The Age of the Warriors - a ToB expansion book idea

[JoshuaZ]

Who's still around on this? I've got some energy to devote to it again, but there's a ton to do. If there aren't a bunch of us, we'll need to scale back.

I'm still around but pretty busy. I'll try to help out. (Note also that Narrow Bridge is undergoing some revisions for the higher level maneuvers.)

[DracoDei]

*Raises a claw*

[dspeyer]

Hmm, enough to keep moving, but not enough to crowdsource-parse all the classes...

What would people think of cutting the classes down to the best n (where "best" and n will be defined later)?

[DracoDei]

Sure... we can always add stuff back once we get the first draft done, or if a lot more people show up to the project.

[dspeyer]

I've had a lot less time than I expected, but I did get something up: http://dspeyer.homelinux.org/aow/classes.html

To bring in a class, create a page for it on wikia (copy/paste should mostly work), then edit the class listing to have a "wikia" attribute. Classes this has been done for get the "coverted" tag. The AoW script will auto-linkify any school names mentioned (unless they contain apostrophes, but I'll fix that soon), and make the style kind of srd-ish. I'll add per-class maneuver lists at some point.

I'd originally planned to list names and descriptions, but it just didn't look good. It went on forever, and a lot of the descriptions aren't much more informative than the names.

[dspeyer]

I've fixed the apostrophe bug, added custom maneuver lists (with space for human intervention, since some classes don't have just a list), put in base classes and built a landing page. It's starting to look as if it's coming together! This is an illusion, but it's still pretty cool

[DracoDei]

Are you sure you don't mean a "converted" tag? Rather than "coverted"?

[dspeyer]

Are you sure you don't mean a "converted" tag? Rather than "coverted"?

Yes, "converted". I spelled it right where it counted.

[elliott20]

wow... you guys are amazing. seriously, I totally disappeared and you guys still kept it all going after all of this time. I must admit, you guys put me to shame.

Anyway, the past 2 years have been... well... convoluted. A lot has happened in my personal life that basically destroyed my ability to really dedicate myself to this project.

And as of right now, between a 3 year old daughter, an MBA program, a potential start up on the horizon, and 2 impending moves that will happen within a year of each other, I doubt I'll really be able to give this project the time it deserves.

So thank you all for keeping this alive, you guys rock.

several people have asked me if they can take over the project. I felt that it would be wrong of me to simply say yes without asking you guys first, since you guys have poured so much into this. So I'm putting it out here now. Anyone who wants to get this going again, please assist whoever is doing this wiki.

This effort might just be what we need to make sure that the team roster stays flexible enough to adapt in the face of many of our members' real lives taking over.

[dspeyer]

Welcome back!

We did wear out eventually, but not before putting a fair bit together. It seems dyndns is not co-operating, but you can currently see it at http://68.173.42.244/aow

[elliott20]

Yeah, I saw the wikias you've been putting together. Very nice. I've taken the liberty to just throw together some linking on this wikia page. I figure this might make things easier if new team members were to jump onboard later.

In the mean time, I suggest all interested members start figuring out who is going to spearhead the operation. One guy has PMed me to ask about taking it over. If no one wants to do it, maybe we can give him a try. though, honestly, dspeyer, you've been working so hard on this, you're almost the defacto the admin for this stuff. So maybe it would be a smoother transition if you were to just continue acting as admin for the content. I'll still be around, but as you can see in my previous post, I won't have too much time for it.

In addition, how do you update the wiki you have there? I'm starting to think that the wikia might be able to present an easier entry but it seems like you've already done so much work already on the other article that it's hard to justify quitting that approach either. What do you think, dspeyer?

[DracoDei]

I stopped helping, simply because I found the wiki badly formatted, and also because putting the information in a new form didn't really feel like developing the project.

If the first has been fixed, or is something I don't need to mess with, and their is something that the second doesn't apply to then, by all means, tell me. I might very well do something further to help (well, other than trying to play-test stuff in whatever games I end up in).

[dspeyer]

I've got dyndns restored, alas at a new url: http://dspeyer.dyndns.org/aow/ I realize that my pc and dyndns is far from ideal hosting.

I don't think moving to strictly free-form storage is a good idea. Any changes would need to be made repeatedly, changing the formatting would become a huge job and we'd lose things like per-class maneuver lists and maneuver cards.

Dracodei: can you be more specific about what displeased you?

[DracoDei]

I don't think moving to strictly free-form storage is a good idea. Any changes would need to be made repeatedly, changing the formatting would become a huge job and we'd lose things like per-class maneuver lists and maneuver cards.

Oh, I have no problem with wikis. Also, my father is a retired database programmer, and your formatting was a step toward something good (fields... yes, fields are good).

Dracodei: can you be more specific about what displeased you?

As I recall, some of the fields weren't long enough. Mitigating this problem required shoving some data into an inappropriate field... or something. I don't remember the exact details, only that I talked to someone, perhaps you, about it at the time.

See also: My father is a retired database programmer.

[elliott20]

I agree, just getting moving information around from one place to another is not really making any real progress. What we do need to do now, seeing as we have enough raw materials in terms of classes, baseclasses, and all that stuff, is to hash out the relationship between the various discipline, classes, and what not. I think that's where we were when we sort of stopped. I'll have to dig up the charts we made for this, but I think suffice to say, if we want to make any concrete process on making this come alive beyond just an archive of homebrews, we need to start making them feel real.

also, as said before, a lot of the stuff are incredibly similar fluff wise, but different mechanically, I think we've decided that either things are going to be dropped, or things are going to be related to each other with an in-story justification for it, based on a case by case basis. I think we also started categorizing the different discipline into groups for easy referencing, and I think that's something we should probably bring back into the fold.

so here's my suggestion, all work that happens now will work off of dspeyer's database. I think it's a good idea to have dspeyer be the DBA on this since he seems have a good idea on what he's doing.

Another thing that we haven't touched on yet, but I think will help us, is to start coming up with different martial organizations that uses the material we have thus far. This will also help us figure out what kind of factions we have in place.

However, I also think that we need to start setting parameter limits now. We have enough material to fill out a book as is. We don't need to go insane trying to fill the whole world right now.

So, I suggest here's what we do. Let's take a point in time, a particular region in this time, and focus development on that. The goal here? Create say, 7 major martial arts factions that will become the major players of this region. From here, we will pick our favorites, create the relationships between each group, and off we go. The region? Let's make it an area that has some mountains, running adjacent to some plains, and with maybe two rival cities there. The 7 factions we create will operate primarily out of this region. the time period itself? Let's go for the time RIGHT before Reshar becomes famous and brings it all together, as that was when we had a million schools, and before a lot of them started dying out when Reshar managed to bring it all into the mainstream.

sounds good to everyone?

[DracoDei]

I agree, just getting moving information around from one place to another is not really making any real progress. What we do need to do now, seeing as we have enough raw materials in terms of classes, baseclasses, and all that stuff, is to hash out the relationship between the various discipline, classes, and what not. I think that's where we were when we sort of stopped. I'll have to dig up the charts we made for this, but I think suffice to say, if we want to make any concrete process on making this come alive beyond just an archive of homebrews, we need to start making them feel real.

also, as said before, a lot of the stuff are incredibly similar fluff wise, but different mechanically, I think we've decided that either things are going to be dropped, or things are going to be related to each other with an in-story justification for it, based on a case by case basis. I think we also started categorizing the different discipline into groups for easy referencing, and I think that's something we should probably bring back into the fold.

so here's my suggestion, all work that happens now will work off of dspeyer's database. I think it's a good idea to have dspeyer be the DBA on this since he seems have a good idea on what he's doing.

Another thing that we haven't touched on yet, but I think will help us, is to start coming up with different martial organizations that uses the material we have thus far. This will also help us figure out what kind of factions we have in place.

However, I also think that we need to start setting parameter limits now. We have enough material to fill out a book as is. We don't need to go insane trying to fill the whole world right now.

So, I suggest here's what we do. Let's take a point in time, a particular region in this time, and focus development on that. The goal here? Create say, 7 major martial arts factions that will become the major players of this region. From here, we will pick our favorites, create the relationships between each group, and off we go. The region? Let's make it an area that has some mountains, running adjacent to some plains, and with maybe two rival cities there. The 7 factions we create will operate primarily out of this region. the time period itself? Let's go for the time RIGHT before Reshar becomes famous and brings it all together, as that was when we had a million schools, and before a lot of them started dying out when Reshar managed to bring it all into the mainstream.

sounds good to everyone?

Sounded great right up until you put it before the fall of the temple. At least one of the disciplines (Monkey's Paw, Broken Blade) has fluff that they didn't form during the temples post Reshar existance, or after its fall, so that cuts them right out.

You can still have a blue-zillion schools, since there would still be interest, and with the big dog as far as places to go to find the best high level instruction out of the running, everyone would be scrambling to take the Temple's place... or at least people who escaped the temple trying to set up shop to make a living and keep the traditions alive (not necessarily in that order of importance).

[elliott20]

keep in mind that we're not just focusing on one era and that's it. That's what we're doing now to help start nailing things down, but we can always move to another era later. As such, it's a matter of the team just picking where to start, and going from there.

so, if you would like to start with the era right after the temple's fall, that is fine too. the important thing is the team just start hacking away at it. Even if it doesn't QUITE work, that's okay. We can tweak things as we go as long as we have something to tweak.

[elliott20]

one more thing, where are we using as our primary repository? I want to change my sig to reflect that correct go to place for WIPs, archived materials, and other items.

[DracoDei]

keep in mind that we're not just focusing on one era and that's it. That's what we're doing now to help start nailing things down, but we can always move to another era later. As such, it's a matter of the team just picking where to start, and going from there.

so, if you would like to start with the era right after the temple's fall, that is fine too. the important thing is the team just start hacking away at it. Even if it doesn't QUITE work, that's okay. We can tweak things as we go as long as we have something to tweak.

*scratches his head*
If you meant "you" singular, rather than "you" plural, then doesn't that sorta defeat the purpose of having the focus area you mapped out the boundaries of pretty precisely?

[elliott20]

Well, my main point is that I want to get people to have things kick started again, this time with some clearly defined parameters so we can just proceed in a focused direction. As for what era, I really don't care THAT much. I just want to pick the era that the team feels is most conducive for using most of the material, and at the same time start nailing details down.

As such, I'm up for suggestions. The point is just to HAVE a focus. What that focus is I'm not too concerned about.

Works that have been written up should be given to dspeyer so he can get it into the archives.

[DracoDei]

Right.

Casting my vote (are we even voting?) for Fool's Grip Discipline Completed. IE everything except Way of the Gear (since that would take us into the futuristic era...) is available for players to use*.


*Yes, OBVIOUSLY this is subject to GM discretion and of especial note is that a certain percentage are going to leave Falling Anvil out of it. We know this. I think I can handle creating the storyline tweaks for the versions that include it. In short: If you don't like Falling Anvil, don't sweat it, you don't need to concern yourself with it.





Now then, let me get some stuff started by writing up a bunch of stuff that should be pretty generic within reasonable limits of era (IE as long as the Nine exist we should be good).

Create say, 7 major martial arts factions that will become the major players of this region. From here, we will pick our favorites, create the relationships between each group, and off we go. The region? Let's make it an area that has some mountains, running adjacent to some plains, and with maybe two rival cities there. The 7 factions we create will operate primarily out of this region.

The town (NOT CITY!) of Beauty Creek gets its name from the shallow rapids that are just north of the town. The spray tossed up by the rocks catches the sunlight at certain times of the day, throwing up visually impressive rainbows and fragments. Local laws regarding the size and location of building ensure that the light is not blocked from the "creek" in a way that would reduce its sparkliness. The area's berries are also considered an especial delicacy.

This, combined with various other factors has made it a favored retreat for persons of importance from the nearby major city of __________ (of which it is a client) and at certain times in history (maybe including the current era, maybe not) even some persons from the rival city of ???????????? have been known to show up. The population of the town is actually mostly hobgoblins, although there is a slight/mild/moderate/strong/near-total demographic shift in favor of humans and elves owhen it comes to filling most of the positions that require actual contact with the vacationers in their high class inns and villas. IE, depending on what numbers we go with the town might be 90% hobgoblin, but with only 80% of the contact positions filled by such.

A few years/decades ago random chance conspired such that several (AT LEAST 3) assassination plots succeeded within the town, all/almost all of them using local ex-soldiers and independently trained individuals (such as guards-for-hire and bandits). The army of _________ showed up, certain that a massive plot, or even outright rebellion was brewing in the town. Beauty Creek did not put up a fight, and extensive magic aided investigation(Zone of Truth, Detect Thoughts, and/or Detect Lies, not necessarily anything stronger) revealed that the plots were un-connected, and that the leadership of the town had actually been fairly diligent, especially after the first one.

The Commander of the Occupying forces/Lord of ____________ apologized for the mix-up, and withdrew his/her forces from the client town... but not without promises to return and slay every member of the LOCAL nobility, (down to the tiniest babe in its crib?) if things ever got even CLOSE to out of control as they had before, without even pausing to determine if it was malice, negligence, or incompetence.
One of the measures that the local rulers took to prevent this was that there would BE no more EX-soldiers or independently trained masters of blades. All independent operators were summarily drafted, and carrying WOODEN swords outside the local fortress was declared a death-penalty offense. Drawing a sword for any purpose other than actually fighting (or threatening circumstances.... don't want Quick Draw to become TOO essential) or performing weapon flourishes before first blood was drawn (on at least one side) were ALSO declared death-penalty offenses. Strict regulations on how long visiting VIPs could stay if they brought their own body-guards were also established. All weapon's practice must happen in the fortress.

The local commanders quickly discovered that mixing new troops from different schools was a recipe for disaster, and segregated them out into their previously existing school-groups (but mixed in with regular soldiers, and never with an ex-independant in charge of any group of more than ##). This was further refined to give each school a highly secured area to practice its secret techniques, so they would stop filling complaints about rivals spying on them to learn their secret techniques. These days the leaders of the schools have semi-official status within the military of Beauty Creek and accept applications for initiation from ordinary members of the military who have (at least) made it through the initial training period. Anything (from either direction) before this is strictly forbidden, since it is felt that it might tend to bias the loyalties of the recruits too much away from the official chain of command towards the school's hierarchy. This practice has given the fortress the nickname "Little Temple of the Nine Swords", although the spirits of cooperation between schools and enlightenment are almost entirely absent.

These days set rates for hiring guards from the army, or renting a sparring room in the fortress (non-locals ONLY) have been established. If a sparring partner is needed the two can be combined.

The towns detractors in ___________ still occasionally refer to it as "Traitor's Creek" or "City of Traitors".


((I THINK that covers everything I had in my head so far... what do people think?))

EDIT 12:24 Eastern: added bit about school recruiting within the military.

[dspeyer]

Casting my vote (are we even voting?) for Fool's Grip Discipline Completed. IE everything except Way of the Gear (since that would take us into the futuristic era...) is available for players to use*.

I'm not sure what you're casting for. I will say that I like all our current schools except Way of the Gear, which I don't think fits.

I would be opposed to limiting based on era, because most of what we have would transplant easily, and it's all likely to be distant past for whomever plays it. If we want to shrink what we have, I'd suggest picking a few things we really want and taking the transitive closure.

As for repository, I started moving to appengine. It's clearly better for us than datawiki, even if it gives less scaffolding (which we won't want in the end anyway). It does mean rewriting all the jquery as django, which may take a little work (but makes us crawler-friendly). You can see a bit at http://age-of-warriors.appspot.com/schools

[DracoDei]

I'm not sure what you're casting for. I will say that I like all our current schools except Way of the Gear, which I don't think fits.

I would be opposed to limiting based on era, because most of what we have would transplant easily, and it's all likely to be distant past for whomever plays it. If we want to shrink what we have, I'd suggest picking a few things we really want and taking the transitive closure.

What does "transitive closure" mean?
Ok... we have a rough timeline that can be dervived from the fluff for certain disciplines (and has been by someone, perhaps even you). Elliot20 had said we should focus on a very small area of the setting to get started. I concured with this... however, at the same time, he also proposed a given TIME. I pointed out that that TIME left out Fool's Grip, and maybe Broken Blade. I said I didn't like that (seems a pity to waste perfectly good disciplines due to arbitrarily picking a time slightly too early... Way of the Gear doesn't count since it requires advancing the setting into the space-age and... well I am sure you could fill in a paragraph with why it just isn't a good place to start, even if we DO keep it in). Elliot20 said that was negotiable in some way. I then voted for a later time, in case "voting" was the appropriate way to express my preference. I then proceeded to try to get the ball rolling by creating some fluff for a small town in the setting that Elliot20 suggested, but perhaps explicitly tweaked to the TIME I found preferable (I don't feel like looking it up).

Is that enough detail for you?

As for repository, I started moving to appengine. It's clearly better for us than datawiki, even if it gives less scaffolding (which we won't want in the end anyway). It does mean rewriting all the jquery as django, which may take a little work (but makes us crawler-friendly). You can see a bit at http://age-of-warriors.appspot.com/schools

Smells like a good choice. Will look when I get the chance.

[elliott20]

I like the categorizations. That definitely makes it easier to reference.

dspeyer: my thought process was that we simply start writing stuff. The limitations were all just to serve that one end alone, nothing else. It is not because I want to start throwing stuff out. Rather, I just want to help get things rolling, which dracodei has done with his bit. Thus, in service of that goal, I am open to any suggestions you have.

Personally, while I do agree that it would make things more flexible to not lock the history and lore into time era, I feel that every setting is often heavily shaped by the world events that have transpired. And if we were to write with history in mind, it makes letting everything hang together that much easier. Of course, I will admit that I have not done as many homebrew campaign write ups as others here, so maybe there is a better way of doing things that I'm just not familiar with. In which case, open to suggestions.

again, I just want to restate that my goal is to start establishing settings lore, while retaining all the disciplines. (except Way of Gears, since the fluff is clearly written for a Space Opera game.)

[elliott20]

I am going to make a bold proposition here. We've stated that we want one area to be the center of our attention. We've also stated that we want to start establishing the lore of the setting. So, my suggestion, in an effort to kill two birds with one stone, let us also set that this area is the site of the original temple of nine. Legends will be spoken of how powerful the martial initiators once were when the temple was at it's strongest. After it's fall, a lot of the "quality control" that the original temple provided was lost, and now the two cities have a bunch of different factions trying to gain control.

so I suggest we add the following factions to the list

Remnants of the Nine: These are the loyal disciples of the original temple of nine. They are nowhere near as powerful or as influential as they once were, but they are by far one of the largest groups in the region. They considered the destruction of the temple a stain on their history that they want to rectify.

Sub group to the Remnants of the Nine, the Cult of Reshar: A splinter group of the Remnants of Nine, who believe that Reshar was not just a brilliant man, but a walking god.

De La Vega: The NEW de la vega, as mentioned in this thread earlier, is the progeny of the original de la vega, Reshar's bitter rival. Since then, the De La Vega family has become quite influential over the years. While De La Vega's alliance against the temple of nine failed to last, his progenies did make out very well from the ensuing chaos at the fall of the temple, making them one of the most important families in the area.

[DracoDei]

*Shrugs*
Sure, sounds good.
I don't have any particular insight into the advisability or non-advisability of that other than to say that figuring out how each of the two cities interacted or failed to interact with the Shadow-Tiger Horde might be a key bit of backstory to figure out (just a few sentences worth for each city might be enough to start with... or we could wait for inspiration).

[elliott20]

Actually, for our purposes, a few sentences might be more than plenty. We want the material to give people inspirations and jumping off points.

[DracoDei]

elliot20:
Good point.

dspeyer, initial thoughts on new site follow:
Formatting shows progress.
Should be "Signature Weapons" not "Signiture Weapons" at the top of the disciplines (although I only was looking at mine).
Looks like the maneuvers that got chopped up weird due to length still are. This is to be expected and we can fix it when we have odd moments. I just did "Dust Cloud Melee", since I remembered that that was a really long one and thus a good test-case. Speaking of which could perhaps, IDEALLY use a way to turn the name into the offsite link to tvtropes that I currently have listed as the italicized flavor text. Does HTML or Forum-Code or something work within the fields? (I might think not... might be a hacking vulnerability if it did, but what do I know?). If this does not exist already don't sweat it.

Everyone:
That reminds me, the Dust-Cloud Melee Stance is very weird. I started with a clear idea of what I wanted it to do. I eventually managed to write up mechanics that get the job done (verbose ones, but I do tend in that direction). The thing is I have no particular idea what it is GOOD for from a character-build perspective. Reducing Sneak-Attack damage? Protecting yourself from AoE's? I really have no idea what the considerations that would go through a player's mind of taking it versus not taking it would be.
If people are feeling generous can I get some comments on that?
Reproduced below:

Spoiler

Show

Dust Cloud Melee
Falling Anvil (Stance) [Chaos]
Level: Swordsage 3
Prerequisite: 1 Falling Anvil maneuver, Non-lawful alignment
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Chain of Melee
Target: You and any group of meleeing creatures you are a part of.
Duration: Stance

Select any enemy who is with your threatened area and whose reach (not necessarily threatened area...) you are within. Then select one enemy or ally who is within the reach of you or that enemy, and repeat this process until you are satisfied or you have selected a number of individuals equal to your initiator level (not including yourself). The GM should then select a spot that he judges to be roughly in the middle of the group of all selected creatures (GMs who have the requisite knowledge-base should guesstimate the center of mass of the group). Each individual then takes a 5' step towards that spot unless blocked using whatever modes of movement it is capable of. Repeat the 5' steps until no more such steps can be taken. In no case does such movement count against the distance a creature may move or provoke attacks of opportunity. All individuals in the group cease to threaten any area. Remove all such creatures from the map-board and replace them with a Dust Cloud Melee that takes up all squares that were part of any member creatures space, and any square/cube surrounded by such spaces in at least one plane. For two-D maps this simply means that any set of squares completely surrounded by the spaces of such creatures is also part of the Dust Cloud Melee.
You may not end this stance voluntarily, including by switching to another stance, as long as you are a member of the group.
Creatures in the group may not be attacked by creatures outside the group with melee attacks, and all such ranged attacks target a random member of the group if single target, or every member of the group if it is an AoE whose area contains at least one full square/cube of the Dust Cloud Melee. Members of the group may not use ranged attacks except if they are multi-target or AoE, and may only specify "a random enemy in the group" or "a random ally in the group" when using a melee or touch range effect or attack. Area of effect effects used by members of the group are considered to have all members of the group in their area, and may be centered at any point within the Dust Cloud Melee for purposes of determining if creatures that are NOT a member of the group are effected.
Even though flanking is not possible within the cloud, any person involved in it may add half of any sneak attack dice they get to all damage they deal to others in the group. This does NOT apply to sudden strike or skirmish.
A creature may attempt to exit the Dust Cloud as if it were a grapple. If successful the GM removes a number of squares of the dust cloud equal to the exiting creature's space, and then the person controlling that character places them anywhere adjacent to the remaining dust cloud. If there are no animate creatures still in the cloud, then the stance ends and all corpses/remnants are removed by the above procedure.
A creature that is adjacent to at least 2 squares of the melee may enter it. Remove their piece from the board, and add the squares of their space to the dust cloud.

[Veyr]

De La Vega

Would this happen to be named after a New York City street artist?

[DracoDei]

Well apparently at least br (brackets omited) works in at least some fields.

Also, under "Narrow Bridge" the stance "avoid death's touch" shows up a flaw in your capitalization rules/subroutine/procedure/whatever-it-is since the "s" ends up capitalized. (Also it should probably give a bonus against more than one undead, since Dodge is generally considered to be a very poor feat, and my impression is that stances should be on a par with feats, if not better)... maybe I should PM the author about this?

Note that I DO NOT NECESSARILY expect that the errors I point out will be high-priority, I just believe in being through in documenting stuff as it comes up so that when there is time it can eventually be fixed.

I consider getting the "list maneuvers from multiple disciplines" function working to be a higher priority, for instance.