melee or magic?

[Sinfire Titan]

Poor fighters and their crossclass skills.

And Armor Check Penalties. Nice Full Plate, hope you like my Grease spell!

[Eldariel]

I don't think that's a proper assessment of what the Balance skill plays into. When the game was released, there weren't really that any attacks that called it into use; the skill is only used when walking a tightrope or trying to get across a field of churning oil (a Grease spell). How would combat training translate to that which is learned for circus stunts?

I'm willing to bet any skilled swordsman has way above average balance and could walk the rope much easily than Joe McFarmer. Sure, he's not a specialist and as such, probably wouldn't pull it off consistently (even without armor), but he's not your average guy either.

Specialists have Skill Focus, Dex-focus, Skill Mastery, no friggin' Full-Plate and so on; of course the Fighter can't match that (without going Circus himself), but he should have it in class.

[Darcand]

I don't think that's a proper assessment of what the Balance skill plays into. When the game was released, there weren't really that any attacks that called it into use; the skill is only used when walking a tightrope or trying to get across a field of churning oil (a Grease spell). How would combat training translate to that which is learned for circus stunts?

You would be hard pressed to find a professional boxer that hasn't studied dance, just because no matter if you're throwing punches or swinging an axe all of your power comes from balance and leverage.

In one on one encounters (i.e. the party vs the BBEWizard) where the caster is free to dump his entire spell load without worry about what comes next then the caster quickly take the upper hand. The longer an encounter lasts, and the more encounters per day experianced however really begin to eat into a casters effectiveness, whereas the melee classes will continue to maintain. Anytime you have to stop in the middle of storming a castle and go home to take a nap, you lose.

The issue with Casters in general is that they have been "fixed" to the point of being broken. Ages and versions ago their spell lists were extremely limited (the first edition of D&D I owned, a starter set that only went to level 5, had eighteen spells in it) and there were alot of situations that were not covered.

Since then enough people have complained that new spells have slowly been added until, now, there is something to do everything. The Caster classes aren't broken, the spells are, and not so badly that you couldn't fix them with thirty minutes and some white out.

[tiercel]

Strongly Disagree.

Have you played games at 5th level? It's balanced there with ToB otherwise.... not so much. Glitterdust and Stinking cloud end encounters fighter hits things. Wizard now has many defensive options including invisability and flight. By level 7 Wizard can cast Enervation, Polymorph and Black Tentacles. He now overpowers even the ToB fighter.

A standard D&D game kinda assumes that you have multiple real, threatening encounters per day. (I believe 4 is the canonical average number.)

If you give your wizard exactly one fight every day, and especially if you give him as many rounds as he likes to buff beforehand, of course he is going to rock the encounter. Give him enemies always tightly clumped into 10' and 20' spreads, and he is going to rock.

If your wizard has to ration his spells over 4 encounters -- or, more specifically, an *unknown* number of encounters which may be fewer or greater than 4 -- even *occasionally* doesn't have the luxury of prebuffing, and doesn't always face enemies in concentrated clumps, I think you will find that Mr. Wizard doesn't just win everything at levels 5-7.

In my experience, that's why wizards increasingly begin winning more at lvls 9-12 (not only are they getting access to more powerful spells but they are getting *more* spells, enough that they rarely run out, even of their favorite spells, over the course of several encounters) and especially at levels 13+ (when individual spells are becoming increasingly unhinging plus there are so many spells per day that more and more of them can be used on prebuffing and divination).

In my experience, D&D tends to sift out something like:

Lvl 1-4:

Spellcasting is potent but highly rationed -- a given spell may end or at least turn *one* fight, but it's not going to be enough to go around all the fights in a day. Melee classes are soaking up some of the best frontloaded abilities they have.

Multiclassing characters generally haven't even multiclassed (or much) yet.

Lvl 5-8:

Spellcasters get access to increasingly powerful spells and in enough numbers that they can contribute pretty significantly to every fight in a day. Melee types which are well built may be coming into their prime as they enter a PrC or complete some feat tree.

Multiclassing characters (e.g. gish, mystic theurge, etc.) often hate these levels as they are getting over the "worst of both worlds" and barely getting into their PrC.

Lvl 9-12:

Spellcasters now have enough spells that they not only are heavily contributing but can be throwing pretty much at least one significant spell per combat round, not to mention some of their spells change the nature of combat/campaign, moreso than previously possible (e.g. teleport, heal). Melee types are increasingly hard-pressed to match the growing power of full spellcasting, even with a good build/PrCs+equipment, though they can remain quite relevant (with spellcasters using some of their growing spell bounty to buff their meatshield buddies as well as themselves).

Multiclassing PrCs are starting to pay off.

Lvl 13-16:

Spellcasters (multiclass or otherwise) have so many spells they are trying to find ways to burn through them all (swift and immediate action spells, Quicken spell, lots of prebuffing, diivination, etc.) , and spells of sufficient power and scope that melee is not only avoidable but can be fairly readily made completely obsolete. Melee types are heavily dependent upon excellent gear and spell buffs to contribute.

Lvl 17+:

9th level spells shatter all of existence into a whirling vortex of brokenation that sucks your *players* out of their chairs and into oblivion. Epic is never reached not only because of this, but because epic brokenates you so hard that it destroys your campaign *from the future*, never allowing you to reach it.

----

...aside from the mild hyperbole in the last segment, I find in practice that while "spellcasters win" does eventually happen with increasing levels in D&D, it generally takes longer in practice in a reasonable campaign than it does in the confines of message board discussions or single fight-per-day thought experiments or PvP death matches.

[Deepblue706]

I'm willing to bet any skilled swordsman has way above average balance and could walk the rope much easily than Joe McFarmer. Sure, he's not a specialist and as such, probably wouldn't pull it off consistently (even without armor), but he's not your average guy either.

Specialists have Skill Focus, Dex-focus, Skill Mastery, no friggin' Full-Plate and so on; of course the Fighter can't match that (without going Circus himself), but he should have it in class.

Really? Although footwork can be a vital part of melee combat, I'm hard pressed to see a Fighter being better-suited to walking a rope any better than anyone else of equal Dexterity. It just strikes me as a sort of specialist skill, from the standpoint is was originally introduced, at least.

Perhaps the "updated" Fighter (*ahem* Warblade) is deserving of it because of how with later supplements Balance was given more use than "Avoid Falling on Grease, also, walk ropes", but if your game lacks those supplements, then do you really need it? I don't see how knowing your footing on solid ground should automatically prepare you for situations where the ground beneath you is now a field of oil, or shifting due to an earthquake, etc.

I suppose I understand the aesthetic appeal of being just badass enough to get out of those situations anyway. Although, nothing has suggested to me that a Fighter really ought to be capable of that on the basis of being a warrior alone, or even a PC one at that.

You would be hard pressed to find a professional boxer that hasn't studied dance, just because no matter if you're throwing punches or swinging an axe all of your power comes from balance and leverage.

Then should a Fighter get Perform (Dance) as a class skill, too? And should it give combat benefits? Also, the first sentence of Balance's description: "You can walk on a precarious surface." It says nothing like "You can keep your footing wherever you are, whatever is happening."

In one on one encounters (i.e. the party vs the BBEWizard) where the caster is free to dump his entire spell load without worry about what comes next then the caster quickly take the upper hand. The longer an encounter lasts, and the more encounters per day experianced however really begin to eat into a casters effectiveness, whereas the melee classes will continue to maintain. Anytime you have to stop in the middle of storming a castle and go home to take a nap, you lose.

The issue with Casters in general is that they have been "fixed" to the point of being broken. Ages and versions ago their spell lists were extremely limited (the first edition of D&D I owned, a starter set that only went to level 5, had eighteen spells in it) and there were alot of situations that were not covered.

Since then enough people have complained that new spells have slowly been added until, now, there is something to do everything. The Caster classes aren't broken, the spells are, and not so badly that you couldn't fix them with thirty minutes and some white out.

I wouldn't say it's "the spells", but rather "a few spells". And when I say "a few spells" I mean a few that are exploitable, but not terribly powerful under all circumstances. Although, I believe it's a poor idea to let those circumstances be limited only by a guess at what opportunities DMs would provide in their campaigns, so the statement that something is broken is still accurate.

I try my hardest not to ban material outright, but instead control the game through ways the RAW doesn't really address: limitations like time constraints to prevent constant divination, gathering of information and preparation of optimal magics. Keeping polymorph selections to known creatures (as in, having encountered them or made appropriate knowledge checks, etc) is another thing I stick to.

I also always use a wide variety of monsters (I mean I look for excuses to have the players encounter something different). It increases the chances of spellcasters being unprepared for the fight; which gives non-casters more of a chance to shine, as I see it. Not that preparation isn't good for everyone, but, it often keeps Wizards from saying "Oh, good thing I have Kill That Monster prepared.", and instead they have to rely on the Really Annoy That Monster they prepared. The Fighter may never get all of the thunder, but instead everyone tends to be doing something cool-enough.

Various quantities of various enemies within a single encounter also seem to help with that. Although I try not to give the players something like "A Gelatinous Cube, a Rust Monster, a Mummy and Five Grizzly Bears are all hanging out in a room playing cards..." I find you can keep an individual from dominating the whole combat if various abilities are required to be applied simultaneously in order to win. I'd say magic still wins out in such a game, but Wizardly Folk get to bespell their easy targets, Divine Chums can shout "I Smite Thee" at something, Sword Guys get to hit things with a really cool Sword, and Roguely Fellows can stab something or use a scroll, or disarm the Cloudkill trap that triggers when the last Bear dies.

[Saph]

Various quantities of various enemies within a single encounter also seem to help with that. Although I try not to give the players something like "A Gelatinous Cube, a Rust Monster, a Mummy and a Grizzly Bear are all hanging out in a room playing cards..."

Oh, why not? If your players are going for optimised builds you might as well have fun with it.

The first encounter the party ran into in the Test of Spite Monkening challenge was: two arrow demons (ugly green things from the Abyss. With arrows.) one glitterfire living spell (mindless ooze that causes things to glitter and explode by running over them) and a dread blossom swarm (flying, poisonous, killer rosebushes.)

I didn't even try and explain what they were doing there, but the players didn't ask. :P

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I don't need to know why things are there, I just need to know how to kill them.

With fire.

And lots of it.

[Deepblue706]

Oh, why not? If your players are going for optimised builds you might as well have fun with it.

The first encounter the party ran into in the Test of Spite Monkening challenge was: two arrow demons (ugly green things from the Abyss. With arrows.) one glitterfire living spell (mindless ooze that causes things to glitter and explode by running over them) and a dread blossom swarm (flying, poisonous, killer rosebushes.)

I didn't even try and explain what they were doing there, but the players didn't ask. :P

Wow.

Well, generally my games don't involve optimizing players. However, the principle keeps away some incidental overshadowing.

If it were strictly a question of absolute optimization, then I'd have no qualms about it. Or, if it's a Mad Wizard's den. That's a fun one to do.