OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

[Shatteredtower]

Little things like that don't bother David. He tells Rich he's wrong quite frequently.

Actually, he tells us that the author is wrong frequently, especially when the alternative involves conceding a point. I'm pretty sure the Giant pays it no mind.

It's a puzzling way to view literature, isn't it?

[Alaska Fan]

Reading this kind of lengthy post like the last few ones by D.A. I observe that people will go into lengthy rule discussions to explain why don't like the comic and to criticise the author for the intolerable shortcomings of the story, yet keep coming back to reading it. I can't help thinking of Karl Popper, who said that "they have not learnt how hard it is to solve problems and come nearer to the truth. They have only learnt to drown their fellow human beings in a sea of words." ("Against Big Words", in "In search of a Better World", p. 86).

Wow. RXMD has it right. 22 (!) pages of fevered angst over what conclusions can be drawn from cartoon stick figure art, using D&R rules that the Giant has told only apply if he wants. Arguing over what should happen in a fantasy world where the laws of physics, chemistry and even causation don't consistently apply. Where the characters have themselves complained to us about the laws of probability being sacrificed to plot. And they have even justifiably complained about railroad plots. It's the Giant's Playground; it says so at the top of each page. Get used to it.

I used to enjoy reading the comments for insights and subtleties I missed in the drawings. Lately, not so much. Maybe if some of you aren't enjoying the story, you could go some place else? Please?

[Zanaril]

And he can't make me believe that

Spoiler

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the Hand of God came down from the sky and detonated the missile

at the end of The Stand.

Gah!!! Spoiler!! Spoiler!!

Oh well, at least now I don't need to find another copy so I can finish reading the book.

[Shatteredtower]

I used to enjoy reading the comments for insights and subtleties I missed in the drawings. Lately, not so much. Maybe if some of you aren't enjoying the story, you could go some place else? Please?

Why? How is this complaint different than their expressed lack of dissatisfaction with the comic? I've seen people tell those who've issued a complaint to just go read something else, and been left wondering why they can't do just that when confronted with a post that does the same for them.

It's a poor example to set. Better to follow the Giant's example in this regard: he rarely has anything to say about such criticisms. Odds are that he just ignores them. Very effective technique most of the time, since it's about taking responsibility for your own choices, rather than trying to force them on other people.

If you want these threads to be all about commentary on the comic, stick to commenting on the comic -- not to complaining about the people who come here to complain, criticize, or argue about the comic. The Giant has no issues with that (so long as it remains civil and there are no personal attacks), nor do the mods, so the rest of us either get to deal with it or ignore.

I can't speak for Mr. Argall, but if it helps, I can always change my sig to a disclaimer:

"Warning: Contents may include extreme levels of contrariness and verbosity. Individuals with low tolerances for such are advised to ignore this poster. Please check post length before attempting to read."

[Doug Lampert]

Actually, isn't that an Evil Domain spell, so he should have only gotten one of it, anyway? Or he's 9th level and the DM let him use his 5th level Domain spell to cast it again?

Wait, there is not DM. Nevermind.

You don't need the DM to let you do squat to fill a fifth level slot with a fourth level spell, the ability to download that way is in the standard rules. Thus it doesn't require DM permission and hence doesn't require a DM, it's strictly by the book.

[Menas]

Why? How is this complaint different than their expressed lack of dissatisfaction with the comic? I've seen people tell those who've issued a complaint to just go read something else, and been left wondering why they can't do just that when confronted with a post that does the same for them.

I think it's different because Rich explicitly asked people who have a problem with 'perceived' rules discrepancies to start their own thread and move it out of this one so everyone else doesn't have to parse through it.

And because D&D rule lawyerism is meant to be limited to competitive D&D campaigns, where everyone agrees that is what the game is all about. Bringing it here to a general discussion forum over a comic that parodies a D&D world, but where it's known that DM (The author's) discretion is always going to override the 'devil in the details' to forward the storyline, generally just takes away from the fun of things.

Talk about a negative energy drain....

[abishur]

I think it's different because Rich explicitly asked people who have a problem with 'perceived' rules discrepancies to start their own thread and move it out of this one so everyone else doesn't have to parse through it.

And because D&D rule lawyerism is meant to be limited to competitive D&D campaigns, where everyone agrees that is what the game is all about. Bringing it here to a general discussion forum over a comic that parodies a D&D world, but where it's known that DM (The author's) discretion is always going to override the 'devil in the details' to forward the storyline, generally just takes away from the fun of things.

Talk about a negative energy drain....

Even if Rich didn't ask for that, it sounds like a really great idea that I could fully support. (to the point where I might halfway encourage people just not to respond to such criticism anymore) I mean, it would completely leave a thread like this open to insight about the comic and speculation about where it was going, while still providing an arena for those who, justifiably even, wish to air concerns about the comic based on what damage should have been inflicted, is it possible for that character to cast that spell, and so on and so on.

That said, I would be very sad if all D&D talk disappeared from this thread. Since this comic is (loosely) based on the D&D world, sometimes it helps to have some rule talk.

For instance. I keep seeing speculation that blackwing might carry the phylactery to the rift. But all O-chu asked for was a spell "to increase the range of [his] throw" is there any rule that would cause V's familiar to actually improve accuracy? (a vision boost as it were?)

[Darkhands]

unless you want to start counting the little doodles Rich uses to indicate wounds. (I can only imagine how that would go: "Last time he drew a red crosshatch on the character's cheek, it indicated 8-12hp of damage from a blunt weapon. Now it's supposed to indicate being hit by a fireball? This is ridiculous!")

Oh my god... Please don't give them ideas!!!!!

[abishur]

Oh my god... Please don't give them ideas!!!!!

Don't worry, unless Rich puts out a character sheet on them (something he has strongly refused to do) there's no what to accurately figure out their level, let alone how they've chosen to distribute their stats. Any attempt to do so would just be... I dunno... conceited beyond belief that they think they know so much about each individual character / what specific leveling system Rich has chosen for them such that they could with any true accuracy state an individual's current and total HP? It would be like farting in the wind and then trying to prove which specific molecule of methane came from you two miles down the road using a piece of litmus paper.

[Menas]

That said, I would be very sad if all D&D talk disappeared from this thread. Since this comic is (loosely) based on the D&D world, sometimes it helps to have some rule talk.

I completely agree. I'm just referring to the specific analysis that generally follows comments along the lines of 'this character couldn't have done that based on D&D core rule or supplement rule blah de blah', especially once people start getting upset about it.

These ideas are still fair to pursue of course if that's what you're interested in talking about (with the understanding that your findings aren't likely to have any bearing on the storyline one way or the other), it's just better if those kinds of discussions can be moved to their own topic (and with less than heated emotions preferably).

[rewinn]

... Arguing over what should happen in a fantasy world where the laws of physics, chemistry and even causation don't consistently apply. Where the characters have themselves complained to us about the laws of probability being sacrificed to plot. And they have even justifiably complained about railroad plots...

Heh! And this suggests a new reason why this whole discussion is illfounded: Xykon himself has not complained about O-Chul and V surviving the meteor swarm.

Who knows more about Xykon's magic than Xykon himself???

Although this analysis does suggest what happens in the next strip:

Spoiler

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Xykon logs onto the OOTS forum and complains about the lack of realism.

[abishur]

Although this analysis does suggest what happens in the next strip:

Spoiler

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Xykon logs onto the OOTS forum and complains about the lack of realism.

LOL, pure genius. I can't wait to see it happen from somebody in the strip at somepoint in time!

[Menas]

LOL, pure genius. I can't wait to see it happen from somebody in the strip at somepoint in time!

That would be classic!

Xykon: I just rolled a 42, there's NO WAY you just survived that meteor swarm! Lemme see your character sheet.

[Pronounceable]

^^You know, Rich actually creating a special account for Xykon here on the forums (complete with a special avatar and a fancy title like Badass in the Playground) and use it to do just that would be awesome beyond words.

[David Argall]

all we are shown so far is that V and O-chu have succeed immediate death. What about this has so far not made sense to you?

Your statement for one. I suppose you meant something like "...succeeded in avoiding immediate death.", but the objection is that by any standard except fiat, they should not have survived.

That a NPC had a healing potion on him?

That he has the particular combinations that are being suggested here. it is perfectly reasonable that Jirix is carrying, say a Cure Light potion. But the argument requires he be carrying around Cure Serious potions, which are far from standard issue. The party cleric routinely does a much better job, and effectively for free. Cure Lite gives 1d8+1 for 50 gp = a bit over 10 gp a point. Cure Serious costs 750 for 3d8+5 = about 40 gp a point. And the party cleric does 1d8+5 or 3d8+5 and doesn't charge at all.
Now you carry a couple of potions of Cure Lite because your cleric can go down, and you want to get him back up. But once he is at 1 hp, he can churn out hundreds of hp. The advantage of feeding him a Cure Serious over a Cure Lite is routinely trivial. Either way he gets up and starts casting cures.
Jirix lived surrounded by clerics who could cure him. He was quite possibly one himself. There is just no serious reason for him to be carrying around expensive Cure Serious potions when a cheap Cure Lite will satisfy his needs.

Does it seem improbable to you that V is still alive? He certainly took massive damage when the soul splice was lost, but look at how he's moving while invisable. That's not the movement of some guy on the verge of negative hp, that's someone who has been beat up but is still doing good.

Quite the contrary. The strip has been following the standard D&D rule that 1 hp means you are fully functional. It has also been following a rule that red marks = lost hp, and we can see V has lost a lot of them. So V's figure is quite consistent with her being in single digits.

All of which is to say that even if V and O-chu did get some kind of damage from the metor swarm (which has NEVER killed a character in this strip)

Well, I suppose the zombie dragon could be said to have not been killed since it was not alive, but SoD

Spoiler

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Xykon kills a bunch of angels with it.

they had the HP to endure it. Besides, you'll notice that no fireball actually hit them. At worst they suffer from secondary damage and not the full damage itself. If that's not how it works in a D&D setting, then this is one of those instances where you gotta let it go. I mean, it's based on it yes, but come on give a man a little creative freedom.

It really seems that your only qualm in this sequence is that Rich has not bowed in difference to the almighty D&D tome of regulations. That O-chu got to do too many things in a single action. And yes, you are 100% correct let me not quibble this, based on ANY RPG guidelines O-chu did far too much. But seriously is that how you want to see this comic played out? O-chu grabs phylactery (heck, we'll be generious and call it a surprise round), then he grabs V and stops, politely allows Xy to attack, runs a single rounds worth of distance, stops, lets Xy attack again... ect. It would be a horrible comic.

it takes place fluidly as we might expect it to happen if you or I really did it. Which means, yes, O-chu really could grab the phylactery then grab V while he was running past in one single, fluid movement before anyone had a chance to react.

But it obviously is not anything like one single movement. O-Chul grabs phylactery, moves, grabs V, and moves again.

[quote=Milandros]
There are dozens or even hundreds of little things like this in the comic, right from the very beginning.

If it's stretching credibility that ... two of O-Chul's class levels from before he was a paladin were rogue (thus giving him evasion, and it looks like he's evading the meteors)

And it is stretching. We already know O-Chul took a lot of levels of fighter, and then there is this desire for him to have lots of paladin levels. The only reason to give him rogue levels that that somebody has a cute theory that requires it.

then most of what's already happened must be really hard to swallow.

Strip number three, for example. The goblin ninja is talking, and Elan, Belkar and Vaarsuvuius all fail their listen checks - but regular speech has a DC of 0! That means that even with a -1 penalty from an 8 wisdom, they automatically hear it!!!!!!

That's called a joke. You know, that thing where we violate the rules just for giggles.
Our current situation is not a joke.

Once the author has established that he's going to take liberties with the rules, as in the examples cited, it stops being necessary to explain why things didn't happen how they "should" have gone.

Not at all. The writer merely has said explanation A may not be valid. He still has a duty to explain what is going on. Otherwise, the story is just noise. If he is not following D&D rules, he needs to explain what rules he is following [to the extent we are not assumed to already know it of course]. The need to explain remains either way.

There's a reason that even the Resist Energy (30) potions appear on the DMG's list of random potion generation, while nearly every other listed potion (with the exception of those granting bonuses to armor class) is set to the minimum possible.

That that reason is one we have any interest in is another story entirely. It seems to be merely that Resist Energy is a spell that could be split easily into 3 spells and so the 3 levels are shown, whether or not all three levels actually function in play.
Perhaps more important is that the potion is almost never used in combat. You need to know in advance that you are going to be facing a fire-breathing monster, and your party cleric can cast it better [particularly when it turns out that the creature is acid-breathing.]

As for the issue of V drinking a potion, we see an empty bottle in one hand and V pouring two potions at a time into O-Chul's mouth. Three would have worked as well as two, but if that doesn't suffice, then we have to ask ourselves why V poured one and then two into O-Chul, rather than two and then one.

Entirely the sort of looking for faults I get accused of. It is perfectly reasonable that V poured one potion, and found it was easy enough that she then poured two at once. Pouring all three, or two at once first, risks wasting the potions. So one, and then two is reasonable enough.

The FAQ has something to say about this, and it does have bearing on the greater discussion of how likely V's survival is here:

Quote:
Q: Hey, in Panel X, the character is doing Y, but in Panel X+1, the character is doing Z. What happened?

A: Between panels, the character moved/cast a spell/had a spell cast on him/etc. There are limited panels in each strip, and I give priority to panels that tell jokes first, then advance the plot, and then, only if I have extra room, do I show transitional panels that are not strictly necessary. Use your imagination when it comes to exactly how it happened.

This refers to situations where time is flexible. If O-Chul and V got tossed into his [repaired] cage and left there, we would use this to explain why they are later shown without wounds. But here there is no blank time. We have the time to have V drink a potion or feed a third to O-Chul, but even that is pushing it.

In neither cases is your claim of 80% uselessness anywhere close to accurate.

These potions can be protection vs fire, cold, acid, electricity, or sonic, and you select the type when you make the potion, not when you start suffering damage. You drink Resist energy [cold], it does zero to protect vs fire. There being 5 different types, you have a default chance of 20% of getting the right one from an random potion.

Now we might argue that fire is a popular form of damage and deem that more likely, but we know Xykon has lightning bolt, and given that gigantic amount of acid, that seems a reasonable danger too. So it seems there is going to be a very large chance the character is going to have the wrong potion.

Not when I don't want to be bothered with reaching for the d20 and rolling it four times, especially if I figure the fire damage alone should finish things. Maybe it's laziness, or maybe I'd like to speed things along a little bit. Either seem to work just fine for Xykon, especially since neither of his opponents were fire-proof the last time he hit them with this spell.

As far as we know, Xykon aims by just pointing his finger, which he has to do anyway to cast the spell, meaning you seem to be talking about absurd amount of laziness, the sort you accept as possible only when you have to. When we have to use it as an excuse for something in the strip, we are saying the strip is flawed.

Then again, if we consider Xykon's dialogue when he casts, "Another Meteor Swarm," it doesn't look like he's out to kill them with this spell.

Meteor Swarm is possibly the most deadly spell Xykon has, short of Epic. When you are handing out 24d6 damage to badly wounded opponents, you are not trying to take prisoners. Even Cloudkill would work better. Saying he wasn't trying to kill is nonsense.

clearly playing fast and loose with the rules for the greater benefit of the story.

And just what is the benefit to the story here? A benefit that would not be gained by something like them dodging a Xykon forcecage?

I'm no rules expert, but doesn't this work out if :
O-Chul gets surprise - grabs phylactery.

Combat has started long ago. There is no surprise round in the midst of combat.

Role initiative. O-Chul wins followed by Xykon then V.

If O-Chul acts, he merely positions himself in the initiative order, not creates a new one.

O-Chul acts & moves.

Actually, he moves, acts [grabbing V], and moves again.

Xykon ( who the comic draws in flight) chases & casts for move /action.
V then O-Chul run with movement.

Note here that V at least must get to his feet, which is a move action. Fleeing thereafter is another.

[quote=Scarlet Knight]O-Chul & V talk- uncounted game time...

If Xykon moves & casts, & our heroes survive,

Which is agreeing that it is now Xykon's turn, and he has a host of ways to kill or disable the duo.

First of all, aren't you the one who keeps claiming that we can't rely on the art for anything?

I am the one who keeps reminding people of that. However that does not mean that the artwork is to be deemed wrong. Rather it means we should not put extreme faith in the artwork where it seems dubious.
However the claim here is that O-Chul is using evasion. That claim thus needs positive support. Doubt in the artwork is resolved against the theory.

In any case, I don't see how it can possibly be so clear-cut as to say with certainty that he was being flung away and not dodging.

We have examples of people using evasion. They are obviously jumping clear, or are shown standing there without damage, and mentioning evasion.

you can see that one of O-Chul's legs is stretched forward as if he were jumping - if he were being flung away, presumably his legs would be in a more haphazard position.

Our evading character has legs wide spread, up to 180 degrees. See Haley in 98, the assassin in 453, and Miko in 215. And they are all clearly out of the damage area. O-Chul's legs are spread much like he was running [note the bend], indeed, like he was hit in mid-stride. He also has the shocked look on his face, unlike those in the act of evasion.

I think O-Chul heard Xykon say "Meteor Swarm" from behind him, tossed V and jumped while the meteors were speeding towards them, and the panel we see takes place just after that.

Now just where do we see anything close to that scenario in game or comic? Tossing 100 lbs of elf? 50 feet?, and getting 30' away in the opposite direction? There is a feat somewhere allowing one to toss a halfling, but nowhere near that far and halflings do not weigh nearly as much as elves, not to mention we have no hint that O-Chul has that feat.
No, this "explanation" is worse than the problem. We can somehow believe that somehow the spell doesn't kill them, but believing O-Chul can manage superman level gymnastics... No.

if the author tells us that he's going to do X, whether or not you think X is a good idea, you should not be surprised and disappointed every time he does X.

Surprised, no. Disappointed, possibly. That depends on the individual case.

Here X is "not always obeying the rules of D&D." It's like getting mad every time Wile E. Coyote is unaffected by gravity until he notices it.

But that is one of the rules he exists under.

Without reference to the D&D rules, what we saw was two characters drinking magic potions, then surviving a magic attack.

We see one character drinking potions and then the two survive a very powerful magic attack despite being extremely wounded.

you want to start counting the little doodles Rich uses to indicate wounds.

We do just that. Tho we do not assign precise figures to the result, we do assume the more scratches, the worse for the character.

What it works out to is using the rules of drama and internal consistency to judge the strip, not the niggling details of game rules that the author has already explained he's going to violate from time to time.

And the two produce the same result here. We are not seeing internal consistency when deadly effects do not kill.

[Menas]

It looks like we have need for a 'Why Vaar and O-Chul wouldn't have survived that Meteor Swarm if the OoTS comic strip was actually a serious D&D campaign game - no really, they wouldn't have survived' thread.

Anyone?...... Anyone?.....

Bueller?..... Bueller?....

[TengYt]

It seems that a lot of people in this thread would have liked V and O-Chul to have been killed in the last stip just to follow D&D rules, even though by doing so Rich would have made this entire arc pointless in one fell swoop. This makes me sad. :(

[SadisticFishing]

This has nothing to do with D&D rules. Two extremely wounded characters were just by an extremely powerful spell - and survived. ¿que?

[motub]

Ah yes, a half-page long post... I hardly needed to scroll up to see who the poster was (but it was fun to be right, when I did )

Now you carry a couple of potions of Cure Lite because your cleric can go down, and you want to get him back up. But once he is at 1 hp, he can churn out hundreds of hp. The advantage of feeding him a Cure Serious over a Cure Lite is routinely trivial.

Yuh-huh.
Here's the thing. Cure Light is functionally useless once you're of a decent level. So fine, you use a Cure Light and get your cleric up to 3 HP. And what happens then? He gets hit by the Magic Missile (or worse) that is being thrown around by the other magic users targeting your little group, or hit by the archer in the back using Many Shot, or is caught in the AoE of Fireball, and.... whoops! he's down again, not being able to have cast a single Heal, on himself or anyone else.

I don't know what kind of vacuum you think the party is in where the cleric is somehow going to be free to immediately cast Cures or Heals on himself, so that he can be fit enough to heal the rest of the party (half of which may have died in the two rounds the cleric spent drinking the pointless Cure Light, and then healing himself).

The smart move would indeed be to feed him a Cure Serious, if you've got one, or even a Cure Moderate if you don't, so that he can afford to take a couple of hits, during which time he might have a chance to do something useful for the group that he's supposed to be supporting, before he goes down again.... if he does, since if he can do something useful, the party might dispose of the threat before it can take him down again.

I really wonder what kind of lackadaisical, minimum-threat universe you're playing in... even an old, turn-based, CRPG (I'm thinking of getting across Shaegarne Bridge in Icewind Dale 2) is more dangerous than wherever you're at.

[spargel]

Oddly, I don't see any red marks made from that meteor swarm.

[i6uuaq]

Although this analysis does suggest what happens in the next strip:

Spoiler

Show

Xykon logs onto the OOTS forum and complains about the lack of realism.

congrats for moving this thread away from the rule-lawyering for all of... 3 posts? FWIW, that was hilarious. Hope to see it happen soon.

[jere7my]

This has nothing to do with D&D rules. Two extremely wounded characters were just by an extremely powerful spell - and survived. ¿que?

Easy peasy: they'd just ingested three magic potions between them. Fortunately, the potions happened to protect them from that particular magic spell. Yay good guys! I wonder what'll happen next?

[Radical Raven]

Long time lurker, first time poster. Never played D&D but what the hey, I'll give it a shot.

I've never thought the OotS universe is the D&D universe. It is what the D&D universe would be like if it was real. Thus, why is Jirix carrying around heavy-duty potions? Because he didn't want to die. He's not, in this strip, a mindless enemy, but an actual character- and a high-ranking one at that (he's important, off panel). So , it's perfectly logical for him to be carrying strong-enough potions.

Following another train of thought that hasn't seemed to have been actually objected to yet; Xykon still thinks O-Chul has important imformation. He does'nt want to kill him.

[archon_huskie]

He is also mortal, and thus subject to error, some of which he has admitted to us. So no, he gets no free ride.

He's still the author, you have not changed that.

[Menas]

This has nothing to do with D&D rules. Two extremely wounded characters were just by an extremely powerful spell - and survived. ¿que?

This has nothing to do with rules, eh? Oh, so we're working within the confines of what makes a good story?

Ok, let's go with that. Let's see, have I ever seen a movie or read a story where the hero and/or main character lived through something that we wouldn't expect a person to live through every day? Let's see...... YES!!! Why would that be? Maybe because:

- The movie Commando would have sucked if Arnold had died when he jumped out of the plane.
- The Terminator movies would have sucked if the heroes had died every time they were tossed around by a robot.
- Star Trek would have sucked if the Enterprise and its crew weren't able to perform repairs in record time and lay waste to the enemy.

Based on what we've seen in the OoTS strip, it looks like Rich is saying that the OoTS story would have started sucking if Vaar and O-Chul had just died. I'm fine with that.

Sometimes a good story requires a willful suspension of disbelief. For my part, this doesn't take that much effort. There have already been MANY good reasons thrown out there for how V. and O-Chul could have survived. There could easily be a million more good reasons.

Bottom line - the story says Vaar and O-Chul survived, so they survived. Doesn't bother me at all. Especially since the strip made it look like they weren't even hit by the Meteor Swarm. Possible reasons behind that: Xykon rolled a 1? Phylacteries' enchantments protected them? V and O-Chul both made their saving throws? Does it matter? If you don't like my reasons, come up with some better ones.

The author is NOT obligated to tell us why everything in the story occurs. There aren't secret 'story police' that go out and torture authors if they don't explain the motivations and circumstances for everything that occurs in their books, to the satisfaction of every one of their readers. Every author of every book in the world has NOT filled in the blanks for every reader, for every character, for every situation.

Sometimes, rather than spoon-feeding the readers, the author would like the readers to come up with the reasons for themselves. But the story remains the same whether they do or not.

[abishur]

[color=red]The Voice of Mod: OK, stop it. Everyone.

First, if you want to debate endlessly about a minor aspect of the rules with regard to the comic, take it to another thread. Leave this one for general reactions.

In respect to Rich here, I've started a new thread to discus the D&D reasons for why they should be dead.

Please use it. I fully acknowledge my lack of knowledge about the rules and hope that those who know them will be kind and use the new thread instead of pushing it here.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...44#post6227244

[Radical Raven]

This has nothing to do with rules, eh? Oh, so we're working within the confines of what makes a good story?

Ok, let's go with that. Let's see, have I ever seen a movie or read a story where the hero and/or main character lived through something that we wouldn't expect a person to live through every day? Let's see...... YES!!! Why would that be? Maybe because:

- The movie Commando would have sucked if Arnold had died when he jumped out of the plane.
- The Terminator movies would have sucked if the heroes had died every time they were tossed around by a robot.
- Star Trek would have sucked if the Enterprise and its crew weren't able to perform repairs in record time and lay waste to the enemy.

Based on what we've seen in the OoTS strip, it looks like Rich is saying that the OoTS story would have started sucking if Vaar and O-Chul had just died. I'm fine with that.

Sometimes a good story requires a willful suspension of disbelief. For my part, this doesn't take that much effort. There have already been MANY good reasons thrown out there for how V. and O-Chul could have survived. There could easily be a million more good reasons.

Bottom line - the story says Vaar and O-Chul survived, so they survived. Doesn't bother me at all. Especially since the strip made it look like they weren't even hit by the Meteor Swarm. Possible reasons behind that: Xykon rolled a 1? Phylacteries' enchantments protected them? V and O-Chul both made their saving throws? Does it matter? If you don't like my reasons, come up with some better ones.

The author is NOT obligated to tell us why everything in the story occurs. There aren't secret 'story police' that go out and torture authors if they don't explain the motivations and circumstances for everything that occurs in their books, to the satisfaction of every one of their readers. Every author of every book in the world has NOT filled in the blanks for every reader, for every character, for every situation.

Sometimes, rather than spoon-feeding the readers, the author would like the readers to come up with the reasons for themselves. But the story remains the same whether they do or not.

QFT. We can nitpick all day, but what it comes down to is this; did it actively bother you, while you were reading the strip? If not, than it's not bad writing. And if so, you might need to avoid fantasy.

Now, as for the actual topic here, I commend everyone who actually expected Blackwing to show up there. Myself, I had forgotten he had existed... which makes me wonder whether we should file this under "Chekhov's Gun" or "Deus Ex Machina". Whatever it is, I like it!

[Milandros]

David, tell us, please, at which point the following arguments are impossible, or at least at incredibly low possibility. Please do not reject any point just because it is not the single most likely roll; in drama unlikely rolls happen all the time (the number of action heroes saved when bullets bounce of the metal handrail or similar is incredible).

1. Three potions were drunk, at least two by O-Chul.

2. One of the potions was Resist Energy(Fire), and V has drunk it.

3. The potions being carried by the number three person in the city were brewed by Redcloak or Xykon or are at a relatively high caster level.

4. Xykon did not directly strike either O-Chul or V with the spell; in order to remove chances of missing, he cast at the square O-Chul was in to guarantee damage (therefore he could not have missed with any single meteor).

5. Xykon rolls, on 6d6, slighly below average - 20, 15, 14, 12. It's a bit low, but I've rolled worse myself in games, and if you tell me you've never rolled that badly then I'll be surprised.

6. Thanks to the potion of resist energy(fire), V. survives with no damage, as it absorbs 30 points from each attack.

7. It is therefor completely reasonable for V. to have survived that spell.

8a. One of the two potions O-Chul drank was also fire resistance. Jirix kept those potions because Xykon has a tendency to use Meteor Swarm and absolutely no tendency to be careful about hitting his minions. Therefore O-Chul will also survive.

8b. O-Chul, in his old non-paladin past, had two levels of rogue along with the levels of barbarian or fighter that he also took. If he was a Fighter 8 / Rogue 2, he was still mostly a fighter. That gives him evasion; he saves against one or more of the meteors, thus taking no damage from them.

8c. Absolutely boring and straight method: The potions were Cure Serious Wounds, healing 3d8+15 damage. O-Chul rolls well, and gets 22 and 18, for a total of 70 hit points. After taking the blast damage, he has 9 minus whatever negaive damage he had left.

By 8a,b,or c O-Chul also survives.

Note, please that the did survive - which means that, if you insist on there being a completely compliant 3.5 rules method of such happening, providing one that is not impossible makes it a valid candidate, no matter if you did not see it coming or if the rolls are a little unlikely, as long as they are not ridiculously improbable.

Also:

You make the comment "That's called a joke. You know, that thing where we violate the rules just for giggles."
Really. I would never have guessed. Thank you for educating me.
So it's OK to violate the exact mechanism of the rules for a joke, but not to have a non-average roll for the sake of drama? If O-Chul had slipped on a banana peel halfway down the corridor it would have been ok?
And, do you honestly believe that if I check the next couple of hundred strips I won't find any other similar issues?
You claim it's "stretching" it it think that O-Chul, in his "I wasn't always a paladin" past, never took any rogue levels? Can you find a citation or valid 3.5 rule that states he can't, rather than your current argument, which appears to be "Well, I wouldn't write the character with a chequered past so obviously Rich wouldn't, and if he did then he's wrong, because my view of O-Chul is the correct one?"

[abishur]

David, tell us, please, at which point the following arguments are impossible, or at least at incredibly low possibility. Please do not reject any point just because it is not the single most likely roll; in drama unlikely rolls happen all the time (the number of action heroes saved when bullets bounce of the metal handrail or similar is incredible).

1. Three potions were drunk, at least two by O-Chul.

2. One of the potions was Resist Energy(Fire), and V has drunk it.

3. The potions being carried by the number three person in the city were brewed by Redcloak or Xykon or are at a relatively high caster level.

4. Xykon did not directly strike either O-Chul or V with the spell; in order to remove chances of missing, he cast at the square O-Chul was in to guarantee damage (therefore he could not have missed with any single meteor).

5. Xykon rolls, on 6d6, slighly below average - 20, 15, 14, 12. It's a bit low, but I've rolled worse myself in games, and if you tell me you've never rolled that badly then I'll be surprised.

6. Thanks to the potion of resist energy(fire), V. survives with no damage, as it absorbs 30 points from each attack.

7. It is therefor completely reasonable for V. to have survived that spell.

8a. One of the two potions O-Chul drank was also fire resistance. Jirix kept those potions because Xykon has a tendency to use Meteor Swarm and absolutely no tendency to be careful about hitting his minions. Therefore O-Chul will also survive.

8b. O-Chul, in his old non-paladin past, had two levels of rogue along with the levels of barbarian or fighter that he also took. If he was a Fighter 8 / Rogue 2, he was still mostly a fighter. That gives him evasion; he saves against one or more of the meteors, thus taking no damage from them.

8c. Absolutely boring and straight method: The potions were Cure Serious Wounds, healing 3d8+15 damage. O-Chul rolls well, and gets 22 and 18, for a total of 70 hit points. After taking the blast damage, he has 9 minus whatever negaive damage he had left.

By 8a,b,or c O-Chul also survives.

Note, please that the did survive - which means that, if you insist on there being a completely compliant 3.5 rules method of such happening, providing one that is not impossible makes it a valid candidate, no matter if you did not see it coming or if the rolls are a little unlikely, as long as they are not ridiculously improbable.

Also:

You make the comment "That's called a joke. You know, that thing where we violate the rules just for giggles."
Really. I would never have guessed. Thank you for educating me.
So it's OK to violate the exact mechanism of the rules for a joke, but not to have a non-average roll for the sake of drama? If O-Chul had slipped on a banana peel halfway down the corridor it would have been ok?
And, do you honestly believe that if I check the next couple of hundred strips I won't find any other similar issues?
You claim it's "stretching" it it think that O-Chul, in his "I wasn't always a paladin" past, never took any rogue levels? Can you find a citation or valid 3.5 rule that states he can't, rather than your current argument, which appears to be "Well, I wouldn't write the character with a chequered past so obviously Rich wouldn't, and if he did then he's wrong, because my view of O-Chul is the correct one?"

Guys, please, please, PLEASE let this drop on this thread. A new thread has been created for this very topic, please make use of it

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113776

[gamephil]

You don't need the DM to let you do squat to fill a fifth level slot with a fourth level spell, the ability to download that way is in the standard rules. Thus it doesn't require DM permission and hence doesn't require a DM, it's strictly by the book.

I do hope you were going along with the joke, there, since the point was that the character would have to be 9th level in the sarcastic and facetious comment I was responding to. But, if you weren't, I wasn't aware that Domain spells were covered by that, but it's been a long time since I actually cared about D&D in the slightest (beyond this one comic, so I could get the jokes) so I could be wrong, and am happy to be so.