All D&D 3.5 class tiers

[JaronK]

It depends on what you consider interacting. Several DMs I met consider that just looking at the illusion counts as interacting. Ohers say that noticing that the walls don't block sound or that wind keeps flowing trough them counts as interacting.

Then your DMs are doing it wrong. From the PHB: "Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not recieve saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion. For example, if a party encounters a section of illusory floor, the character in the lead would recieve a saving throw if she stopped and studdied the floor or if she probed the floor."

Interaction means actually touching it or poking it with something. Clearly, "just looking at the illusion" does not count, as that example makes obvious. By RAW, putting a bunch of illusory walls around a golem stops it cold.

Well, that makes the wizard as well drop one tier, as a wizard who doesn't have time to sit down and copy new spells/craft stuff isn't better than a sorceror.

He still gets two or four new spells per level (depending on what feats he took) which is still four or eight new spells per spell level. That's still far more than the Sorcerer... and I'm sure he can find a source of spells eventually (just not right away).

Funny then on how optimizers are always telling people to walk around with several wands and scrolls as backup. Even if you're a fullcaster.

Recommended, but not required by any means. A wand of Knock means you don't have to memorize Knock ever, and can instead have spells like Glitterdust and Alter Self in that slot. But it's not a requirement at all.

Only if you have the free time to craft stuff. Unless you're an artificer and you have that cheesy builder homunculus, but that's pretty broken as hell.

You say broken as hell, I say standard operating procedure for a craftsmen. It's called a dedicated wight by the way, and you put one in a portable hole so it can take care of things. Note however that the standard adventuring day is supposed to be 8 hours, which leaves 8 hours for crafting and 8 for sleeping.

Imperious command demands optimization. An half optimized truenamer can at least buff himself and be a respectable gish.

No. Having UMD alone along with 3/4 BAB and d6 HD does not a respectable gish make. All that money you're spending on consumables? That could be spent on permanent gear. It's the same problem Giacomo has with his Monks, made even worse in this situation.

I don't think April's fool material is really valid. Plus it's an auto-win for the commoner as he can crush all and any enemy under a rain of chickens with quick draw.

There are no rules for crushing people under a rain of chickens, but it's a good way to detect traps, feed people, and create hilarious chicken dive bomber zombies. Hey, at least it's a class feature.

[quote]If he failed to pick good spells this level, what makes you think he'll pick better ones next level? Plus he's still stuck one level shooting crossbows with bad Bab.[/qutoe]

Yeah... I don't see why he's doing this. You're claiming that an "unoptimized" truenamer can be powerful with UMD'd spells. If he's getting those spells, then the same optimization Wizard would be getting equally good spells known. It seems your requirement here is a Truenamer who can't Truename but is optimizing his spell use, but the Wizard is just a complete fool who can't think of anything useful to do. That's not equivalent optimization. If you're comparing him to a Wizard who has totally useless spells such that he just shoots a crossbow, then you should compare that to a Truenamer who uses completely random and useless wands for some reason.

Fair enough, but in that case the truenamer at least still has armor, more HP, +1 skill point and better Bab than the wizard.

Frankly it's such a rediculous situation that it's meaningless, and I don't know why we're considering it. Yes, you can make a Wizard weak by doing nothing with it. But when I say "unoptimized Truenamer" I mean "a competant player who doesn't have access to custom gear or the best available feats. It doesn't mean a raging idiot who can't think of anything. And that's the same thing I mean for a Wizard, though perhaps his best spells are banned. A badly played Wizard is one that uses Fireball every chance he can, not one who fills his entire spell slot allowance with Disguise Elf.

JaronK

[Oslecamo]

Interaction means actually touching it or poking it with something. Clearly, "just looking at the illusion" does not count, as that example makes obvious. By RAW, putting a bunch of illusory walls around a golem stops it cold.

Even then, if the golem was programmed to attack anyone who aproached whitout saying the right word, a wall poping out of nowhere would count as an enemy (it's a foreign object that didn't say the right word). Charge, go trough, now find the beguiller.

He still gets two or four new spells per level (depending on what feats he took) which is still four or eight new spells per spell level. That's still far more than the Sorcerer... and I'm sure he can find a source of spells eventually (just not right away).

Ironically, the sorceror can also learn more spells with feats. And if you're pressed with time, being a spontaneous caster helps a lot, because there's no "return tomorrow with another spells prepared". Problems need to be solved right away.

You say broken as hell, I say standard operating procedure for a craftsmen. It's called a dedicated wight by the way, and you put one in a portable hole so it can take care of things. Note however that the standard adventuring day is supposed to be 8 hours, which leaves 8 hours for crafting and 8 for sleeping.

Don't know about you, but I've never played in a campaign where the DM would allow you to craft magic items in the middle of a dungeon. And nowhere does it say that the adventuring day is 8 hour. The DMG even comments about night ambushes.

No. Having UMD alone along with 3/4 BAB and d6 HD does not a respectable gish make. All that money you're spending on consumables? That could be spent on permanent gear. It's the same problem Giacomo has with his Monks, made even worse in this situation.

I meant making himself a gish with utterations. Since your samurai was using his best class feature, I imagined the truenamer would be allowed to use truenaming. And making the DCs for yourself is easy. Pick the combat buffs. Profit. You're not exactly clericzilla, but can more than do your job.

Using just consumables for buffs won't take you anywhere indeed.

There are no rules for crushing people under a rain of chickens, but it's a good way to detect traps, feed people, and create hilarious chicken dive bomber zombies. Hey, at least it's a class feature.

Actualy it's a commoner only flaw (aka it demans optimization). And there's rules for suffocation. And being crushed by excessive weight if I'm not mistaken. Keep throwing the chickens. Not even the tarrasque will escape.

Frankly it's such a rediculous situation that it's meaningless, and I don't know why we're considering it. Yes, you can make a Wizard weak by doing nothing with it. But when I say "unoptimized Truenamer" I mean "a competant player who doesn't have access to custom gear or the best available feats. It doesn't mean a raging idiot who can't think of anything. And that's the same thing I mean for a Wizard, though perhaps his best spells are banned. A badly played Wizard is one that uses Fireball every chance he can, not one who fills his entire spell slot allowance with Disguise Elf.

Says who? If the party is facing waves of enemies several CR under them, fireball rocks. If you pimp it out with metamagic, fireball rocks. If you're facing the attack of the snow creatures, fireball rocks. That's why the tier system doesn't work very well at all. It assumes people play basicaly like you do, when there's thousands of diferent play styles out there.

[Scorpions__]

Says who? If the party is facing waves of enemies several CR under them, fireball rocks. If you pimp it out with metamagic, fireball rocks. If you're facing the attack of the snow creatures, fireball rocks. That's why the tier system doesn't work very well at all. It assumes people play basicaly like you do, when there's thousands of diferent play styles out there.

Agreed, just because you can optimize, does not mean everyone in your party wants to optimize. You might have players that would honestly rather throw around fireballs than cheese. And sometimes you don't know until you let them play the class.





DM[F]R

[magic9mushroom]

But a blaster wizard is still stronger than a truenamer.

Not so sure about that. Reversed Empowered Quickened X Words of Nurturing upgraded to ignore SR can be nasty. Of course, this means you're adding +35 to the Truespeak DC.

[Kantolin]

Even then, if the golem was programmed to attack anyone who aproached whitout saying the right word, a wall poping out of nowhere would count as an enemy (it's a foreign object that didn't say the right word). Charge, go trough, now find the beguiller.

That then makes wall of force or stone a ridiculously effective tactic against golems (and mindless things), so you might want to watch out before making rulings like that.

Especially since they can't bust the wall down, so they'll have to sit there beating at it until it goes away.

This also means that the beguiler can just make an illusion of a person (or himself) and have it go jog past the golem evading its blows with an ease that anybody would clearly see is magical... but it's a golem. It doesn't see.

[Araeliz]

Can't respect a list that has monk ranked higher than commoner...

[Frosty]

What? Due to Handle Animal?