Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

[Brainfart]

Is there any documented or implied use of mounted use of polearms (not including lances and spears) in Europe? I know the Chinese used glaives on horseback, but I can't find any references to European horsemen using such weapons.

I'm unable to get my hands on copies or images of most of the treatises, so that's pretty much out of the question. I'd thought to check Le Jeu de la Hache, but my French is practically nonexistent and I can't get my hands on images of it anyway.

While searching, I did come across references to a 'Warbrand' polearm/sword thing in the Maciejowski Bible. The problem is that calling it a polearm might be really stretching the term, since it looks a lot like a scaled-up kitchen knife.

[Galloglaich]

I'm pretty sure there are HEMA groups in the Boston area, I'll look into it and get back to you.

Meanwhile, a bit more about HEMA, where it comes from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histori...n_Martial_Arts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_school_of_fencing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_school_of_fencing

G.

[Matthew]

While searching, I did come across references to a 'Warbrand' polearm/sword thing in the Maciejowski Bible. The problem is that calling it a polearm might be really stretching the term, since it looks a lot like a scaled-up kitchen knife.

Well, then you get into the whole "what is a pole-arm?" question and we are slap bang back into the minefield of weapon nomenclature. The weapon in question is basically a short hafted glaive (and to illustrate the hazards of weapon nomenclature, it is probably worth mentioning that "glaive" in medieval French could be used to mean "sword", typically in poetry, or "spear"), but note the frequent depictions of long handled battle axes being wielded two handed from horseback in the same source material. That said, if we have to fall back on "near pole-arms" then there probably is no real evidence for "true pole-arms" wielded from horseback.

[Fhaolan]

Is there any documented or implied use of mounted use of polearms (not including lances and spears) in Europe? I know the Chinese used glaives on horseback, but I can't find any references to European horsemen using such weapons.

I'm unable to get my hands on copies or images of most of the treatises, so that's pretty much out of the question. I'd thought to check Le Jeu de la Hache, but my French is practically nonexistent and I can't get my hands on images of it anyway.

While searching, I did come across references to a 'Warbrand' polearm/sword thing in the Maciejowski Bible. The problem is that calling it a polearm might be really stretching the term, since it looks a lot like a scaled-up kitchen knife.

Not as such. The use of glaives on horseback seems to be limited to China, Japan, etc. Not sure exactly why though.

Mind you, as Michael says you can fall into the weapon terminology trap on this one. For example, are spetums and ranseurs really and truely polearms, or are they really fancy spears with party tricks?

And the Maciejowski bible is a scary place to get weapon information from. It's chock-full of WTF stuff that nobody's found physical versions of, and illustrations of weapons being used in ways nobody else does. You get the feeling the original illustrators were a little enthusiastic about their work and not quite as connected to reality as you might wish.

[fusilier]

Re-enacting is cool if you want to learn how people dressed and equipped themeselves in ancient times, but again, you won't learn actual weapon based martial arts systems.

I don't know which reenactment groups you've seen, but my circa 1600 Spanish Colonial group absolutely teaches actual weapon based martial arts systems! Admittedly, it is only one piece of reenacting, but we consider it to be an important one. Although our group doesn't meet often enough for us to become terribly proficient with sword drill, we learn the basics and can provide them for demonstration purposes. Our pike drill is a little better, but we lack enough members to actually stage a battle. Currently we only have one musketeer, but he is more than capable of showing off the vagrancies of a matchlock musket. ;-)

That said, if you want to spar with people then you need to look for something like ARMA or HEMA. Any good reenactment group should have someone who can teach you the basics, but they won't necessarily have the equipment for sparring. I have read about English Civil War reenactors recreating pike combat, but as in the SCA rules had to be invented for taking casualties.

I suspect there will be a lot of cross-over too. You can probably find people at an SCA event who belong to one of the ARMA groups and vice-versa.

[Galloglaich]

I don't know which reenactment groups you've seen, but my circa 1600 Spanish Colonial group absolutely teaches actual weapon based martial arts systems! Admittedly, it is only one piece of reenacting, but we consider it to be an important one. Although our group doesn't meet often enough for us to become terribly proficient with sword drill, we learn the basics and can provide them for demonstration purposes.

What is the source of your individual weapon training? Are you studying a particular master or period fencing manual?

Our pike drill is a little better, but we lack enough members to actually stage a battle. Currently we only have one musketeer, but he is more than capable of showing off the vagrancies of a matchlock musket. ;-)

Pike drill is part of group combat, something re-enactors can do very well, this isn't really martial arts per se though, it's more like military simulation. I personally enjoy seeing re-enactor groups do pike drill and love the old black podwer firearms etc. My only point is that learning about individual fencing or fighting is a little different from learning about dressing and marching and drilling like ancient soldiers. Most HEMA people I know have no interest in dressing up in period kit and most re-enactors I know have little interest in martial arts. But there are exceptoins.

That said, if you want to spar with people then you need to look for something like ARMA or HEMA. Any good reenactment group should have someone who can teach you the basics, but they won't necessarily have the equipment for sparring. I have read about English Civil War reenactors recreating pike combat, but as in the SCA rules had to be invented for taking casualties.

Nothing wrong with group combat and drill like I said, it's just not usually very integrated with actual martial arts for a variety of reasons, perhaps the main one is due to the danger of doing realistic sparring with period kit (i.e. without fencing masks or protective gloves) though some groups do a pretty good job. I've seen some Viking re-enactor groups who do quite convincing looking live steel combat which doesn't look choreographed, though I have no idea what it's based on. But they are still playing it safe to a large extent.

I suspect there will be a lot of cross-over too. You can probably find people at an SCA event who belong to one of the ARMA groups and vice-versa.

Keep in mind ARMA is just one of many HEMA groups... ;) It's kind of like you guys keep saying "Chevrolet" instead of "Car"

There is a little crossover between HEMA / WMA and re-enactors, but not very much, not anywhere near as much as you might think considering how similar their interests seem to be on a superficial level.

I know SCA has been experimenting a little with some I.33 (a sword and buckler manual) to try to adapt some real stuff into their heavy combat, but I think that is a little problematic due to all their rules, politics, equipment requirements etc. The SCA rapier people were actually involved in the early revival of HEMA and some of them are seriously studying ancient masters, but they are a tiny subset of the SCA.

There are also many of the more hard core type of re-enactor groups in Europe, like The Company of St. George, who do at least some real HEMA training, usually based on Talhoffer. But that isn't usually the real focus of re-enacting like I said originally and not usualy practiced seriously. Learning to do European martial arts is every bit as demanding as learning to do karate or muy thai, it takes a lot of time and effort to really get anywhere with it, (as does re-enacting), which perhaps makes the two activities compete for peoples limited time and budgets and therefore kind of cancel each other out... I also think perhaps also each usually appeals to a slightly different mindset. More so here in the US than in Europe.

G.

[Galloglaich]

I wrote a rant about the relationship between the two groups here. Don't click if candid language offends you. http://para-cynic.livejournal.com/18247.html

That is an hilarious rant.

G.

[fusilier]

What is the source of your individual weapon training? Are you studying a particular master or period fencing manual?

I would have to check with the Cabo to find out the particular manual, but I think he mentioned that it was a late 15th century Spanish manual that he had discovered. I would say that it's for cut-and-thrust swords, and not rapiers -- although fundamentals are all we ever get to (seven strikes and seven parries). It should be remembered that we typically portray militia, so our focus on are military forms, and that rapiers weren't really considered appropriate martial weapons (although opinion was divided). I've always wanted to get some more instruction from our Cabo, but real-life tends to get in the way.

I'm in charge of the Pike Drill and we use De Gheyn's manual combined with some information compiled into a manuscript for local reenactors around 1990; which includes some tactics and Spanish commands, gleaned from a variety of sources. Yes, mass formations aren't what most people consider "martial arts," although something like pikes probably starts to blur the line a little.

I'll be the first to tell you that we're not perfect, because a lot of information is simply lost or missing, but we try. As for reenacting, this time period is kind of a black hole, so it's hard to find appropriate replica clothing and equipment.

[Thane of Fife]

I was recently looking up a weapon called a 'Sang Kauw.' I am, however, unable to find any actual pictures or videos of one, only written references (though I've found a number of those). I believe that the idea of the weapon is sort of a double-sided spear with some sort of guard near the center - you can see a description and sketch here (it's near the bottom right in the picture). Anyway, my question is, is this actually a real weapon?

I feel like there might have been a photograph in George Cameron Stone's book, but I can't quite recall for sure. Anybody have any evidence one way or the other?

[Fhaolan]

I was recently looking up a weapon called a 'Sang Kauw.' I am, however, unable to find any actual pictures or videos of one, only written references (though I've found a number of those). I believe that the idea of the weapon is sort of a double-sided spear with some sort of guard near the center - you can see a description and sketch here (it's near the bottom right in the picture). Anyway, my question is, is this actually a real weapon?

I feel like there might have been a photograph in George Cameron Stone's book, but I can't quite recall for sure. Anybody have any evidence one way or the other?

Due to the unfortunate necessity to 'romanize' Chinese characters names like that tend to be wrong, and once it's wrong in an RPG book every follow-on RPG will copy that same mistake (because they all canabalize each other rather than attempt original research which is usually too expensive to justify). Given that RPG stuff is very popular on the web, looking it up on a web with an incorrect name will just return a bunch of RPG sites, unfortunately. :)

The double-headed Chinese spear is normally called Shuang Tou Qiang. (Shaung is 'double', Tou is 'head', and Qiang is 'spear'. Pretty literal.) However, the double-headed spears I've seen don't really match the illustration as they don't have the crescent blade in the center. I have seen a similar crescent blade, however, on the Chinese halberd, also known as a Ji, but the crescent blade is at one end near the spear point rather than in the middle. There are double Ji's (Shaung Ji), with two crescent blades and two spear points. Put a hook on the long end of the regular Ji, and you have the original form of the Shaung Ji Gou, which eventually became the martial-arts hook sword now called Shaunggou (and likely where the Sang Kauw name got confused from). So it's not really that big of a jump to have just one crescent blade centered on the pole with spear points at either end. It's probably called something like Shaung Ji Qiang, but just as likely is called Bob, given how weapon naming works. :)

[Mr White]

I'm still playing an interactive history (see a few pages back) about Europe and North-Africa right after Waterloo.

The year is somewhere between 1815 and 1820 (I can't access that forum right now). What were the known coastal (naval?) fortification at that time? I'm asking this specifically with harbours in mind as well as the straight of Gibraltar.

Thanks in advance

[Thane of Fife]

Thank you, Fhaolan, that's a big help.

The year is somewhere between 1815 and 1820 (I can't access that forum right now). What were the known coastal (naval?) fortification at that time? I'm asking this specifically with harbours in mind as well as the straight of Gibraltar.

Are you looking for general defenses, which could be used anywhere, or defenses of specific harbors?

In general, batteries of guns either on shore or on gunboats would have been used.

[Storm Bringer]

defenses were based on cannons, naturally enough.

Martello towers were a coastal defense built in england during the Nepoleonic wars, and often found covering small british harbours in the Empire as well as england proper, but most costal forts were built along vauban line i.e. as star forts. Fort George, near inverness, was a example of a large scale fort built to cover the entrance to Loch Ness and the Great Glen. It's rather grand to protect most harbours, but is an okay example.

to protect your average small fishing harbour, you'd be looking at something like one or two small forts with a dozen or so heavy (32pndr) cannon, sited to cover the main channel, and built to withstand heavy cannon-fire form the sea and a infantry assault form the landward side, and manned by local milita.

how big is the harbour we are talking about?

[Matthew]

ChunkerLubber54?

[Mr White]

I'm talking about Caïro itself (I play as the wãli of Egypt) or more ideally the Nyle delta itself without hampering the trade to much.

The Ottoman empire (of which I'm a part of) has just launched an attack on Malta and is planning on taking Gibraltar with the help of the French. I'm expecting dire repercussions of which I may be on the receiving end of.

[Storm Bringer]

Cairo proper would be fairly safe form a naval attack, mainly due to it being so far downstream.however, invading Egypt form the sea would involve attacks into the Nile Delta, which is a bad place to try and defend with forts. your defense would likey be based on shallow draft gunboats, fighting the heavier ships by staying in the shallows and sniping form outside their arcs.

actual amphibious assault on a major city would be exceedingly hard. your big ships can't get to close to shore based guns (because the latter is effectively invulnerable to anything other than a direct hit on the gun. you can churn up the ground around it, but it won't effect the gunners. plus, shore guns can use Hot Shot, which is an absolute ship-killer). trying to land troops on a beach covered by cannon is a exercise in suicide. you'd make Omaha beach look like a picnic. so any seaborne attack is going to land on a out of the way beach.

the trick then is to separate the army form it's seaborne supply lines. check out Napoleon's invasion of Egypt for a historical, near-period version of what might happen.

[Mike_G]

I'm talking about Caïro itself (I play as the wãli of Egypt) or more ideally the Nyle delta itself without hampering the trade to much.

The Ottoman empire (of which I'm a part of) has just launched an attack on Malta and is planning on taking Gibraltar with the help of the French. I'm expecting dire repercussions of which I may be on the receiving end of.

The Battle of the Nile was fought just off the coast of Egypt. Admittedly a bit early, in 1798, but worth checking out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Nile

The article does discuss forts protecting the bay.

[Mr White]

Thanks for the info given so far. I actually read that wiki article on the battle of the Nile a few weeks ago when I was brushing up on sailing tactics. I better check it out again with a more emphasis on the existing defenses as well as Napoleons campaign in Egypt.

Would it be possible for the Brits to cut Caïro off from the sea by obstructing the sailing lanes on the Nile(delta) by delibaratly sinking ships? Or is this plan inviable?
I'm trying to find alternative ways off attacks or assaults so that I can protect myself from to as best as possible.

[Storm Bringer]

blockade of the Egyptian coast is possible, though would require a very large british effort, mostly lighter elements (fifth rate or below), running standing patrols over the main shipping channels, and a few sweeps along the coast to catch anything trying to land at other sites. they'd likey be a few heavier ships kicking about, just in case, but it really depends on how much of the flak form the matla/Gibraltar ops lands on you, rather than your nominal overlords. how deep in this plot are you? if the main effort came form instanbul, then that would likey be wear the fallout lands.

[Mr White]

I have never attacked the Brits openly but that hasn't stopped them before to make me the subject of an attack of opportunity.
Secondly Britains economy is in dire need of cotton (both America and I refuse to trade with GB ATM). GB might see the attack from the Ottomans as the perfect excuse to forcefully get there hands on some cotton.

So far the most cost/effective method I could find to defend my harbours and as much trade as possible would be the fortification (in depth) of at least 1 lane from the first harbour on the Nile up to the med.
I don't believe the Brits will actualy invade they're much to busy in the war with America but they can spare at least some of there navy (which would no doubt be stronger than mine).

[Storm Bringer]

I have never attacked the Brits openly but that hasn't stopped them before to make me the subject of an attack of opportunity.
Secondly Britains economy is in dire need of cotton (both America and I refuse to trade with GB ATM). GB might see the attack from the Ottomans as the perfect excuse to forcefully get there hands on some cotton.

So far the most cost/effective method I could find to defend my harbours and as much trade as possible would be the fortification (in depth) of at least 1 lane from the first harbour on the Nile up to the med.
I don't believe the Brits will actualy invade they're much to busy in the war with America but they can spare at least some of there navy (which would no doubt be stronger than mine).

understatment of the century.

the Royal navy in 1820 is argubly the premier blue sea navy, without any peer in full on warfare. the yanks gave them a good try with thier heavy firgates, but they can;t match the british 74s in a slogging match.

for sheer cost effectivness, the best way to defend the nile would be gunboats in the delta, with a larger fort futher downstream as a backstop. the gunboats could make life hazardous for anything smaller than a line of battleship, and they could be deployed to hotspots with a few covering other exits, making better use of the same number of cannon and men. without deploying a major ground force, they can't break into the intreior or even threaten the coastal ports like alexandria. an navy only force could land marines (every rated ship has been a platoon and a companys worth of marines, though platoons as a formation level don't exist yet) for raids, but they'd lack the cannon and training for set piece battles, so would be a annoyance rather than a major threat. their bigger threat is in taking merchant shipping as prizes, which will leave you without cash flow as the exports are either on thier way to birtain as spoils of war or sat rotting on the docks.


if all else fails, surrender and negoicate in bad faith. it's what the ottomans did all the time.

[HenryHankovitch]

So here's one for you guys:

In James Clavell's Tai-Pan, he makes repeated reference to the "fighting iron," a melee weapon similar to a flail or chained whip:

Struan picked up the fighting iron and swung it aimlessly. it was a linked iron whip, a deadly weapon at close range--three foot-long iron shafts linked together, and at the very end a barbed iron ball. The short, iron haft fitted neatly into the hand and a protective leather thong slipped over the wrist.

The book is set in the 1840s, in what would become Hong Kong, and the weapons are depicted being used by European and Asian sailors. A similar weapon shows up in Neal Stephenson's Baroque Cycle, where Yevgeny the Raskolnik shows up with something similar attached to his wrist:

For [his arm] had been severed below the elbow and replaced with a three-part flail, segments made of some sort of dark, heavy-looking wood, bound and capped with iron, and joined one to the next by short segments of chain.

Now, Stephenson I can entirely believe would make something like this up--or use a poorly-researched idea he picked up somewhere else--simply because it seemed cool. But Clavell seems good enough about historical detail that I wouldn't think he would make something like this up out of whole cloth. Especially as often as he mentions them; his characters are carrying them around all the time, and a couple of them fight a duel with those "fighting irons."

The internet, it seems, has no information on this weapon aside from Tai-pan references, though some guy on the intarwebs claims to have seen something similar in a fencing manual.

So what do you guys think? Complete fabrication? A sort of misunderstood/misapplied version of a Chinese chain whip or "morning star" flail? Or an actual historical weapon that nobody mentions because only dirty, low-class sailors ever fought with it?

[Fhaolan]

So what do you guys think? Complete fabrication? A sort of misunderstood/misapplied version of a Chinese chain whip or "morning star" flail? Or an actual historical weapon that nobody mentions because only dirty, low-class sailors ever fought with it?

Stephenson's version is likely just an extension of the Chinese three-part-staff, but Clavell's version is... odd. I've never heard of the nunchaku or the three-part-staff ever being made of iron bars rather than wood, and I've not seen a european flail with segmented foot-long bars.

Not to say that it didn't exist, just that I've not run into anything that I would recognize with that description. And with the idea that this is a common sailor's weapon... I'm just not sure.

If it did exist, it would be very heavy, unless the 'iron bars' were relatively thin.

[Raum]

There were enough flail variations that what you describe isn't unlikely, but I'm not aware of specific evidence. Perhaps someone else has relevant links.

However, the second issue of attaching a flail in place of a severed forearm is unlikely. Flail weapons typically rely on rotation speed to cause damage. That will be difficult to acquire without a wrist...

[MickJay]

This reminds me a bit of a weapon that some members of the French Assembly decided to carry during the disturbances of the late 1840's. Tocqueville describes it as a lead ball attached to a leather strap, which was in turn tied to the wrist. It was small enough to remain completely hidden in the sleeve and was thought to be (by its owners, at least) a fairly dangerous weapon.

[Mr White]

the Royal navy in 1820 is argubly the premier blue sea navy, without any peer in full on warfare.

I'm well aware of that fact. The fact is however that the Navy is so scattered at the moment (due to a wars on multyple fronts) that they'll hopefully have trouble really using there prowess to the fullest.

for sheer cost effectivness, the best way to defend the nile would be gunboats in the delta, with a larger fort futher downstream as a backstop. the gunboats could make life hazardous for anything smaller than a line of battleship ...

How would obstacles in the water work? There are plenty of places in the world that use guides for merchant ships to reach the harbour. I've also read about blockin ports by sinking ships at strategic places. It could even work wonderful with gunboats at those chokepoints in the Nile.

their bigger threat is in taking merchant shipping as prizes, which will leave you without cash flow as the exports are either on thier way to birtain as spoils of war or sat rotting on the docks.

The Brits can destroy my trade in the Med, there's nothing I can do against that. So I want to focus on presurving my facilities and my resources in Egypt.

if all else fails, surrender and negoicate in bad faith. it's what the ottomans did all the time.

I've been doing nothing else since the beginning of this IH.

[fusilier]

In an emergency you can sink old merchant vessels in the river to prevent an enemy fleet from getting too close. This was successful during the Siege of Sevastopol. Gunboats and shore batteries can then be placed to harry any attempts to clear the obstacles. If you wanted to create general obstacles, then sinking old ships, or placing underwater barriers at various places along the river could be used to snag unsuspecting warships. However, experienced pilots would be necessary for any large ship (war or merchant) navigating the river, and they can be bribed by an enemy. Completely blocking the river with barriers can only be a temporary solution, as it will cut off all communication along the river.

Ports like Alexandria would be defended by traditional fortresses -- which should require investment by land forces to fall. If you are being blockaded, then think about creative solutions like fire-ships to try and cause some havoc. I would also suggest looking into primitive submarines (although the first submarine to actually sink a warship was the Hunley, Fulton designed several submarines during the Napoleonic Wars). These solutions aren't guaranteed to work, but are low cost with a potentially high pay-off, especially if you manage to sink a British ship-of-the-line.

Also consider doing some counter raiding yourself. Small xebecs and the like can be used to go after light merchant ships, and can then be put into minor ports along the coast. Again, authorizing privateers is cheap, and while they may not make any major difference by plundering small cargo vessels - historically the British public seemed to have no patience for that kind of stuff.

The point is to get the British to agree to peace on more congenial terms -- try to make an ancillary war against Egypt just too much of a nuisance.

Finally seek alliances with powerful continental nations. An alliance with France might make the British think twice before going to war with Egypt -- on the other hand France might cause some wars that Egypt isn't prepared for.

[Dervag]

Also consider doing some counter raiding yourself. Small xebecs and the like can be used to go after light merchant ships, and can then be put into minor ports along the coast. Again, authorizing privateers is cheap, and while they may not make any major difference by plundering small cargo vessels - historically the British public seemed to have no patience for that kind of stuff.

The point is to get the British to agree to peace on more congenial terms -- try to make an ancillary war against Egypt just too much of a nuisance.

Worked for the Barbary corsair states...

[Storm Bringer]

I'm well aware of that fact. The fact is however that the Navy is so scattered at the moment (due to a wars on multyple fronts) that they'll hopefully have trouble really using there prowess to the fullest.

hopefully.

How would obstacles in the water work? There are plenty of places in the world that use guides for merchant ships to reach the harbour. I've also read about blockin ports by sinking ships at strategic places. It could even work wonderful with gunboats at those chokepoints in the Nile.

it would be fine as a 'back-up' plan, but the thing is you don't want the Nile to be closed to all shipping, just the royal navy. it'd be a perfectly sensible idea to have a few hulks sat 'on standby', ready to be sited and scuttled if needed, but i wouldn't sink them until you really have to.

a simple thing you can do to make it much harder for a hostile to navigate the delta is to remove (or re-locate) all the channel marking buoys that would be lining the safe routes and have pilots guide everything in. that would mean either they find and bribe a couple to lead them in or they have to plumb the depths and inch foreward, either of which is full of problems.

The Brits can destroy my trade in the Med, there's nothing I can do against that. So I want to focus on preserving my facilities and my resources in Egypt.

well, with the forts on the coast and gunboats in the delta, I'd say they'd need to invest major elements to do more than raid. if thier busy all over the world in bush wars, then they'd likey lack the hulls and men for much more.



I've been doing nothing else since the beginning of this IH.[/QUOTE]

[Mr White]

The point is to get the British to agree to peace on more congenial terms -- try to make an ancillary war against Egypt just too much of a nuisance.

Finally seek alliances with powerful continental nations. An alliance with France might make the British think twice before going to war with Egypt -- on the other hand France might cause some wars that Egypt isn't prepared for.

The problem IS the alliance with France. The Ottoman Empire (of which I'm part of) has allied itself with France and together they have taken it upon themselves to get rid of any British influence in the Med. There was very little I could do about it.

I've also pointed out long ago that we (Franco-Ottoman alliance) should take some easy targets quickly and sue for peace from there. This will probably not happen.
The only thing left is to make the Brits fight at multiple fronts. At least now they listen to me.

Also about scuttling ships in the Nile. The plan was all along to still keep a lane or 2 open for merchant ships.