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Thread: MitD - What We Know
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2009-06-17, 08:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
OK, I know with only 1 tiny doubt what the MitD is. I'm really serious this time. I know some of you read my last post about it being a Vorlon from B5, which was not really serious. I really think I know what it is this time.
I just hope no-one else has posted this before. I searched on the name of the monster and found no hits in the forums.
Spoiler
It's a Dread Linnorm from Monster Manual 2. Pages 142 to 143.
This creature has:
* A CR of 25... so something Xykon would consider quite a powerful monster
* A strength of 40, so it could STOMP like it did in strip 477.
* It specifically says "A creature that is flung...... travels 120 feet and takes 12d6 damage", sounds like what happened to Miko in Strip 374.
* Casts spells as an 18th Level Sorcerer (so could cast Wish)
There is just one problem, this creature apparently has an immunity:
SOD Spoiler:
Spoiler
"....is immune to all spells of the enchantment school"
And so this means Xykon couldn't charm MitD.... unless Rich has decided that an immature one could be enchanted, or perhaps Xykon was using some kind of epic charm spell outside that school ?
Any comments ?
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2009-06-17, 08:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
You didn't cover some of the clues, like,
Would it normally not speak?
Is it of the appropriate size?
Is it beautiful?
Checking the Internet, it seems the one you suggested (Dread) normally has two heads, which rules it out as far as I'm concerned, but if any of the others has the powers you mention, it could work. I personally wouldn't be able to name it, but I would recognise it, so that covers the "can be deduced from the clues".
Grey WolfInterested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2009-06-17, 08:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
Yeah Grey_Wolf_C,
I guess I didn't think about the two heads bit.... there should be 4 eyes in the darkness.... sorry.
OK, from the same section, another subspecies:
SpoilerCorpse Tearer ?
* Only has 1 head, so far as I can see from the description.
* Not quite as strong, but still STR 36, so pretty strong.
* Any creature flung.... travels 110 feet and takes 110 feet and takes 11d6 damage... nearly as much
* Casts spells as a 17th Level Cleric. So it could cast Miracle ?
Or maybe some kind of half breed of the two sub-species ? They are both sub species of the same species.... all around P140 or so of MM2.
The beautiful thing - I think that's somewhat subjective..... I don't really know what to say on that.
The size category thing - if it's an infant, it could be a lot smaller than the fully grown one.Last edited by lothos; 2009-06-17 at 08:26 AM. Reason: wanted to add another point and clarification
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2009-06-17, 08:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
(Please call me Grey Wolf)
I don't have the MM, so I cannot check your numbers, but a 17th level Cleric can cast pretty much anything, including gate (which was suggested as a possibility) and miracle, which covers all bases. At level 8 it also has earthquake, although the ground stomp didn't look like a spell. Being a cleric does require the intervention of a friendly willing deity, but MitD has had a change of heart lately, so maybe a different deity is listening to him now (which would explain why previous pleas went unheard).
So it is a nice possibility, I must say.
Grey WolfInterested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2009-06-17, 08:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
Nice sarcasm there. i actually wasnt being sarcastic though, i'm a fairly blunt person and have come to the conclusion that my bluntness is sometimes taken the wrong way so i try to cover my a-- whenever i feel that i might be misunderstood as to whether or not im insulting someone.
And i wasnt besmirching anything its just that you can claim to be anyone on the internet. For instance prove to me that i am not in fact....i dunno....how about Ron Paul. Basically if I claim to be Ron Paul and you are unable/unwilling to break the laws you cannot prove that i am not and i cannot prove that i am. Whether or not I actually am is irrelevant to the point.
My real issue is when people claim authority and then say something without any proof and just expect you to take it on faith that they are who they say they are.
You posted links. Kudos. that's how an argument should be made if you care whether or not it/you are believed.
I guess i really should have just said:
Originally Posted by selene
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2009-06-17, 08:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
So i was just flipping through the epic level handbook and stumbled across the Atropal on page 159. It fits pretty much everything except for the fact that it is undead :(
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2009-06-17, 08:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2009-06-17 at 08:57 AM.
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2009-06-17, 09:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I figured it out!
Rich mentions that in the "War and XPs" book. To be precise, in the comment page right before (printed) comic #368. Quoting the book (I have it in front of me), Rich wrote:
Originally Posted by Rich, in the book 'War and XPs', right before comic #368JoseB
o/` Ooooh, sweet mystery of liiiiiIIIIIiiife... o/`
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2009-06-17, 09:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
I've found that on the internet, it's best to assume everyone is who they say they are, to a point. When all you are is words, distrusting them makes real conversation impossible.
Anyways, Linnorn makes perfect sense. I like it.
Also, the reason they thought he was beautiful COULD have been the incredibly high charisma score for something so ugly...
By the way, aren't they normally from jungles?
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2009-06-17, 09:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
Re: beautiful: they are also kind of like a dragon, and there is always that fascination with dragons that makes people call a gigantic lizard "beautiful". Must be the scales, or something. Never saw them as beautiful myself, but your mileage may vary and all that.
As I said, I don't have MM with me, but from what I've found in google, at least one of the subtypes is from swamps, so it seems not all are from jungles. Could someone please check?
Edit: Best I've found says "any land" which is very unhelpful.
Grey WolfLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2009-06-17 at 09:17 AM.
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2009-06-17, 09:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I figured it out!
{Scrubbed}
Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2009-06-17 at 03:32 PM.
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2009-06-17, 09:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-06-17, 09:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-06-17, 09:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
That was the sarcastic point I was refering to. But if that wasn't sarcasm but an actual claim? Damn...
My point is what was claimed could be reasonably verified by anyone with access to google with about 5 minutes of searching. Going "don't ask me to take your word for it!" when the information is available to everyone is less practical cynicism and more obstinate and unhelpful.
Yes an arguement should be verifiable, but in the interests of practicality you have to assume that where information is freely available people can do the basic searching on their own if they're unsure. Good lord if people had to reference all the basics whenever they write a report or journal submission alot of people would go slowly crazy.
Anyway, borrowing MMs from a friend later, gonna check for any other MitD candidates.
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2009-06-17, 02:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
Right now, that's not at all what I'm thinking. What I'm thinking is likely against forum rules to type out. Here are my credentials. Feel free to contact me at DAZ or Renderosity, and I will confirm them through either site. I'm Butterfly Fish/butterfly_fish or some variant on every Poser and Vue site.
My internet stores:
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/i...p?vendor=17736
http://www.daz3d.com/i/shop/artistli...ist=13782&_m=d
My galleries:
http://forum.daz3d.com/gallery.php
http://artzone.daz3d.com/index.php?/...user/mygallery
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/member.php
Any other questions?
Well then I'd say you've suffered a what-I-meant-vs.-what-I-said FAIL.
Glad you found that. I suspected, but I honestly didn't know for sure if they'd trademarked every single name. And whether Rich gets into legal trouble is obviously a lot more important than whether I like the character or not.
Which, in my experience, is usually what someone says when they're trying to make excuses for acting like an ass.
Thank you to Droopy and Sadistic Fishing for your support.Done here. Thanks, friends.
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2009-06-17, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
Trying to drag this thread back on topic, we know the MitD:
- Is either quite strong, or has psionic abilities that mimic great strength (stomp, knock Miko through wall).
- Is organic/biological (expected to devour enemies whole, enjoys eating, experiences flatulence, is aware of sexuality).
- Is expected to be scary (by Xy, who knows scary), and has an extreme appearance (hideous or beautiful or both).
- Has a wish-like or gate-like SLA (or psionic power), probable wish-like give his expectations about "hoping really hard".
- His race can be guessed from the clues provided (not something Rich made up).
- Negatives: cannot ususally speak (or perhaps speak common), not usually found in a jungle, probably a youth so his current size may not mean much.
- Xy seems to expect Mitd to be both evil and tractable, but I put this last because it's just interpretation of Xy's actions.
- Edit: the MitD seems to need to sleep after using powerful abilities. This may be the best clue!
In addition to the above, we fans expect the MitD to be something recognizable to main-stream D&D players, or perhaps old-school D&D players, though Rich didn't exactly say this. Still something like a Giant Space Hamster would fit our expectation better than something from a dusty corner of the Fiend Folio or a template stacked oddity.
I think the hardest points to reconcile are "devours enemies whole/clearly organic" with "beautiful in the eyes of some, with strong SLAs (or perhaps psionic)". Thematically, it seems like only a demon or large predator would do both the "devouring" thing and the "beauty" thing, and a large predator would likely lack the "wish" thing.
I think we can rule out outsiders from the "good" planes, as Xy expected MitD to be both evil and scary. An outsider from the "evil" planes seems unlikely, because fans have scoured the books pretty thoroughly without a convincing candidate (given pit fiends don't have kids), plus Xy seems to expect MitD to be tractable, which almost rules out demons.
So, I'm really loooking for something like a Giant Space Hamster - funny, recognizable, and no template stacking or the like. Heck, are there any Giant Space Hamster varieties that would work? I don't have the Elllllves in Spaaaace rules to check.Last edited by Skorj; 2009-06-17 at 05:21 PM.
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2009-06-17, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
I don't know if it was already pointed out in the previous 14 pages, but it just occurred to me that neither Xykon nor anyone else in team evil has any idea mitd can teleport people.
Supposing all of them knows the monster without knowing the teleport or wish-like seems stretched, so probably the creature can't usually do that, but could with a particular template or a particular choice.In memory of Evisceratus: he dreamed of a better world, but he lacked the class levels to make the dream come true.
Ridiculous monsters you won't take seriously even as they disembowel you
my take on the highly skilled professional: the specialized expert
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2009-06-17, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
RC said he knows what the MitD is, but I'm not sure Xy does. Also, even if Xy knows that the MitD has a wish-like SLA, he has no reason to think the MitD would be motivated to rescue O-Chul and V. This will be a more interesting point once Xy and RC have had a chance to chat about the details of the fight in the throne room, but if they never do I see it as inconclusive.
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2009-06-17, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-06-17, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
One D&D monstrous compendium, I think it was (one of the monster books, anyway) featured a group of Giant Space Hamsters, ranging from a "just what it says on the label" horse-sized hamster, to an invisible fire-breathing giant space hamster, to Miniature Giant Space Hamsters (physically indistinguishable from a normal hamster, but marginally more intelligent).
The game Baldur's Gate and its sequel featured, as one of the characters who could join your party, a ranger named Minsc who, after suffering a head injury, had developed the delusional conviction that his hamster, Boo, was actually a miniature giant space hamster and more intelligent than Minsc himself was. His writer steadfastly maintained that it was a delusion and Boo was nothing more than an ordinary hamster, nor did the level of intelligence Minsc attributed to Boo fit "normal" miniature giant space hamsters (as I said earlier in this post, they are more intelligent than normal hamsters, but we're talking "able to learn more complicated tricks," not "smarter than an average human"). However, while Minsc's own Wisdom was 8 (presumably he lost some from his Wisdom score in the head injury, since it was actually illegally low for a 2ed ranger), the statements he attributed to Boo demonstrated a remarkable insight which kept speculation about Boo's true nature alive.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2009-06-17, 07:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
Giant Space Hamsters aren't scary, though. They're fluffy.
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2009-06-17, 07:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
the monster dalmosh from monster manual 5 almost fits the bill, he wouldnt be able to fit in a leotard either
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The Essence Seeker
I am a
SpoilerI Am A Chaotic Evil Human Sorcerer/Rogue (2nd/1st Level)
Ability Scores:
Strength-13
Dexterity-17
Constitution-13
Intelligence-19
Wisdom-16
Charisma-19
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2009-06-17, 08:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
Xykon doesn't seem to suspect the monster as the one who stole his kill, so I'm prone to thinking the monster's wish-like ability is not a typical feature of whatever Xykon thinks it is. Are there monsters out there whose appearance is in the eye of the beholder? Redcloak, Xykon, and the hunters to one extent or another seem to think they know what it is, but it is in some other way an unusual specimen of that. Could they all be wrong?
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2009-06-17, 09:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
oh, like a shapeshifter?
and also: it's probably not a real
creature-ey monster, like a dire rat,
cuz it cast some sorta teleportation spell.
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2009-06-17, 09:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
Giant Space Hamsters were a monster in Elllllves iiiiiiin Spaaaaace!!!, AKA Spelljammer. But as Kisk noted, they're more widly known than Spelljammer because of the Balder's Gate series of games, and the ranger Minsc and his (alleged) Miniture Giant Space Hamster, Boo. Minsc's battle-cry "Go for the eyes, Boo!" is perhaps the most remembered character-fluff one-liner from any computer RPG. Minsc and Boo actually originated in a pencil-and-paper D&D game involving one of the game designers.
The Balder's Gate series was remarkably popular (I think the most popular licensed D&D title ever), and while seemingly every RPG ever has had players with Drizzt-knockoff characters running around, the series featured the only licensed apperance of Drizzt Do'Urden in a computer RPG.
Weren't there "Carnivorous Giant Space Hamsters: an understandable, but regrettable experiment" and the Tyranohamstersaurus, much feared by the Tinker Gnomes? Well, I doubt that's really the MitD, but I just can't figure anything else that combines devouring opponents with powerful SLAa that cause a need to rest (though I understand there are divine powers with that restriction).
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2009-06-18, 12:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
Actually, since (as far as I can tell) we haven't seen the MitD use ANY of its powers in front of Xykon, I would argue that just because Xykon doesn't think MitD did it doesn't mean the power is non-standard. As far as Xykon is concerned, the MitD hasn't ever really done anything (except let Miko escape as part of his plan), so it's reasonable for Xykon to assume MitD had nothing to do with O-Chul's escape.
Greywolf mentioned cleric powers earlier, and that MitD would have to have a deity. Actually, 3rd edition (and I believe 4th as well) required a devout belief in a deity, faith, or philosophy. In short, you don't have to be a cleric of a god to be a cleric (or presumably have clerical powers).
Admittedly, nothing we've seen so far suggests that MitD has any deep belief in anything except stew and tacos."That's a horrible idea! What time?"
T-Shirt given to me by a good friend.. "in fairness, I was unsupervised at the time".
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2009-06-18, 12:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
Wow. Thanks Kish & Skorj. That's messed up about the hamsters. I can't decide if I'm amused or weirded out. Which is probably the point, I guess. LOL.
Done here. Thanks, friends.
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2009-06-18, 05:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
Well, the kids of devils and demons are an offical D&D monster called Cambion.
I don't know the 3.5 rules for those not in detail, but they should be able to reach lvl 18 sorcerer. The template could even be tagged to something nice (a wild elf) to create the "evil or good" dilemma of such a "hellboy"
So daddy was a pit fiend and mommy was an wilf-elf.
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2009-06-18, 08:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD - What We Know
Nice summary by Skorj. Comparing those points to the monster I proposed earlier in this thread:
SpoilerOne of the subspecies of Linnorm, most likely a Corpse Tearer, but could possibly be any of the three:
- Corpse Tearer (1 head, 17 level cleric, STR 36)
- Dread Linnorm (2 heads, so 4 eyes. 18 level Sorcerer, STR 40)
- Grey Linnorm (1 head, 17 level cleric, STR "only" 24).
My points below are all for the Corpse Tearer. All from Pages 140 to 144 of Monster Manual 2 (the 3.5 edition).
It:
- Has a strength of 36, so can stomp. Is specifically mentioned in the text that "A creature that is flung.... travels 110 feet.
- Is a "primeval creature", so would be organic.
- Is an enormous predator with a CR of 28, probably higher than Xykon. Definitely higher than an unmodified Pit Fiend or Balor (both CR 20). A CR of 28 exceeds even that of a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon. In fact, it ties with 1 other monster also on 28 for the highest CR of ALL monsters in MM1 through MM5.
- THe first option casts spells as an 18th level cleric (miracle). The second as an 18th level sorcerer (wish)
- Is in Monster Manual 2, so it's definitely something that's potentially something we can find in a sourcebook.
- Has an "immense body" (presumably when fully grown), but "it usually keeps itself in a compact shape". So it could fit in the darkness, especially if it's not fully grown and yet be large enough to devour whole medium sized creatures.
- Has a listed alignment of "Always Neutral Evil", but it's a magical beast, not an outsider such as a devil or demon, so it's more realistic that it could be swayed towards neutrality by O-Chul than a Pit Fiend or Balor, in my opinion. Also it's more likely to be more easily controlled than a demon.
Furthermore:
- "No young ones have been sighted for centauries, so it is possible these creatures are dying out". It's listed as being "Solitary", so that fits the circumstances in which we meet it in Start of Darkness (I'm not spoilering that, it doesn’t really give anything away).
- They "adjust easily to any climate or terrain"
- They have a listed AC of 33, but no damage reduction.....
- They have a listed charisma of 21, but would be a large predator... this fits easily for me with being beautiful to some observers, but also fearsome.
- They have a listed dexterity of 9, so it would be a bit clumsy... perhaps breaking it's power ranger figures ?
- It has keen senses and "Sees four times as well as a human in low light conditions and twice as well in normal light"
- Has Dark vision to 120 ft range
Looking at all of the above, I think it's a pretty good fit (the first of the 3 subspecies I list especially). The only thing I really have *nothing* to correlate with is that there's nothing about any of the 3 subspecies needing to sleep after using abilities..... sigh.
I’m going to keep looking through the source books for something better, especially for something that needs to sleep after using a spell like or psionic ability like wish or stomp. It might be from an adventure... who knows. So far, I think this monster is by far the best match.
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2009-06-18, 08:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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