomplete. We know that this all happened a long time ago.

What if Faq wasn't destroyed? Banhammer loved his kingdom. He would not have wanted to see it destroyed. He knew that it was destined to fall, but the details of that were not known.

So let's modify this somewhat. Jetstone attacks, as before. Banhammer mounts a defense, but he can see he's going to lose. He contacts Stanley who agrees to protect Faq on one condition: Faq becomes his. Banhammer disbands Jillian to give her the freedom she craves, and surrenders.

Faq falls, because it "loses" to Stanley. Stanley comes in with dwagons and massacres forces that expected to face relatively untrained, untalented soldiers.

Stanley and Jetstone want Faq for the same reason: it's a great back-up in case your main city falls. Keeping it secret is vital to both, or the bubble kingdom loses its usefulness. Transylvito wants it now, too. But the surprise waiting behind that pass is that the cities were never destroyed. Stanley wanted to keep them secret due to his paranoia. Jack and Wanda become his because Banhammer surrendered the side to him, and their cities have effective protection, and they get to work against the one responsible for the loss of their beloved Banhammer. Jillian gets her freedom, but no explanations because she might try to come back if she thought there was anything to come back to. When she does return, Wanda finds her interest in Ansom, and decides a spy that close would be more useful than an emotionally uncontrolled killer.

I just do not see Stanley not rebuilding those cities if he captured them. I cannot believe real estate considered prime by Caesar would be left fallow by Stanley.

[BLANDCorporatio]

What if Faq wasn't destroyed? Banhammer loved his kingdom. He would not have wanted to see it destroyed. He knew that it was destined to fall, but the details of that were not known.

So let's modify this somewhat. Jetstone attacks, as before. Banhammer mounts a defense, but he can see he's going to lose. He contacts Stanley who agrees to protect Faq on one condition: Faq becomes his. Banhammer disbands Jillian to give her the freedom she craves, and surrenders. (snip)

I just wanted to say that after walls and walls of text this was an actually interesting hypothesis; its only "flaw" is that it puts the blame on the Jetstones.

Don't get me wrong, there are quite a few arguments to the idea that it was Jetstone that attacked Faq. But one of them is "and then, it turns out that the Jetstones were the evil ones all along!"- as a twist, it kinda seems ... overdone, unwelcome, facile, too convenient to explain the Ansom-bashing.

[Gez]

But one of them is "and then, it turns out that the Jetstones were the evil ones all along!"- as a twist, it kinda seems ... overdone, unwelcome, facile, too convenient to explain the Ansom-bashing.

Does Ansom need to know?

[BLANDCorporatio]

Does Ansom need to know?

Presumably he was around as a Royal when Faq got attacked. So, presumably, yes.

[Kreistor]

ut one of them is "and then, it turns out that the Jetstones were the evil ones all along!"- as a twist, it kinda seems ... overdone, unwelcome, facile, too convenient to explain the Ansom-bashing.

Not evil. Take a look at how Transylvito was viewed, based soolely on Vinnie. TV got lots of respect. They moved to block the pass against Stanley, Vinnie kept Ansom's ego in check... all evidence is that they are nce vampires.

Not so much anymore. We have to remember that this is a game. There's no point if you aren't playing, like Banhammer wasn't. Jetstone is no different from all the others. They're a side, trying to gain position and grow. On Erfworld, that's not evil.

Second, Ansom is not responsible for the orders of his King. It actually explains his shame or grimace when reminded of his past by Wanda. If he disagreed with his King's desire to take Faq, but as Chief Warlord had to obey orders, then he was stuck in a losing situation: he can only do as ordered. I don't blame Ansom for the situation: I only need him to have encountered Wanda before.

[Gez]

Presumably he was around as a Royal when Faq got attacked. So, presumably, yes.

Is he a good actor? Could he have faked his reactions when Jillian told him her story? I'd vote "no" on both counts, given how he completely lost it when Parson thinkamanced him.

[Kreistor]

Is he a good actor? Could he have faked his reactions when Jillian told him her story? I'd vote "no" on both counts, given how he completely lost it when Parson thinkamanced him.

Charismatic people tend to be good actors, and Ansom is if nothing at least that. So are people that need to inspire others to do things against their normal desires, such as attack things they knwo to be unassailable. So, yes, Ansom is in a position where lying on a regular basis is a necessity. Yes, he got emotional with Parson, but that itself might have been an intentional overreaction to make Parson underestimate him. Note that Ansom called Parson's bluff on "allies" and never gave it another moment's thought. Ansom is well aware of how this game is played, and knew Parson would be trying to cast him into doubt.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Not evil. (snip) We have to remember that this is a game. There's no point if you aren't playing, like Banhammer wasn't. Jetstone is no different from all the others. They're a side, trying to gain position and grow. On Erfworld, that's not evil.

On one hand, semantics: for every one that would make such nuanced distinctions, ten will yell Ansom=despicable bastard.

On the other, I flat disagree. It was not uncommon in fantasy worlds on which games are based to have some sides, based on "alignment" or some-such, be peaceful to each other. Alliances may shift, of course, but if the side doing the shifting is "honorable", they will never attack former allies unprovoked.

This of course rests on how you view the Erfworldian premise. To me, it was stereotypical "good guys" vs stereotypical "bad guys"- now root for the bad guys, since the world turns out to be more like gray and grey (and sympathetic all around) than black or white.

However, I am not going to go the full 180 degrees and go to the conclusion that Jetstone were wilfully manipulating all the others, lying to them and scapegoating Stanley.

Yes it is edgy; it is not new since the Watchmen. Change the plot.

[Kreistor]

On the other, I flat disagree. It was not uncommon in fantasy worlds on which games are based to have some sides, based on "alignment" or some-such, be peaceful to each other. Alliances may shift, of course, but if the side doing the shifting is "honorable", they will never attack former allies unprovoked.

Only by a particular definition of "honorable". Middle Age Japanese honour and European honour are entirely different, with the consequences of dishonour being entirely different in the two cultures. Both were militaristic societies where warfare was constant.

I really don't want to get any further into this discussion. It often leads to contact wit religion or politics, so I'm dropping it here. What I'm saying is that Ansom, by doing what I suggest above, is not evil. Partially because I don't think attacking a neighbour is viewed as evil in Erfworld (Ansom never uses the word in relation to even Stanley... calling him not noble as his worst insult), but also because Natural Thinkamancy forces him to Obey his Ruler, and that takes the responsibility of his actions away from him.

[HandofShadows]

Is he a good actor? Could he have faked his reactions when Jillian told him her story? I'd vote "no" on both counts, given how he completely lost it when Parson thinkamanced him.

Ansom (if head attacked Faq) would have known that Jillian from from Daq the moment she showed up at his HQ with al the Faq style armor on. In other words he would have had a lot of time to prepare.

[Kreistor]

So, we now know that Wanda has survived, and that the Thinkamancers can potentially save the casters from the link. Wanda shuld survive intact. She is also in the right place to find a true healamancer that could cure her brain.

The pliers were last sighted at the top of teh erupting volcano. Despite some hoping that Scarlett survived, we have strong indications taht not a single unit in RCC survived the battle.

Wanda is now in position to retrieve the pliers, if she can find a way back to RCC. It is of course possible the portal to GK still exists, but it is likely buried if it survived at all, which may wind up with any but Sizemore being destroyed instantly for using it. Wanda needs a way back to that region, if she is to retrieve the pliers.

Faq is not far from GK -- a single dwagon flight away, assuming Jillian wasn't lying about Faq (she's our only source for knowing why Stanley may have been heading for that pass in the mountains, and she didn't need to tell the truth about the other side). And Wanda is from Faq, so she knows about the place. Her closest usable portal may be in the ruins of Faq, but she'd need to get through the mountains... which Sizemore can solve with a tunnel for her. Slower than a flier, probably, but at least she knows she can get there. (And he's useful for unburying the pliers when she gets there.) Other than that, we know that Transylvito is within two flights of Faq and so probably two of GK. I doubt they'd let Wanda use the portal, without some form of trade. I don't see TV taking Wanda's allegience to Stanley personally. They sent little to combat GK with in the first place, and they had more reason to hate Stanley than Jetstone. She might be able to trade services with TV for passage to GK, unless TV thinks she's after the pliers.

[Kreistor]

Well, uhm... she got the pliers. And clearly attuned. That puts a much higher probability on her already having them once before and Ansom taking them from her. ANyone doubt that losing an attuned Arkentool would be worth more than 2800 Jetstone troops?

Wanda's got some s'plainin' to do. I think she'll be spilling it to Parson in the next comic. What just happened will inspire questions.

I wonder. Might Wanda have put the idea of hunting Arkentools into Stanley's head, or at least pushed for it when he thought about it, instead of against like anyone else would? Much as she seems to blame that change on failure later, she would have wanted him going after them, if only to place her closer to the Pliers. Just a little nudge at someone that was already teetering on the edge of megalomania? We'll see.