Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

[Seonor]

Buffy vs. Edward. Its perfect.

[TRM]

2. The relative sexiness of the characters is not what makes an item good or bad. The positive portrayal of bad relationships as part of a sweeping teenage romance in Twilight is just part of what makes it bad. The Sopranos (to my understanding) portrays bad relationships negatively, as part of the grittiness and characterisation of the show. Their respective sexiness has little to nothing to do with the portrayal of these relationships.

I may happen to find Darth Vader sexy, but that doesn't mean I would want a relationship with him.

I'm 16 and I hate both Twilight and The Inheritance cycle, don't generalize.

That doesn't mean you don't have the particular brand of 16 year-old boy moronity. All us 16 year-old boys do, it's nothing we can help.

[lisiecki]

The Vampire Lestat was much worse than Twilight in the quality of writing. The entire book was stilted and barely readable.

Thank you good Sir or Madam.
I fully admit to enjoying Interview With the Vampire. It was the first book I read like that, but im sure i enjoyed it because I read it when I was 13 and 14 years later i would hate it.

There's good and bad Ravenloft and other D&D novels. I gave up reading them unless I see a lot of hype about a book and people claiming it's the best ever, then it might be worth a read. They're easy to read, but too easy. I can predict the flow of the entire novel from reading the first chapter or pages. Many of them don't try to do anything as a novel except pass your time.

That is indeed my point.
Twilight is a fun read, Serpentine may just have better taste in media than I do. I fully admit I read the way other people watch TV. Most of what I read is fun, but filler. From time to time i stumble upon something good, but alot of it is stuff you would find in the Sci-Fi department at Borders, and Twilight is at least better than 50% of that.

However, you can't make a comparison of the writing in the books for people saying that this book is better. Many of the people commenting negatively have not read Twilight. They're not comparing the book.

And that Irks me honestly. It is the Interweb, and I am an American, and I believe everyone has the right to say whatever they want, but, it would be nice to see (and has been nice to see) people who have read it who don't care for it, that I can respect.

As for reasons that I can think of for the excessive negative reaction to it:
First, Twilight is blatantly Mary Sue. Most authors who tend be Mary Sue try to restrain themselves and keep the novel more plausible.

See I dissaggree with this.
Lets face it, this is a forum for a comic baised on AD&D.
The most famous characters in D&D novels (or two of the most famous characters I honestly haven't read any new DandD fiction in years, but lots of old stuff) are Elminster and Raistlin Majere, characters who the authors FULLY ADMIT are author inserts (or mary sue's, im not trying to bust on you, but I hate that term, but that's my pet peeve and not something you should have to deal with)

A second thing that jumps out is that it's a romance novel. Many romance novels are illogical, wish-fulfillment books and promote abusive relationships with psychopaths.

True and thats part of the "charm" of romance novels. I'm not saying its healthy, but the idea of being watched over by a powerful lover who keeps you safe while you sleep, I can see why people paint romance on that.

In the Harry Potter novels, the characters act like plausible people. Twilight promotes abusive relationships, bad values, and immorality with a warped, Mary Sue way of thinking.

Yes, but many books have this.
The two examples that spring to mind are Lestat and tyler durden, but there still the stars of books that are "respected", and those aspects fiction don't bother me, as well as there part of an interesting negative.

I think the reason there are anti-Harry Potter groups (and no anti-Twilight groups that I've heard of) is immature people who don't want to think that other people are living beings, actions have consequences or whatever. Twilight is ridiculously immature and delusional when viewed from the outside (without tacitly accepting the book's premise as you would when you choose to read a novel).

Yes, Twilight IS immature, but so is its target audience.

Combining the previous comparison with Harry Potter and fans (or advertising) claiming that Twilight is better than Harry Potter and the best books ever written and such, and I can see why people react against Twilight without reading the books.

Honestly, for the majority of the people who read these novels they most likely ARE the best novels that they've ever read. Any given Harry Potter novel isn't the best novel ever written, but for the target audience, there amazing.
(Note, i concider Harry Potters TARGET audience to be grade/middle school kids, the fact that adults can enjoy them is a happy conciduence, like the Muppet Show)

Doesn't Christopher consent to having Adraina murdered? Not that healthy

Ya, but Christopher and Adraina bring out the worst in one another. Codependent mutilibly abusive relationships are ok with me in fiction, as there rarely if ever portrayed as being anything but horrible.

[Starla]

Buffy vs. Edward. Its perfect.

My husband and I really enjoyed that thanks.

My reaction to this thread was "why is it sacrilege to have a 'sparkly' vampire" and his reply was "it isn't manly."

My enjoyment of the book was the parts I could relate to. I was a pretty girl that didn't know she was pretty. That was a reaction that a lot of the girls identified with when they changed schools--suddenly they had all this attention that didn't make sense to them. I was introduced to the series by a teacher friend who was introduced to the book by her students who related to that specifically.

Secondly, I happen to be very religious and follow the same religion as the author. I was impressed by her ability to completely disregard religion in this fantasy world she created. I thought she was creative and logical in her creation. I like the history of the vampire wars that Jasper explains. I like the history of the werewolves and I like that she had the guts to make the stories her own instead of following someone else's rules. I think she got more adventurous with the Host although she still used a lot of romance for her character's motivations to action.

Thirdly, Edward Cullen as a character did not suck. (No pun intended as I proofread this) He beats himself up a lot yes. He has urges that are hard to control but he does control them. As I read that part in the book where he describes his desire for her and the desire to resist in her best interest, I have say that I felt endeared to Edward Cullen. Men do not desire blood in general, but they do have desires that push some of them to do (in my opinion) horrible things. Some men agree with me that those horrible things should be resisted and I relate that to Edward Cullen. I wish more men would resist.

In the fourth book, I felt that Bella finally progressed as a character. I like how strong she becomes. I don't disagree that the series as a whole is light reading, but that doesn't mean that I can't enjoy them. I bought the first book but I probably won't buy the rest, I just borrowed them.

[Mx.Silver]

Thirdly, Edward Cullen as a character did not suck. (No pun intended as I proofread this) He beats himself up a lot yes. He has urges that are hard to control but he does control them. As I read that part in the book where he describes his desire for her and the desire to resist in her best interest, I have say that I felt endeared to Edward Cullen. Men do not desire blood in general, but they do have desires that push some of them to do (in my opinion) horrible things. Some men agree with me that those horrible things should be resisted and I relate that to Edward Cullen. I wish more men would resist.

Now see this kind of sounds to me like you're suggesting that the majority of men have to exercise large amounts of restraint to avoid raping women they find attractive. I really hope this isn't anything like what you're saying, but nonetheless I feel that I must ask for a little clarification as to what it is you're alluding to here.

[ThunderCat]

Now see this kind of sounds to me like you're suggesting that the majority of men have to exercise large amounts of restraint to avoid raping women they find attractive. I really hope this isn't anything like what you're saying, but nonetheless I feel that I must ask for a little clarification as to what it is you're alluding to here.

I don't know if they're the majority, but a lot of men, especially in non-western cultures, make quite a big deal out of how women need to stop tempting them. For instance, the (in)famous statement by an Australian mufti about how a woman without hijab was like uncovered meat, and that people should realise that if you placed uncovered meat (women) outside and the cats (men) came and ate (raped) it, it wasn't the fault of the cats. Quite insulting for both sexes, really.

Men also tend to score higher on the rape myth acceptance scale which, while mostly focussing on the belief the women enjoy being forced to have sex, includes statements about how women who wear revealing clothes are just asking for trouble, and how promiscuous women are to be blamed if they get raped.

[lisiecki]

Now see this kind of sounds to me like you're suggesting that the majority of men have to exercise large amounts of restraint to avoid raping women they find attractive. I really hope this isn't anything like what you're saying, but nonetheless I feel that I must ask for a little clarification as to what it is you're alluding to here.

Ya...

I mean most mental heath porfesionals who ive talked to, agree that rape is most often about control and power over another human being, not about lust.

Although in all fairness it DOES take quite a bit of self control to stop my self from committing atrocity's...

having hte Osterhagen makes me want to punish all people for cutting me off in traffic

[Fan]

My husband and I really enjoyed that thanks.

My reaction to this thread was "why is it sacrilege to have a 'sparkly' vampire" and his reply was "it isn't manly."

My enjoyment of the book was the parts I could relate to. I was a pretty girl that didn't know she was pretty. That was a reaction that a lot of the girls identified with when they changed schools--suddenly they had all this attention that didn't make sense to them. I was introduced to the series by a teacher friend who was introduced to the book by her students who related to that specifically.

Secondly, I happen to be very religious and follow the same religion as the author. I was impressed by her ability to completely disregard religion in this fantasy world she created. I thought she was creative and logical in her creation. I like the history of the vampire wars that Jasper explains. I like the history of the werewolves and I like that she had the guts to make the stories her own instead of following someone else's rules. I think she got more adventurous with the Host although she still used a lot of romance for her character's motivations to action.

Thirdly, Edward Cullen as a character did not suck. (No pun intended as I proofread this) He beats himself up a lot yes. He has urges that are hard to control but he does control them. As I read that part in the book where he describes his desire for her and the desire to resist in her best interest, I have say that I felt endeared to Edward Cullen. Men do not desire blood in general, but they do have desires that push some of them to do (in my opinion) horrible things. Some men agree with me that those horrible things should be resisted and I relate that to Edward Cullen. I wish more men would resist.

In the fourth book, I felt that Bella finally progressed as a character. I like how strong she becomes. I don't disagree that the series as a whole is light reading, but that doesn't mean that I can't enjoy them. I bought the first book but I probably won't buy the rest, I just borrowed them.

So wait... You feel endeared to a Stalker, Pedophile, Rapist?
Please tell me that isn't the truth.

[lisiecki]

So wait... You feel endeared to a Stalker, Pedophile, Rapist?
Please tell me that isn't the truth.

being attracted to 18 year old women, and having sex with them, is to the best of my knowledge very rarely thought of as pedophilia

[Fan]

being attracted to 18 year old women, and having sex with them, is to the best of my knowledge very rarely thought of as pedophilia

She's 16 in the first book, regardless of what the general opinion of such is, per law it's rape. The 9 months in which she BECOMES 18 during her pregenacy is still both pedophilia, and rape....... There's also the fact that he dumps her off in a forest for a very poorly thought out reason, and only comes back when a semi likable character (Jacob) steps in to stop her from dying from Cold, poison, and various other nasties, because she was starting to like him. Thats not something most people consider "attractive".

[Nerd-o-rama]

The legal age of consent in Washington state is 16, not 18.

HOWEVER! Reading further, 16 and 17 year olds are only legal for people 4 years 11 months older than them or less, which Edward passes by a wide margin. So yeah, looks like he is a criminal.

Edward's still creepy, regardless.

[Fan]

The legal age of consent in Washington state is 16, not 18.

HOWEVER! Reading further, 16 and 17 year olds are only legal for people 4 years 11 months older than them or less, which Edward passes by a wide margin. So yeah, looks like he is a criminal.

Edward's still creepy, regardless.

I'm not familiar with Washington law, so I will apologize for my misconception. Where I happen to live the age is indeed 18, and in my ignorance I had forgotten to check.

[lisiecki]

She's 16 in the first book, regardless of what the general opinion of such is, per law it's rape. The 9 months in which she BECOMES 18 during her pregenacy is still both pedophilia, and rape....... There's also the fact that he dumps her off in a forest for a very poorly thought out reason, and only comes back when a semi likable character (Jacob) steps in to stop her from dying from Cold, poison, and various other nasties, because she was starting to like him. Thats not something most people consider "attractive".

"How old are you, Bella?" His voice sounded frustrated for some reason I couldn't imagine. He'd
stopped the car, and I realized we were at Charlie's house already. The rain was so heavy that I could
barely see the house at all. It was like the car was submerged under a river.
"I'm seventeen," I responded, a little confused.

Meyer, Stephenie. TWILIGHT. New York: LITTLE, BROWN AND COMPANY, 2005 p 46

Damn it I HATE when source material lies to me.
You of course, know much better.

Sorry shes only 18 for 75% of the book...

[Selrahc]

She's 16 in the first book, regardless of what the general opinion of such is, per law it's rape.

Not in like... 95% of the world, including a good portion of the US. The 16 year old thing isn't what makes the age thing creepy. The fact that he is a lot older makes it creepy. That and all the other creepy things.

EDIT: Mega Ninja'd. Blah.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Basically, under Washington law, Edward's biologically cool (19) but chronologically a sex offender (119, right?) I don't think rape statutes really take unaging immortals into account.

EDIT: or maybe she's 17 to begin with, turns 18 before they do the deed, and this conversation was pretty much pointless.

Regardless, Edward is still creepy.

[Fan]

Not in like... 95% of the world, including a good portion of the US. The 16 year old thing isn't what makes the age thing creepy. The fact that he is a lot older makes it creepy. That and all the other creepy things.

EDIT: Mega Ninja'd. Blah.

Like watching her sleep, stating that he is the very defintion of a overly protective boy friend, and a general Schizophreinic (The man can't choose a single personality to roll with. He's all over the place with his general traits.), and having a tendenacy to forget she exists for a period of time until some other guy takes a interest in her?

As for the source material thing, I apologize if my memory is sketchy, but the book was painful enough in the first sitting, let alone warranting a second one.
Also, PLEASE delete that passage, that's one of the worst analogies that I have ever read... If it seemed like the car was even SLIGHTLY beginning to be submersed, I don't care if you hhave a 4 wheel drive, your going with the flow.

[Dirk Kris]

was forced to read books
1st - awful, boring
2nd - not so bad because he wasn't in it until the end

*hides head in shame*

[lisiecki]

As for the source material thing, I apologize if my memory is sketchy, but the book was painful enough in the first sitting, let alone warranting a second one.
Also, PLEASE delete that passage, that's one of the worst analogies that I have ever read... If it seemed like the car was even SLIGHTLY beginning to be submersed, I don't care if you hhave a 4 wheel drive, your going with the flow.

Wow, i have to assume that you've never driven in Michigan in the summer. "Submerged in a river" is quite apt, and you are as correct as well, you do just go with the flow.

On the other hand... Well if your going to make an argument, you may as well check the soruce material before making a definitive statement.

Even at 16 I would hesitate to call him a "pedophile" Bella is clearly a teen who is prepubescent, or if a late bloomer, pubescent. Why not just go all the way and call him a nepiophile?

[Rayzin]

Did you know they have a d20 mod for Twilight... Im serious, some gamer fangirl made a d20 mod for it 0_o.

[Fan]

Wow, i have to assume that you've never driven in Michigan in the summer. "Submerged in a river" is quite apt, and you are as correct as well, you do just go with the flow.

On the other hand... Well if your going to make an argument, you may as well check the soruce material before making a definitive statement.

Even at 16 I would hesitate to call him a "pedophile" Bella is clearly a teen who is prepubescent, or if a late bloomer, pubescent. Why not just go all the way and call him a nepiophile?

The reverse term as keenly stated by Xykon is a Biophiliac, and this also brings up the part where I call Bella a Necrophile. That can be tolerated with Vampires though, so I'm not going to go there.
Also, I don't own the book, and while I'm not adverse to pirating (not that I do it, I just dont see a problem with it.), I'm not going to commit copy right violation for the sake of a trashy book.

[lisiecki]

The reverse term as keenly stated by Xykon is a Biophiliac, and this also brings up the part where I call Bella a Necrophile.

Well your in no way wrong about Bella being a necrophile.
Still if were doing this by age, he would be a nepiophile as Bella has been alive 14% of the time that he has been "alive"

That can be tolerated with Vampires though, so I'm not going to go there.

I can see that. things get strange when talking about the undead, who are for the most part still "people"

Also, I don't own the book, and while I'm not adverse to pirating (not that I do it, I just dont see a problem with it.), I'm not going to commit copy right violation for the sake of a trashy book.

I don't think that 5 lines of quoted text that are referenced counts as a "copyright violation" but I could be wrong.

What I don't understand is why you would make a definitive statement about a book you admit you don't recall. This happened quite often in the doctor horrible thread a few weeks back (although that wasn't you) who frogorot large portions of the movie, and added parts of there own.

Where on eath did you get the age 16?
Even Wikipeida lists her age in twilight as 17

Also, I'm FAIRLY sure that Bella's age is mentioned in the short story on the official website.

[Catch]

I happen to be very religious and follow the same religion as the author. I was impressed by her ability to completely disregard religion in this fantasy world she created.

I'm not going to talk about your religion, mine or any, because GiantITP isn't the place for it. However, that statement is absolutely untrue.

To explain, I have a link, not only because of the forum's rules on certain topics, but because this author did a far better job at picking out the themes from the novels than I ever could. It's a lengthy blog by a former LDS-member, the faith of Meyer's choosing, summarizing all four books in the Twilight series (with a heaping dose of satire and .jpeg non-sequiturs).

For an amusing and insightful read, I suggest you check it out. Twilight true believers have been warned - the author has a dim view of the novels.

[DnDgeek13]

Vampires Don't Sparkle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lisiecki]

Vampires Don't Sparkle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, they do.
While I admit, for along time Vampires existed more or less as zombies, the modern, walking talking selfaware vampire has always sparkled.

Dracula, Carmilla, Ann Rice vampires and White Wolf vampires all sparkle.

I'm sure im missing some continuitys of vampires

but LOTS sparkle

[Catch]

Yes, they do.
While I admit, for along time Vampires existed more or less as zombies, the modern, walking talking selfaware vampire has always sparkled.

Dracula, Carmilla, Ann Rice vampires and White Wolf vampires all sparkle.

I'm sure im missing some continuitys of vampires

but LOTS sparkle

Prove it. Bram Stoker's Dracula was written for cloistered nineteenth-century women, in a time where censorship expunged all notions of intimacy from literature. 'Biting' is a metaphor for coitus, considering it contains submission, penetration and an exchange of fluid. While charming and certainly titillating, Dracula was legitimately fiendish and was executed in the end for his predatory nature. It's a fascinating read, for the development of character through epistolary as well as being horror-twinged slice of life from 1897.

Stephenie Meyer's vampires only appear to be dangerous, but apparently if you smell good, they're docile enough to take home to mommy and daddy. Thanks to the family-friendly image, teenage girls are free to consume (and lust over) the novels because they're injected with a cloying dose of abstinence-only morality, but still contain enough scenes of almost-sex to send hearts a-pounding. Edward and Bella live happily ever after (Spoiler!) with their half-demon baby, arranged to be married to a werewolf.

So, while similar in intent, Meyer's version of the vampire is Disney's "Dracula on Ice."

[lisiecki]

Prove it. Bram Stoker's Dracula was written for cloistered nineteenth-century women, in a time where censorship expunged all notions of intimacy from literature. 'Biting' is a metaphor for coitus, considering it contains submission, penetration and an exchange of fluid. While charming and certainly titillating, Dracula was legitimately fiendish and was executed in the end for his predatory nature. It's a fascinating read, for the development of character through epistolary as well as being horror-twinged slice of life from 1897.

Stephenie Meyer's vampires only appear to be dangerous, but apparently if you smell good, they're docile enough to take home to mommy and daddy. Thanks to the family-friendly image, teenage girls are free to consume (and lust over) the novels because they're injected with a cloying dose of abstinence-only morality, but still contain enough scenes of almost-sex to send hearts a-pounding. Edward and Bella live happily ever after (Spoiler!) with their half-demon baby, arranged to be married to a werewolf.

So, while similar in intent, Meyer's version of the vampire is Disney's "Dracula on Ice."

Anne Rice often describes her vampires hair and skin gleameing with effervescence. Their eyes glowed deer-like in the shadows. And they can fly. They looked like alabaster--pure white and perfectly carved, as if they were made of ivory and not human flesh. When Akasha comes to life, her skin turns a sparkling shade of bronze, gleaming with glitter.

I WIN!

[Catch]

Anne Rice often describes her vampires hair and skin gleameing with effervescence. Their eyes glowed deer-like in the shadows. And they can fly. They looked like alabaster--pure white and perfectly carved, as if they were made of ivory and not human flesh. When Akasha comes to life, her skin turns a sparkling shade of bronze, gleaming with glitter.

I WIN!

I haven't said a word about Anne Rice yet. Now, she may have described her vampire characters as possessing an inhuman grace and beauty, but that's using metaphor, arguably in an extravagant way. When the sun touches their 'alabaster' skin, vampires catch on fire and die.

A disco club will spontaneously erect around Edward Cullen, complete with overstyled hair and questionable wardrobe choices.

At best, that makes Stephenie Meyer unoriginal and and worst, a plagiarist.

[lisiecki]

I haven't said a word about Anne Rice yet. Now, she may have described her vampire characters as possessing an inhuman grace and beauty, but that's using metaphor, arguably in an extravagant way. When the sun touches their 'alabaster' skin, vampires catch on fire and die.

A disco club will spontaneously erect around Edward Cullen, complete with overstyled hair and questionable wardrobe choices.

At best, that makes Stephenie Meyer unoriginal and and worst, a plagiarist.

So... when Anne Rice say's they sparkle, shes using a metaphor, but when myers says her vampires sparkle, shes being literal


Well for craps sake you need to tell me these things man.

Again, I despise it when the source material lies

[Jalor]

Anne Rice often describes her vampires hair and skin gleameing with effervescence. Their eyes glowed deer-like in the shadows. And they can fly. They looked like alabaster--pure white and perfectly carved, as if they were made of ivory and not human flesh. When Akasha comes to life, her skin turns a sparkling shade of bronze, gleaming with glitter.

I WIN!

But Anne Rice still didn't write good vampire literature. Saying "But the 'vampires' from that other bad series did it too" isn't justification. Especially not, as the previous poster stated, it is a metaphor. Meyer was being literal, Rice was not.

Edit: Yes, it's different. Mary Sue Stephanie Meyer Bella remarks on him "sparkling". She says it looks beautiful. It's described as a specific effect, and there's no extravagant metaphor there.

[lisiecki]

But Anne Rice still didn't write good vampire literature. Saying "But the 'vampires' from that other bad series did it too" isn't justification. Especially not, as the previous poster stated, it is a metaphor. Meyer was being literal, Rice was not.

I didn't say its good or not, i said that vampires have a history of sparkle.