Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141

[Lunaya]

Looks like Uhura in panel 4...

[SirEdward]

Pax Parsonum?

No, Pax Mesocrisetum - Peace of Hamster.

[Devoured_Dude]

HEY!
What do I have to do to avoid being a "pixie"?

I would suggest plastic surgery on the pointy ears and wings.

Noob teasing is very naughty
I admit I giggled, though

elrod13, you need another 40 posts to get out of pixieville, I think. Try getting into a discussion on alignment on the OOTS boards. You'll be done in a day.

[BarGamer]

No, Pax Mesocrisetum - Peace of Hamster.

Pax MisoSoup- The peace of dinnertime. XD

As hard as it is to believe, I actually swallow Janis's arguments. The spell came from the Magic Kingdom, why not have the "Perfect Warlord" pop as a Hippiemancer, JUST IN CASE they themselves come under attack? And/or, as a previous poster said, as an unconventional thinker, a challenger of the status quo?

I also could see Parson playing the Ozymandias/Dr. Manhattan role, and setting himself up as the smart evil nigh-omnipotent bad guy who everyone should be afraid of... and then disappearing back to the Real World.

[Arkaim]

Stanley can probably count all his remaining troops using only his hands and feet now.

Edit: Which reminds me, I remember reading about high scores before. I would be very surprised if Stanley didn't earn a high score from this battle. Assuming the system decided he won, of course.

[DravenFrost]

I've seen a bunch of posts about how Stanley's side is going to function now, or how Parson may eventually split off into his own faction, BUT, there is a chance that he's already out from under Stanley's thumb.

In comic 114 (Link for convenience: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0114.html ) he confides to Sizemore that he is planning to send the casters to the Magic kingdom to become barbarians, should the city fall.

Now debatably the city did not fall to the attackers (unless those units seen watching the volcano from afar decide to hike up the volcano and plant a flag), but it did freakin explode. Gobwin Knob was Stanley's last city (as mentioned even earlier) and if the city itself is literally destroyed, that may count as a "fall", which then may result in the above mentioned barbarianhood for all of them.

This is making a few assumptions, but they aren't without supporting evidence and aren't massive leaps of logic.

Remaining questions: Is Parson really a Hippimancer? If not, what is he? Could the casters be free, but he isn't as he isn't technically a caster but a 'special' overlord that can enter the magic kingdom? If Stanley reestablishes a side, does he get Parson back? And maybe most importantly, what exactly are the rules for a barbarian? We get a sense of it from the comments Jillian makes about becoming a mercenary when her cities fell, but even that is really vague.

Oh, an additional supporting piece of evidence for this theory is that Janice is advising Sizemore to follow Parson. This directly implies that Sizemore has a choice, which didn't really seem like the case prior to this incident. (There were some small indications of independant thought and action, but the loyalty and duty stats probably come into play.)

So, taking it one step further, if all 4 of them (Parson, Wanda, Sizemore and Maggie) are all free, where do they all go? I'm guessing Sizemore will probably listen to Janice when he calms down. Wanda may want some type of vengeance against Jillian, (and likely vice versa, for Ansom). Maggie though, she doesn't strike me as the type to stick with Parson if she has a choice. And what would Parson's want to do now? Since the first second he was transported to Erfworld he was on the receiving end of a massive army marching towards him. Now that he has a breather (in theory), what are his priorities and motiviations in this world?

Anyway, I realize this post is a little all over the place, but I wanted to throw these concepts into the mix.

[ishnar]

Now debatably the city did not fall to the attackers (unless those units seen watching the volcano from afar decide to hike up the volcano and plant a flag), but it did freakin explode.

Those people off in the distance died too.

In games like Civ, a city is never completely destroyed until after the enemy takes control. Otherwise it is just a ruined city pop 0. One of the annoying things about creating a city in Civ is there is no way to move it if you picked a bad spot, or want fewer cities. So a side cannot destroy its own city.

Probably applies here. Erf almost always seems to follow close to Total War style gameplay, and you can't trash you own cities in that game either.

[glissle]

Another problem with the current world "rules" is economy. Right now it seems money making is down to "mining" or "mercenary" work, although trade might be in there somewhere, it is probably strictly in a "settlers of catan", or raw resources only.

I doubt, for example, that there is room for a value added economy or a service economy, other than mercenary work that is. So with no resources to trade or gold to mine, a poor nation has to attack to acquire new mines or tradeable resources.

There have been negotiations over the mathamancy bracer, and the archons sell thinkamancy services.

I think the key to a non-combat economy would be if people starting trading for goods and services for the purpose of increasing the productivity of their natural resources, especially the renewable ones such as farms. We already know that one could hire a dirtamancer to produce gems more quickly, but that would only accelerate the need to grab more farming territory to replace the consumable wealth of the gems.

Ironically, uncroaked farm labor could help elevate the sophistication of the economy by subsidizing the upkeep of the living, if Stanley wasn't kidding about not needing to feed the uncroaked. Sometimes I wonder if Banhammer relied on uncroaked for farming and mining, given his disdain for non-intellectuals. I don't think the absence of uncroaked in Jillian's depictions of FAQ to Ansom is definitive, as she probably knew of Ansom's feelings about croakamancy.

Incidentally, I sometimes wonder why Jillian has never said anything about losing the mercenaries she used to lead. I wonder if Banhammer's mercenary force really consisted of Jillian, Wanda, and the casualties of the side they were summoned to help. Wanda being key to Banhammer's mercenary force would have been foreshadowed by Parson's suspicion that she knows a lot about combat.

[Lamech]

Another problem with the current world "rules" is economy. Right now it seems money making is down to "mining" or "mercenary" work, although trade might be in there somewhere, it is probably strictly in a "settlers of catan", or raw resources only.

I doubt, for example, that there is room for a value added economy or a service economy, other than mercenary work that is. So with no resources to trade or gold to mine, a poor nation has to attack to acquire new mines or tradeable resources.

Wargames usually involve fights for basic resources wood and gold Warcraft style. Or strategic resources, Aluminum and Oil in Civilization. Game design encourages fighting over resources even when trade is possible. Mines are capped and designed to run out. Strategic resources become obsolete and new ones must be acquired.

This is looking more Warcrafty though than Civ. Thus technological progress isn't the goal, it's fighting wars. So technology should remain relatively static throughout the series, like Warhammer or Warcraft. Resources will be basic, gold, gems, trees or whatever.

There seems to be quite a bit of room for trade and what not in this game. There was the mathamancy bracer, that could be sold; this whole story was kicked off by the selling of a scroll, so presumably other things can be sold as well. Bogroll made Parson some armour so there is smithing, and Bogroll also made Parson some some food so there is cooking. Casters can make new spells, and presumably sell their services. I think there could be a thriving economy if it was worked at. Maybe...

I would also like to point out for all we know shmuckers do nothing more than pay upkeep costs, pop food and help pop some units. And I for one am unsure that food pops in the field: see that Sizemore has no food in this scene and mentions he didn't realize it was his turn. I think that implies lack of popped food.

As of right now we have very little info on the economy. We don't know all the sources of shmuckers, and we are unsure of everything they can be used for. We don't know what can be done with out shmuckers, and we don't know what is needed to do stuff with out shmuckers. People could establish trade, but maybe not.

[greywords]

Maybe the volcano leveled :)

Yes! It learned the spell "World-wide darkness" and gained the ability "Advanced lava throwing."

Of course, it has to regenerate first...

[greywords]

One of the annoying things about creating a city in Civ is there is no way to move it if you picked a bad spot, or want fewer cities.

At least in Civ 1 and 2, if you had a size 1 city create a settler then it would disband the city. You'd generally have to buy it, though, since otherwise it would rise to a size 2 before it completed construction.

[raphfrk]

We already know that one could hire a dirtamancer to produce gems more quickly, but that would only accelerate the need to grab more farming territory to replace the consumable wealth of the gems.

An economy also depends on goals. In effect "what is the meaning of life"?

Atm, only the overlords/Kings actually have complete free will. Lower ranked units have some, but are magically loyal to the leader of their side. Lowest ranked units have almost none.

For peace to be something that is worth pursuing, there needs to be a benefit to the ones who actually get to make the decisions. It comes down to what drives leaders. Charlie might be content to watch his bank account rise, but others might be more interested in expanding the number of cities.

Also, wars aren't really that bad, if you are a King and don't have to put your life on the line (unless you mess up and get wiped out).

Democracy gives a higher possibility for peace, as the ones who lose the most in wars are the general population, and thus they are less likely to vote for war.

In Erfworld, full democracy doesn't seem possible. The closest could be something like a constitutional monarchy. However, even then, natural thinkamancy would lead to high loyalty to the monarch, rather than the elected representatives.

A possible system could be

- Monarch is formal leader of the side
- All "citizens" of the side are actually barbarians aligned with the monarch
- most of the military strength is held by the citizens
- House of Representatives has no formal (world rules) based power
- All citizens get an equal vote and respect the House

This means that monarch must follow the constitution or all of the citizens can leave the alliance and then he is defenceless.

Also, it is unclear if the leader of a side can abdicate. If he can, then the leader of a side could be a President who is elected. If a defeated President refuses to name the winner as heir and then abdicate, then there would be a civil war (or technically, his side would be overwhelmed by barbarians).

(Ofc, for that to work the winner would have to join the side, and would instantly become loyal to the loser ... though I guess with low loyalty).

In comic 114 (Link for convenience: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0114.html ) he confides to Sizemore that he is planning to send the casters to the Magic kingdom to become barbarians, should the city fall.

He may have been assuming that the city would fall.

They were unclear how things work. When a side ends, all field units die and then all units in cities freeze.

I guess all units in neutral cities go barbarian.

So, taking it one step further, if all 4 of them (Parson, Wanda, Sizemore and Maggie) are all free, where do they all go?

There seems little reason to leave the magic kingdom, unless they are kicked out.

If they are barbarians, then they have to generate income somehow. Casters are probably expensive to unkeep, and not the general type of unit that performs mercenary duties. In fact, barbarian casters probably go to the magic kingdom, assuming that it is really a market place for casters.

[Daemmerung]

Maybe the volcano leveled :)

<straight face>
Why not? Stanley once suggested (page 55,
frame 9) that Uncroaked could level.
</straight face>

Of course, Stanley isn't the sharpest Tool in the toolbox. Still, I hate the idea of all that XP going to waste.

[Gez]

At least in Civ 1 and 2, if you had a size 1 city create a settler then it would disband the city. You'd generally have to buy it, though, since otherwise it would rise to a size 2 before it completed construction.

Colonization (the 1994 original, I don't know about the Civ4 remake) let you disband any city that did not have city walls yet by simply putting all its settlers outside.

[ishnar]

There seems to be quite a bit of room for trade and what not in this game. There was the mathamancy bracer, that could be sold; this whole story was kicked off by the selling of a scroll, so presumably other things can be sold as well. Bogroll made Parson some armour so there is smithing, and Bogroll also made Parson some some food so there is cooking.

Arms trading isn't very supportive of a peaceful economy. While Bogroll cooked--for Parson--It seemed more of a special need Parson had for extra provisions rather than something a normal Erfworlder would be interested in.

For now, I consider the bracer and scroll arms trade, although there is a potential for value added economy, because all trade is in war goods or goods to support the war machine, the goods traded still do not support a peaceful economy argument, in my opinion. Most wargames make allowances for trading goods between peaceful nations, but the tradable goods are only ones available by normal mechanics.

[Kreistor]

Arms trading isn't very supportive of a peaceful economy. While Bogroll cooked--for Parson--It seemed more of a special need Parson had for extra provisions rather than something a normal Erfworlder would be interested in.

Erfworlders eat at other times, too. Parson didn't ask Bogroll for extra provisions: Bogroll did that on his own. I don't see Bogroll doing something for Parson he'd never seen done for another Warlord.

[ishnar]

Erfworlders eat at other times, too. Parson didn't ask Bogroll for extra provisions: Bogroll did that on his own. I don't see Bogroll doing something for Parson he'd never seen done for another Warlord.

Point, although I don't see cooked meals being a source of international trade.

[Glome]

Democracy gives a higher possibility for peace, as the ones who lose the most in wars are the general population, and thus they are less likely to vote for war...

I don't know, even if everyone has free will like they do in this world, it is pretty easy to get people to go to war, as Goering eloquently pointed out

“Naturally the common people don’t want war. But after all, it is the
leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it’s always a
simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy or a
fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are
being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
country.”

Otherwise you can look at the first written example of democracy with the Athenians. Sure the Athenians had a thriving intellectually open democracy, but they were also a militaristic and expansionistic and gladly voted for war whenever they thought they would come out ahead.

And the fact is that Erfworlders gain in two ways when they go to war. First they get plunder like in the real world, but second of all they level and become more powerful unlike on Earth (well for the most part anyway). It seems to me that Erfworlders would only become dissatified with warfare when they are losing, which isn't a great recipe for peace.

There are two ways I can see a peaceful Erfworld, and neither involves a Democracy. The first is to conquer all of Erfworld and kill off all threats to empire (especially nobility). If there is only one side, there is no more war.

The second way is to again kill off the nobility, but put the spellcasters in charge of their respective empires. Since spellcasters can level without fighting, they have less reason to go to war then normal warlords. Then set up the magic kingdom like a UN, and any nation who attacks another gets cut off from the magic kingdom and the rest of the nations will descend on them. Sure the regular folk might not be happy without a way to level or gain loot in either scenerio, but without free will their voice doesn't matter.

[mhoram]

I understood homicidal to mean that they were bent on killing Parson and his dudes. Whether they enjoyed it or not--or whether it was due to revenge or some other motivation--is all the same to someone in Parson's situation.

Right, these people are breaking into his house to kill him and his people. If he surrenders, all the non casters are likely to just get disbanded anyway. So he's got to fight the invaders with everything he has.

The enemy is HOMICIDAL. They want to croak him and all of his.

You don't get any special medals for taking the moral high ground in war. The most you can hope to accomplish by trying is getting people killed to prove a point or for vanity. And I, for one, find that immoral. If you're going to commit to warfare, you commit to warfare.

[Lamech]

For now, I consider the bracer and scroll arms trade, although there is a potential for value added economy, because all trade is in war goods or goods to support the war machine, the goods traded still do not support a peaceful economy argument, in my opinion. Most wargames make allowances for trading goods between peaceful nations, but the tradable goods are only ones available by normal mechanics.

Those were just two examples... we've only seen the war economy. If Wanda wants a collar or a pair of shackels to... play with someone she could go buy one. Perhaps a scroll could be made to summon the perfect friend, wife/husband (are their marriges?), or servent. Math has peaceful purposes in our world, perhaps mathamancy could find some. Just have to be creative.
Or a more concrete example than those: Eyebooks. They have peaceful purposes. (See: texting) They can be made. If the bracer can be sold why not those?

I would also like to point out... not everyone lacks free will, not everyone's a slave. Err... well now that I read it again it doesn't say the "cityless" sides don't have overlords, but it is never mentioned anywhere that their is a lead gobwin.

[raphfrk]

I don't know, even if everyone has free will like they do in this world, it is pretty easy to get people to go to war

True, in fact, I meant to say that there is something like natural thinkamancy in the real world too.

Another issue is that we don't really know what people in Erfworld actually want. It could be that the vast majority like war, even if it means that they might die, and hippiemancers are going against the grain.

For example, Bogroll says that what he wants in life is to save Parson's life. Ofc, that could be just due to cultural effects, rather than his real preference.

... but second of all they level and become more powerful unlike on Earth (well for the most part anyway).

War fatigue doesn't seem to be as big an issue on Erfworld, as it is in the real world. The only real example is that Ansom's speech at the start about the fact that the alliance has been through alot, but that they should stick with it as they will soon achieve their goal.

There are two ways I can see a peaceful Erfworld, and neither involves a Democracy.

Well, arguably, enforced peace where the general population actually wants war isn't necessarily a good thing. It would be like banning a sport like boxing in the real world.

OTOH, they may not realise how good peace is, because they have never seen it.

The second way is to again kill off the nobility, but put the spellcasters in charge of their respective empires. Since spellcasters can level without fighting, they have less reason to go to war then normal warlords.

The impression I get is that it is the fastest way to level. Also, was there confirmation that normal units cannot level except by combat?

[ishnar]

Those were just two examples... we've only seen the war economy. If Wanda wants a collar or a pair of shackels to... play with someone she could go buy one. Perhaps a scroll could be made to summon the perfect friend, wife/husband (are their marriges?), or servent. Math has peaceful purposes in our world, perhaps mathamancy could find some. Just have to be creative.
Or a more concrete example than those: Eyebooks. They have peaceful purposes. (See: texting) They can be made. If the bracer can be sold why not those?

Given Erfworld mechanics. I'm pretty sure the shackles were a basic feature of the dungeon when it was popped. However,

It's not about creativity or potential. It's about mechanics. Right now the economy, especial international trade is totally the domain of the ruler. Items traded are generally beyond the buying power of the faceless masses. Cooked food would be a nice low cost good that could presumably be traded between even the poorest erfworlder, but it's not an item that lends itself to international trade. What is needed is low costs good with only a peaceful utility--as opposed to items that can be used both in war and peace.

The point of having a good economy is it allows a country to still progress forward even when the borders stop moving. So a nation does not feel a compulsion to acquire new territory. Also, a strong economy also means the population is contributing. A stronger economy means lower taxes can actually bring in more revenue.

Here's an important point. What is missing from this page, and this page. Mention of civilian units. No peons, plebes, workers, or miners. In other words no civilians. Stanley is heading off to supposedly start a new side by taking over an abandoned city, but he doesn't need civilians. Why, because game mechanics makes them irrelevant. This is a last ditch defense, so every unit has something to contribute, but there are no civilians, because civilians apparently aren't units.

Possibly the game does have some civilian units, but because they probably only seem to have an associated upkeep for minimal output, they are never popped. Parson would have to show people that even though a single civilian unit might not contribute much to the war effort, a large number of them could contribute to a stronger economy. Right now, apparently, it is considered more effective to pop a higher cost level 1 infantry and order it to mine than pop a cheaper level 1 miner. I suspect that only the poorest nations bother with civilians, or only build them as a stopgap during times when the treasury is empty.

[SteveD]

"Because if he breaks things enough, there may be peace in Erfworld after all."
mmm...
I don't follow Janis, here. She's referring to the War that Will End All the Wars?
If so, it's a dangerous illusion. At least, on the Earth, it didn't never work; on erfworld, who knows? But I'm very skeptical.

She's referring to the fact that the world is set up like (what we perceive as) a war-game, and thus war would effectively be eternal unless the rules of the game were broken or changed.

[raphfrk]

Possibly the game does have some civilian units, but because they probably only seem to have an associated upkeep for minimal output, they are never popped. Parson would have to show people that even though a single civilian unit might not contribute much to the war effort, a large number of them could contribute to a stronger economy. Right now, apparently, it is considered more effective to pop a higher cost level 1 infantry and order it to mine than pop a cheaper level 1 miner. I suspect that only the poorest nations bother with civilians, or only build them as a stopgap during times when the treasury is empty.

Sizemore is high grade miner, though that goes in the other direction. The impression given is that he dug all of the tunnels. He would be a specialist mining unit.

It could be that civilians are able to do standard non-combat actions at a rate equal to a basic military unit, but are cheaper to construct, and have low defence and no offence. Cost benefit might be that a Dirtmancer is optimal, but represents a large initial cost, while civilians are cheap.

But, if civilian units were more efficient, it is likely that some sides may have figured that out. OTOH, maybe the nobles' culture would have considered it dishonourable to win a war via economic means.

[Kreistor]

Sizemore is high grade miner, though that goes in the other direction. The impression given is that he dug all of the tunnels. He would be a specialist mining unit.

You mean he was a mining unit. Parson has learned a lesson that the RCC hadn't... casters are extremely effective in battle, given the proper conditions. Sizemore is now a frontline commander, and probably more equivalent to cavalry. If you think that Parson would leave casters behind in cities while attacking the enemy, you're grossly mistaken. Where other nations leave their casters in cities, Parson will have them brutalizing enemy lines. Parson brings change to Erfworld.

[raphfrk]

You mean he was a mining unit.

True, however, the discussion was about the economics of a side (and relating to the "hypothetical" civilian unit).

Assuming that you have a (hopefully cooled down) volcano with lots of gems in it, does Sizemore provide more benefit to the side staying at home mining or giving a boost to front-line effectiveness.

Shifting units that were previously used for economic activity to military use is the opposite of what was being suggested (increasing the fraction of units used for peaceful purposes).

Ofc, that doesn't mean that it is a bad idea :).

Also, I wonder if the volcano trick can be used elsewhere. For example, it might be capable of causing earthquakes and such.

[MadScientistMat]

In games like Civ, a city is never completely destroyed until after the enemy takes control. Otherwise it is just a ruined city pop 0. One of the annoying things about creating a city in Civ is there is no way to move it if you picked a bad spot, or want fewer cities. So a side cannot destroy its own city.

That didn't apply to the version of Civ that I had - granted, it was an older version that some bugs and some cheat codes hadn't been fixed in. But in that version of Civilization, any time an attacking force defeated a force inside a city, the population would drop by one, and you could, in fact, completely destroy a city this way. You could also order a city to keep producing settlers until the entire city became a group of settler units and you could then relocate it.

[Kreistor]

Assuming that you have a (hopefully cooled down) volcano with lots of gems in it, does Sizemore provide more benefit to the side staying at home mining or giving a boost to front-line effectiveness.

Neither. You need a portal to get ot a city, and the GK portal is either buried or exploded. Sizemore can't get to GK to help out. That is, unless there's a currently existing city, in Stanley's control, about a day's flight away that no one seems to know about because it was part of a bubble kingdom and carefully protected by Stanley as a back-up plan. But then bring Sizemore out via that method might reveal the existence of this theoretical city.

Shifting units that were previously used for economic activity to military use is the opposite of what was being suggested (increasing the fraction of units used for peaceful purposes).

If you're looking for proof of non-combat units, then you want to look here. Mentions clerks. If there were no non-combat units, there would be no clerks. But if you're going to speculate as to the function of such units, you're on your own. We know nowhere near enough about this system to project rules to that kind of function.

Also, I wonder if the volcano trick can be used elsewhere. For example, it might be capable of causing earthquakes and such.

That depends on how you feel about Parson's theory about the system cheating him. If he's right, that's over and what happened to him should never happen again, nor should he be able to repeat it. The next game will have a different objective.

[fendrin]

Neither. You need a portal to get ot a city, and the GK portal is either buried or exploded. Sizemore can't get to GK to help out. That is, unless there's a currently existing city, in Stanley's control, about a day's flight away that no one seems to know about because it was part of a bubble kingdom and carefully protected by Stanley as a back-up plan. But then bring Sizemore out via that method might reveal the existence of this theoretical city.

That's what foolamancers are for.

Problem: something to do with magic.
Solution: more magic!

[DevilDan]

Sizemore is high grade miner, though that goes in the other direction. The impression given is that he dug all of the tunnels. He would be a specialist mining unit.

Just a minor fact check: He said that he dug many of them.