Erfworld 148 - TBfGK, Page 135

[Zorfa_Tamanjoir]

I think we need a vulcanologist to tune in, but I'm thinking this is a suicide mission, mainly because the entire mountain is going to heat up I suspect, even if the dirtamancer keeps the tunnels sealed.

I know that in Hawaii, on the bid island the mountains collect snow, but I don't think that its the regularly active ones. And certainly my memory of pouring liquid aluminum (which is what ~700F?) in HS metals class was that the sand and the molds got quite hot.

Combining that with the noxious gases produced by eruptions, and I really think this is might not end well.

[Pointyleaf]

I think we need a vulcanologist to tune in, but I'm thinking this is a suicide mission, mainly because the entire mountain is going to heat up I suspect, even if the dirtamancer keeps the tunnels sealed.

I know that in Hawaii, on the bid island the mountains collect snow, but I don't think that its the regularly active ones. And certainly my memory of pouring liquid aluminum (which is what ~700F?) in HS metals class was that the sand and the molds got quite hot.

Combining that with the noxious gases produced by eruptions, and I really think this is might not end well.

Melting point of Aluminum is around 1200 F, FWIW. I don't know how much the entire mountain will heat up - dirt's a pretty good insulator; it all just depends on where the lava goes.

[Kyouhen]

The gasses wouldn't be a problem as long as the Trimancer opens some holes for it to vent out of.

[Welf]

No, this is not intended as a suicide run by Parson. The players in his game were intended to WIN if they came up with an outrageous enough cheat, not merely take the enemy with them.

That is a valid point. But only if Parson is the player. As far as I know the only person with free will is Stanley. And technically GK would still win if everybody except the Tool would be croaked.

[Glome]

That is a valid point. But only if Parson is the player. As far as I know the only person with free will is Stanley. And technically GK would still win if everybody except the Tool would be croaked.

It would be a pretty pyrrhic victory though if even Parson didn't survive. Even if somehow Stanley was able to rebuild faster then his enemies were able to regroup and figure out what happened, he would still be left with the same problem that caused him to lose 10 cities in the first place. Without a voice of reason he respects to guide him into making competent tactical decisions, Stanley is doomed in the long run.

[Kreistor]

I think we need a vulcanologist to tune in, but I'm thinking this is a suicide mission, mainly because the entire mountain is going to heat up I suspect, even if the dirtamancer keeps the tunnels sealed.

I'm no vulcanologist, but I know a little more than nothing. There are two basic types of volcanic eruptions.

One type is like Mount St. Helens. In this case, magma wells up deep underground, slowly pushing up the top of the mountain. Pressure builds up until the rock can't hold it back, and then it explodes, powdering the rock, expelling gases, and so forth. The initial event can result in a pyroclastic flow. This is a heavier-than-air gaseous mass at more than 250 celsius made of rock powder, steam, sulfer dioxide, and other gases vented by volcanoes. Anything caught in this 700 km/hr gas cloud dies. Other dust is shot into the atmosphere, where it blankets the land. If breathed in, the dust mixes with mucus in the lungs and becomes cement, killing the victim. I don't think a magma flow is typical after this type of eruption, probably because of the sudden drop in pressure, but don't quote me on that, and I don't know where I could look it up.

The other type is more like Kilauea. Here magma wells up slowly, but is not held back by rock, exiting through vents. In this type, magma flows out of the ground to slowly harden and form new land. Various gases are expelled, but the rock can be seen. It flows like water and can't be outrun, but it can be avoided by taking to high ground, at least until the ground you're standing on doesn't get melted away from below, or you grow tired and fall asleep.

There are others, but I think those are the extreme end points.

What's going to happen? That depends what research the author has done, and what he wants to happen. He could allow Sizemore to create vents, allowing for a controlled magma ejection, or he might decide there's too much power, and the top is going to blow off. It is all up to the author now. There's no predicting what he will allow to happen. We don't know if he has studied this, or for plot reasons wants a particular result, so needs a particular explosion. Science doesn't guide here: art does.

But I would guess that the first type, the explosion, is more useful in this case. More dangerous, too, of course. More dramatic, certainly. More destructive.

[Samargh]

The profile from the tunnels under the volcano looks very familiar, but I can't remember from where. It might be from a sample adventure in the first edition AD&D books, or the basic D&D book with the blue cover that came out in 1980 or so, or maybe somewhere else. All of my RPG stuff is packed away, but somebody must know.

Where is that dungeon from?

Are you thinking of Undermountain?

The one that is supposedly the largest mass grave on the continent?

[fendrin]

I'm no vulcanologist, but I know a little more than nothing. There are two basic types of volcanic eruptions.

One type is like Mount St. Helens. In this case, magma wells up deep underground, slowly pushing up the top of the mountain. Pressure builds up until the rock can't hold it back, and then it explodes, powdering the rock, expelling gases, and so forth. The initial event can result in a pyroclastic flow. This is a heavier-than-air gaseous mass at more than 250 celsius made of rock powder, steam, sulfer dioxide, and other gases vented by volcanoes. Anything caught in this 700 km/hr gas cloud dies. Other dust is shot into the atmosphere, where it blankets the land. If breathed in, the dust mixes with mucus in the lungs and becomes cement, killing the victim. I don't think a magma flow is typical after this type of eruption, probably because of the sudden drop in pressure, but don't quote me on that, and I don't know where I could look it up.

The other type is more like Kilauea. Here magma wells up slowly, but is not held back by rock, exiting through vents. In this type, magma flows out of the ground to slowly harden and form new land. Various gases are expelled, but the rock can be seen. It flows like water and can't be outrun, but it can be avoided by taking to high ground, at least until the ground you're standing on doesn't get melted away from below, or you grow tired and fall asleep.

There are others, but I think those are the extreme end points.

What's going to happen? That depends what research the author has done, and what he wants to happen. He could allow Sizemore to create vents, allowing for a controlled magma ejection, or he might decide there's too much power, and the top is going to blow off. It is all up to the author now. There's no predicting what he will allow to happen. We don't know if he has studied this, or for plot reasons wants a particular result, so needs a particular explosion. Science doesn't guide here: art does.

But I would guess that the first type, the explosion, is more useful in this case. More dangerous, too, of course. More dramatic, certainly. More destructive.

Something to keep in mind too is that unlike a natural eruption, this one may be able to be shaped. What this could mean is the top of the volcano, above the characters, exploding to croak the archons (à la Mt.St.Helens), plus magma flows to wipe out the remainder of the RCC troops (à la Kilauea).

In other words, the believable range of possibilities here exceeds the believable range of possibilities in the real world.

[Fez]

Well in a real volcano, I don't think you have a rail straight tube or pipe that runs directly up the center of the cone. In that regard, its a bit more like those 2nd grade science fair volcanos kids used to make.

Anyway, in terms of it being a suicide tactic, Parson was summoned to win the battle, not survive. And he already was expecting to die when he was telling the casters to head off to the magic realm. All they did was convince him, they are expendable if it means their faction has a chance to win. I still don't see this being the plan, but just brainstorming. Still here is a complete conjecture and set of rambles on the possible:

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• Trimancer wakes up the volcano and directs its output. RCC is stuck in the hex, particularly Archons who can't move since it isn't their turn. Trimancer can thus 100% wipe out all the RCC, and all the forces Stanley sent which might be almost all of his forces.
• Pretty much all the remaining garrison forces are killed too.
• Parson having fulfilled the purpose of his summoning (or because his summoner/Wanda dies) is returned to waking. Perhaps its to deal with his friends who stole his dice. Perhaps its Thomas Covenant-style with RL explanations for the weird fantasy so he isn't sure it ever happened.
• The Trimancer members could survive or not. I think Sizemore is important because the changes he went through in this arc make him more interesting for a future arc. Wanda is primarily important storywise now to see what happens with Jillian.
• If they do survive, perhaps they get the pliers, maybe it even keeps them alive somehow.
• Regardless, death of the RCC ends their turn. So Stanley makes it back. He's won but hurt. One of the side effects of this game breaking magic. If GK is fully destroyed, not even a level 1 capital, then the rules for capturing it, for ruins and what happens to things is broken. He isn't a king anymore. Anyone surviving is now free? A free Wanda or Sizemore or Trimancer... with the pliers?
• Transyvitans have zero way to know what's happened as they don't have the magical thinkamancer triad to pass messages. They don't have any reason to send Caesar back certainly. At most Vinnie comes back. Probably not. Save him for a future arc.
• Jillian comes back too obviously. Her reaction is pivotal. Some revelations would be good, perhaps by Jack or Wanda. Heck, perhaps Trimancer still exists and Jillian's return pulls Wanda out of it and Wanda croaks from the strain. Why is Jillian always booped?

And there is the end of my rambling ideas for how the arc could wrap due to the crazy volcano :)

[Kreistor]

Well in a real volcano, I don't think you have a rail straight tube or pipe that runs directly up the center of the cone.

Well, I don't think anyone has been able to map out the main shaft. At least, I've never encountered that. There are side vents, especially in the magma flow eruptions... little offshoots that spew strams of magma.

One thing to consider in a very old volcano is that the soft spot where the magma pushes up into the mantle actually moves relative to a continent. You can see this in the island chain of Hawai'i. The oldest island is north-west, the youngest SE. That implies the mantle is moving over top of the magma bump. You cna also see this in Yellowstone Park, You can see the progress of the yellowstone hot spot in a map near the bottom. That there is magma directly under the volcano implies a relatively young volcano. Of course, young in geological terms is measured in tens of thousands of years.

But none of that is really important. We don't know what the author has studied in order to make his decisions. He might have a vulcanologist in his pocket or he may have watched a 20 year old documentary about Mt. St. Helens. We can't make any judgements based on science... especially a science like vulcanology where there is so little fact.

[Lamech]

Something to keep in mind too is that unlike a natural eruption, this one may be able to be shaped. What this could mean is the top of the volcano, above the characters, exploding to croak the archons (à la Mt.St.Helens), plus magma flows to wipe out the remainder of the RCC troops (à la Kilauea).

In other words, the believable range of possibilities here exceeds the believable range of possibilities in the real world.

QFT
Also why are we assuming this is even a natural volcano? If it was magically formed by the titans it could be totally unrealistic.

Transyvitans have zero way to know what's happened as they don't have the magical thinkamancer triad to pass messages. They don't have any reason to send Caesar back certainly. At most Vinnie comes back. Probably not. Save him for a future arc.

They do actually have such a thinkamancer. Don't have time to find the link though...

[Kreistor]

They do actually have such a thinkamancer. Don't have time to find the link though...

Archons can send the information to them, if RCC has anyone that remembers about the Stanley strike force. For some strange reason, it seems that they were not sent out with the Hats. I suppose someone may have it pocketed, but I'd expect to see it in the non-fighting pages.

[fendrin]

They do actually have such a thinkamancer. Don't have time to find the link though...

Don King has a thinkamancer, Jillian/Vinny/Caesar do not.
We have no reason to think that Don King has any clue what is going on at GK, so there is no reason to think that that info is getting to J/V/C.

[Pointyleaf]

With regard to who lives and dies, I think that..

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Maggie takes all the backlash when the trimancer link is broken, and dies. This prevents any future trimancer links on GK side (for plot reasons), and redeems her somewhat for Jack's and Misty's problems. She's also the least developed of the remaining GK casters, sadly. I'm starting to like her.

IDK about the rest of GK forces, but I don't expect there to be much left.

[ishnar]

With regard to who lives and dies, I think that..

Spoiler

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Maggie takes all the backlash when the trimancer link is broken, and dies. This prevents any future trimancer links on GK side (for plot reasons), and redeems her somewhat for Jack's and Misty's problems. She's also the least developed of the remaining GK casters, sadly. I'm starting to like her.

IDK about the rest of GK forces, but I don't expect there to be much left.

meh,

There is no reason for backlash. All they have to do is break link slowly and maggie distribute what backlash there is evenly instead of shunting it all on the others.

[Kreistor]

There is no reason for backlash. All they have to do is break link slowly and maggie distribute what backlash there is evenly instead of shunting it all on the others.

There is no proof a slow break of the link is possible. The question becomes: why break the link, now that it is formed? Stanley broke the first, only because he couldn't take all three with him. As they are, their power is unrivaled.

But I know what Stanley's orders will be, if the link were to be broken. "Kill the crap guy, if you have to. I want Wanda and the Thinkamancer at 100%." Ironically, Sizemore has done more for this campaign since it got to GK than either of the other two. He's killed most of the leadership, destroyed one Jetstone regiment, and maybe another when he collapsed the city. He has been the terror from below. Sizemore called the weakness in the spell on Jillian, forewarning its failure.

[Bawon von Howse]

Sadly, I think that Sizemore will die...I think that Wanda is more important to the general plot for EW2...not that I have anything at all to go on!

[Oslecamo]

But I know what Stanley's orders will be, if the link were to be broken. "Kill the crap guy, if you have to. I want Wanda and the Thinkamancer at 100%."

Heh? Why you're saying that? Hamster would know better than anyone that the dirtmancer is pretty darn usefull to be sacrificed like that. Plus he's inside tunnels, where Sizemore is the strongest of them.

If anything, Hamster will keep the link up for some time untill he manages to find a safe way to undo it. You just don't go around sacrificing scarce valuable master-class mancers unless you're desesperate in Efworld.

[Welf]

It would be a pretty pyrrhic victory though if even Parson didn't survive. Even if somehow Stanley was able to rebuild faster then his enemies were able to regroup and figure out what happened, he would still be left with the same problem that caused him to lose 10 cities in the first place. Without a voice of reason he respects to guide him into making competent tactical decisions, Stanley is doomed in the long run.

True dat. This could be a textbook example of a pyrric victory. The only competent counselor left is Jack, and he has issues himself.

Still there is a minimum chance for Stanley. There are two enemies left with the firepower to wipe him out: Charley and Transylvito.
Transylvito doesn't know about the situation. And the only person who could tell them is Charley. Unfortunatly for them they are no more in the RCC, because they just left the coalition this morning to exploit the turn order. And Charley is not the guy to give out information for free. And after the disaster of the choke point King Don is unlikely to send in more troops, as long as he doen't know what is left in GK.
Charley on the other side is a risk. He is magically bound to the contract for at least two turns; and he knows what is left in GK. And if he doesn't he still can ask Parson what his chances will be. And he can send in troops very fast as we have seen. He asked at nigth how many archons he would needand the next morning they were there. Probably Parson will destroy his watch to prevent such a scenario.

[fendrin]

re: breaking the link
I anticipate Parson giving an order like "Thinkamancer, break the link if it can be done without harming the croakamancer, dirtamancer, or yourself."

re: The aftermath
I think Charley may have over-extended himself on this one. Remember, he thought this was a no-lose scenario. You can't overextend in a no-lose scenario, but Parson has tipped the scale. Charley can (and I predict, will) lose a lot at this battle.

Also remember that Charley calling on Parson's mathamancy services is a double-edged sword. Sure Charley gets great info, but Parson gets the same info, plus any parameters Charley gives him.

Put those two together and Charley starts looking like a plum ripe for picking. Stanley's goal is still to get all of the Arkentools.

[Oslecamo]

Put those two together and Charley starts looking like a plum ripe for picking. Stanley's goal is still to get all of the Arkentools.

I wouldn't mind a little bit Stanley and his crew going after Charlie's head after all of this is finished.

If indeed the volcano blast wipes out these archons, Charlie will probably be very crippled. This is, he should have around as many archons as Stanley had dwagons right?

[fendrin]

If indeed the volcano blast wipes out these archons, Charlie will probably be very crippled. This is, he should have around as many archons as Stanley had dwagons right?

We really have no way of knowing how many archons Charley has, or what other units & defenses he might have at his command.

He may also have a few contracts he can collect on for additional troops... his deal with Parson indicates that he is willing to act for a delayed benefit.

[Welf]

Some tactic I would advise in the fight against Charley: Let Sizemore build a tunnel into the next hex. There he and any remaining dance knigth can meet with the Tool and mount the remaining dwagons. A stack with the overlord, an arcentool, the chief warlord and his magic sword should get mad bonus. And any croaked archon can be immediately get uncroaked by the trimancer.

[Kreistor]

Heh? Why you're saying that? Hamster would know better than anyone that the dirtmancer is pretty darn usefull to be sacrificed like that. Plus he's inside tunnels, where Sizemore is the strongest of them.

You're seriously asking that? Okay, here you go. First, he calls him the "turd guy". Stanley has no respect for Sizemore -- not even enough to learn his name. Second, that won't change because Stanley was not present for any of Sizemore's highly effective run (he left before the Jetstone invasion of the tunnels, where Sizemore began to shine). Third, he will never kill Wanda, now that she has proven her loyalty (not to mention she's his favorite caster), and Maggie is necessary to form a new link.

But he needn't break the link anyway. Jack can veil any city as he did for Faq without a link. In the link, Wanda can do more with undead and Sizemore can build terrain faster. Getting GK back up to fighting strength only requires those three things, and the one that doesn't need to be linked to do the job is Jack.

[fendrin]

But he needn't break the link anyway. Jack can veil any city as he did for Faq without a link. In the link, Wanda can do more with undead and Sizemore can build terrain faster. Getting GK back up to fighting strength only requires those three things, and the one that doesn't need to be linked to do the job is Jack.

Veiling GK wouldn't really help. Everyone already knows where it is. If it looks ruined, they'll have problems with other sides trying to claim the ruins to rebuild it themselves.

Really though, the biggest reason Stanley wouldn't order Maggie to shunt all the damage to Sizemore is that Stanley has no clue how linking works. If he knew that the damage from linking could be controlled, he would have ordered Maggie to do that when she broke the link with Misty and Jack. He needed Jack after all, but Maggie and Misty were (at that point) expendable to him.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Well, I don't think anyone has been able to map out the main shaft. At least, I've never encountered that. There are side vents, especially in the magma flow eruptions... little offshoots that spew strams of magma.

I'm not sure that's relevant when you have a master class dirtamancer who is capable of forming rock to his will. If the Trimancer can awaken the volcano, then my guess is that they'll be able to direct any destructive output from it.

With regard to who lives and dies, I think that..

Spoiler

Show

Maggie takes all the backlash when the trimancer link is broken, and dies. This prevents any future trimancer links on GK side (for plot reasons), and redeems her somewhat for Jack's and Misty's problems. She's also the least developed of the remaining GK casters, sadly. I'm starting to like her.

IDK about the rest of GK forces, but I don't expect there to be much left.

I don't think Maggy had anything to do with the backlash to Misty and Jack, or at least wasn't responsible for it. And Maggy is my favorite caster! She's the only one who hasn't been described as being "master class" (unless I've missed it) and she also hasn't done any of the overly potent magics Wanda and Sizemore have. I tend to like characters who aren't enormously powerful but still provide excellent utility. Like poor Bogroll.

We really have no way of knowing how many archons Charley has, or what other units & defenses he might have at his command.

He may also have a few contracts he can collect on for additional troops... his deal with Parson indicates that he is willing to act for a delayed benefit.

It is my hope that Charlie had to pull together all or almost all of his archons in order to send a force capable of taking the GK garrison in one turn. If not, then Charlie is even more overpowered in this setting than I've complained about in the past, and he should be the largest side on Erf. They teleport, fer Elvis's sake! Turn 1, teleport to any city and take it. Turn 2, teleport to any other city and repeat. Turn three, etc. City 1 starts building units for you, and soon enough you control the world. The only thing that might slow you down is awaiting the opportunity to hit a city while more of it's forces are away, so you'll take less losses and so that they will mostly disband.

It is also my sincere desire that we see all of the archons in GK airspace incinerated by the awakening of the volcano, whether that takes the form of an eruption or some kind of lava golem.

[Pointyleaf]

Where do we see evidence that the archons can teleport? I mean, I know they got to GK fast that one time, but they might have already been in the area - we just don't know.

[fendrin]

Where do we see evidence that the archons can teleport? I mean, I know they got to GK fast that one time, but they might have already been in the area - we just don't know.

We don't have any evidence that they can.

Many of the ones that showed up that time were dressed for dance-fighting, indicating that they were in the areas because they were going to join up with Jillian and Vinny. In fact, I would say that they constitute the original number (12? 14? I forget) that Charley asked about.

When Parson then gave him the second calculation (how many archons would it take) he then sent some number more to meet up with them.

Further, we know that Charlescomm had promised more units to the RCC than just the original three archons (based on the RCC data Parson got from his stupid meal). My guess is that they were already en route to GK, but started farther away (or are just slower) than the original three archons.

[SteveMB]

Veiling GK wouldn't really help. Everyone already knows where it is. If it looks ruined, they'll have problems with other sides trying to claim the ruins to rebuild it themselves.

Hmmm... but if it looks like the site was utterly destroyed by the volcano and is now worthless -- but in fact GK can be rebuilt -- a veil to maintain the former impression for as long as possible could be useful....

[Fez]

But I know what Stanley's orders will be, if the link were to be broken. "Kill the crap guy, if you have to. I want Wanda and the Thinkamancer at 100%." Ironically, Sizemore has done more for this campaign since it got to GK than either of the other two. He's killed most of the leadership, destroyed one Jetstone regiment, and maybe another when he collapsed the city. He has been the terror from below. Sizemore called the weakness in the spell on Jillian, forewarning its failure.

Yes, but if by going outside the rules, Parson has done something that will have outside the normal rules effects, there may literally not be any GK left after the eruption. Its already a level 1 capital. What happens if its just erased? Well then, Stanley is no longer the King of anyone. Suddenly you'll have a # of free agents in the form of any surviving casters.