Civil War... whose side are you on?

[Jibar]

At the moment, Marvel is in the middle of Civil War.
After a supervillain manages to kill a large number of civilians during a failed mission, the government tries to pass the Superhero Regeistration Act. But the superhero community is torn in two by this decision.
Tony Stark a.k.a Iron Man is a firm supporter of the act, and has been elected to help enforce it.
Captain America has ended up leading the opposition against Stark, and many heroes have flocked to his banner.
Spider-man is stuck right in the middle, torn between his already support of the act by revealing himself, and the fact that he is being brought into conflict with his hero and mentor Caps.

So whose side are you on?

[Tiberian]

I definately support Cap, Iron Man is pissing me off. I really like Spider-Man's arguement in the "Mr. Parker goes to Washington" arc. And, based on that arguement, Spidey agrees with Cap, but is duty-bound to Tony.

[tape_measure]

sounds liek another Genosha* to me. Rather the same principle. of course, this is spurrned from my hatred of organized religions and authorities on a whole.

Damn the Man! Save the Empire!

(*That is the right idea I had, yes?Small islands whre mutants were kept until magneto blasted teh crap out of it and took it over to form a free land for all mutantkind. Sorry, it's been a while.)

[Dhavaer]

I'd like to destroy Cap, but that's nothing to do with civil war. I support his cause in this case, however.

[Jack_Banzai]

Yet another reason to read Watchmen. After the Keene Act is passed, all of the super heroes are forced to either retire or unmask before Congress and anonymous masked vigilantism is once again made illegal. The social ramifications of the rise and fall of the mysteryman in the Watchmen universe is interesting to say the least.

[Tiberian]

I just finished Watchmen, it was very good. * I think that's an understatement*. I drew many parallels with Wild Cards and the Civil War from it.

[Jerthanis]

I've gotta say, I'm with Spidey on this one. The merits of super hero registration could enable the efforts of superheroes to be spread to the locations they're most needed, so LA and Detroit would get some of New York's excess Superheros (seriously, exactly how many superheroes operate out of New York or the New York area?) and as fully deputized members of the law they'd get a salary, freeing them from non-heroic time drains like work and such. So clearly there's plenty of good reasons to support it...

and yet...

It goes against everything it's meant to be a superhero for fifty years. To be a superhero was to be like a god. Worshiped, exalted, as much a force of nature as a person. These were the embodiments of free will, the salvation of mankind because they took their incredible powers and instead of using them to push people down, they use them to help people up. If they were to become agents of the government they'd become... one step up from beat cops. People would see "Superhero reimbursement tax" on thier W2s and shout "Damn, why do I gotta pay for those DAMN superheroes?" no one would like superheroes anymore.

Worse than that... Superheroes would become a weapon governments could field in ways previously unimaginable. Anything from spy missions to overt strike forces would be spearheaded by the supers. Whichever government got the most supers working for it would have great power.

...so ultimately I'm against registration, but damn if it isn't a good idea in a lot of ways.

[KayJay]

I think Marvel wants us to root for the underdogs... It seems like noone WANTS the law, they're only really behind it because they are superheroes and are meant to follow the law. Plus people like Iron Man and Mr Fantastic are being painted as pretty callous when they are referring to what needs to be done. Hunting down heroes and arresting them because they want to stay anonymous? I don't really see the good in that. Imagine if all this man-power they're using to enforce a silly law was used to squelch superpowered crime before.... We'd have a utopia.

[shadow_messanger]

i support capt. america and seriously you gotta look at the cost and manpower issues if some masked stay masked, say for example the x-men stays masked they have proven themselves 3 steps ahead of the police in brains, brawn, and tech so to find and fight him could cost the goverment thousands of dollars and a ton of men to win, throw in hulk and caps and you could have beaten doom, venom, carnage, and magneto easily. Otherwords this bill gets past the goverment has a supers riot on there hands.Can you guess the money and men that would lose them ??? cause my calculater doesn't go that high ;D

[Jack_Banzai]

I think Marvel wants us to root for the underdogs... It seems like noone WANTS the law, they're only really behind it because they are superheroes and are meant to follow the law. Plus people like Iron Man and Mr Fantastic are being painted as pretty callous when they are referring to what needs to be done. Hunting down heroes and arresting them because they want to stay anonymous? I don't really see the good in that. Imagine if all this man-power they're using to enforce a silly law was used to squelch superpowered crime before.... We'd have a utopia.

Superpowered utopias sound better than they are. Check out Neil Gaiman's run on Miracleman (if you can afford it!)

If they were to become agents of the government they'd become... one step up from beat cops. People would see "Superhero reimbursement tax" on thier W2s and shout "Damn, why do I gotta pay for those DAMN superheroes?" no one would like superheroes anymore.

Worse than that... Superheroes would become a weapon governments could field in ways previously unimaginable. Anything from spy missions to overt strike forces would be spearheaded by the supers. Whichever government got the most supers working for it would have great power.

...so ultimately I'm against registration, but damn if it isn't a good idea in a lot of ways.

If you haven't already, you MUST read The Ultimates by Bryan Hitch and Mark Millar. Not the animated movie, the book. Particularly the "Grand Theft America" storyline. It paints a very chilling picture indeed. Essentially, The Ultimates (Ultimate version of the Avengers) are formed in order to maintain a government-controlled team of super heroes in order to combat what they call post-human threats. At the outset of the Grand Theft America storyline, however, the Ultimates have crossed the line and have been sent by SHIELD to destroy the nuclear arsenal of a Middle Eastern country, thereby relegating them to a bunch of super-commandos rather than super heroes.

For an entirely different take on super heroes and the government check out Kingdom Come by Alex Ross and Mark Waid.

[Brother_Hood]

I think, personally, the whole thing stinks plotwise. You have characters with 50+ years of background suddenly acting contrary to established personality (Mr Fantastic, anyone? Cap? Iron Man?)

From what I've read writing wise, I'm similarly underwhelmed. They're going to have to work hard to make this more than Crisis Lite.

[Logic]

I think, personally, the whole thing stinks plotwise. You have characters with 50+ years of background suddenly acting contrary to established personality (Mr Fantastic, anyone? Cap? Iron Man?)

From what I've read writing wise, I'm similarly underwhelmed. They're going to have to work hard to make this more than Crisis Lite.

contrary to what you may believe, characters evolve the same as people. honestly ask yourself how much of the last 50- years of comics you have read, and compare that to your supposed knowledge of the major events. it is my opinion that none of the characters are acting contrary, and the only thing i think marvel should have done was keep the names of the heroes private, the same way that the US Gov. has the Privacy Act of 1974. So, spidermans television unmasking was a little stupid to me, but ontherwise i see the whole story arc as potentially uplifting to the whole marvel universe.


EDIT: I am more on Captain America's Side, since the Government has no right to tell people that "If you are gifted, you gotta tell us or go to jail when we find out" Especially people that had no choice in the matter. E.G. Mutants, accidents.....

[Ing]

The real nature of the civil war is not the issues of the two sides, it is the environment that creates the inevitbility of civil war. There is no debate on the issue, that has been made clear, if you are not with the goverment you are agianst them and and are seen as rogue agents. THis was greatly visiualized in Tony's attempt to bully the x-men into support making vieled threats that their protected status could be revoked and reminding them the school is surronded by giant former mutant killing robots. People like TOny have taken the stance that all that stand agianst them have to be elliminated. Its the downgrading of demoncracy in favor of a governing body that exists for the soul purpose of self-perpetuating its existance rather than serving people.

[Beleriphon]

Very true Ing, but you also have to keep in mind that Tony hopes to pressure all to accept this in favour of something much worse. While I certainly don't agree, I understand that perspective. Both Tony and Reed see it the same way, that no matter what something of this nature is inevitable, so its best to sign up now when its easy and doesn't really hurt. The other option is to wait, and then have people come knocking at your door and taking you away.

[Foeofthelance]

I side with Cap and his crew on this one. Making Superheroes culpable for their actions is one thing. Registering them as government agents? It just seems a bad idea for quite a large number of reasons.

Government:
-Now has personal control over heroes
-Will have to deal with the ramifications of Super actions
-Will be unable to protect said identities (Cases in point: Repeated reports of hacking of government mainframes, recent thefts of two Navy laptops carrying cadet personal info, including S.S. numbers, birth information, residency info, etc.)

Supers:
-Now have to deal with government watchdogs. (Why did you chose to throw that particular vehicle? Would not this one have worked better? Next time, we suggest bringing your own vehicle or a rental to a fight for the purposes of throwing.)
-Will have their identities made vulnerable
-Will have no recourse for dealing with villains
-Will be under constant threat of "Use of excessive force" complaints
-Will be responsible for property damage

And these are just the ones I can think of. And now that I'm thinking about it.

"Do you have any idea how much trouble you ould have caused? Flying across international borders, by passing customs, travel without a passport, total violation of immigration laws! That's jjust part of the list!"
"I just have one question. If i wish to travel anywhere in the world, who's going to stop me?" Mark Milton, Supreme Power. Which is also a good book, also about heroes under government control.

Now, for the players themselves:

Cap is standing up for what he believes in. He sees personal rights as being more important then any act of congress, and that includes the right to privacy.

Tony Stark is getting something out of this, though I have yet to decide what. Personal control of the American superhero community seems probable, not to mention the many lucrative contracts for Stark Industries. The political oppurtunities don't seem to be lost on him either.

Reed Richards seems to be less then human lately. It was mentioned in Wolverine: Enemy of the State, when he was discussing bed time habits with Sue. He point blank admitted it wasn't him reading bed time stories, but an AI program he'd devoloped based of of his son's behavior. Ignoring Johnny's beating, and basing his reaction entirely off of statistics, seems just like him.

Spidey...I have no clue. Stark is manipulating him, but he seems to change from book to book. In CW#2 he seemed hesitant about his identity being made public, yet in #3 he seemed almost ecstatic to be beating on Cap. Shall wait to make a determination.

[Steward]

-Will be responsible for property damage

It's about time! I want Tony Stark to pay for my hospital care/automobile repair each time he decides to throw my car into a building. Maybe they'll think twice before voluntarily fighting in a city instead of in space or something.

[Jibar]

Give them a break though, usually it's the villains who start those fights and force them to go to such measures.
I also thought I'd mention that I'm sort of in the middle...by revealing their identities, the government could help protect loved ones and other family, so that the superheroes won't always have to worry about them. But their methods are way off for recruiting, Stark is really going about it the wrong way.

Also thought I'd mention I don't actually read the comics...nowhere around here stocks any of the good stuff...

[Foeofthelance]

Actually, I think the heroes tend to do much more damage to the area then the villians. Most of the villians bring their own weapons to the throw down.

[Jack_Banzai]

You mean you guys have never heard of Damage Control?

[Logic]

wow. i never thought i would see people supporting the government instead of the superheros. after all, its the government's fault gas prices are over 3 dollars a gallon.

[Ing]

wow. i never thought i would see people supporting the government in stead of the superheros. after all, its the government's fault gas prices are over 3 dollars a gallon.

I blame Lex Luthor for stealing pies.

[Jack_Banzai]

wow. i never thought i would see people supporting the government in stead of the superheros. after all, its the government's fault gas prices are over 3 dollars a gallon.

I'm a little surprised as well. Isn't anybody a fan of personal freedom anymore?

[Ing]

I'm a little surprised as well. Isn't anybody a fan of personal freedom anymore?

the goverment says we're not allowed to be fans of personal freedom.

[Jack_Banzai]

the goverment says we're not allowed to be fans of personal freedom.

FREEDOM FOREVER!

As for the Civil War... I have to admit that I'm not sure how they're going to end the series without creating a major rift in the Marvel universe. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Beleriphon]

I personally think that Scarlet Witch will just fix everything, or Magneto will reverse the Earth's magnetic field, then the Infinity Gauntlet will be used backwards/upside down/sidways and fix everything.

[Jack_Banzai]

I personally think that Scarlet Witch will just fix everything, or Magneto will reverse the Earth's magnetic field, then the Infinity Gauntlet will be used backwards/upside down/sidways and fix everything.

Hehe, good one. Made me laugh out loud there. Or maybe Warlock will merge with Magus again and summon the Beyonder for all of the heroes to fight, but the heroes will band together and placate the angry demigod with some Hostess Fruit Pies.

[Smashymcsmash]

Mmmmm... hostess fruit pies

[Steward]

wow. i never thought i would see people supporting the government in stead of the superheros. after all, its the government's fault gas prices are over 3 dollars a gallon.

I don't think that anyone on this thread so far as supported Tony Stark. And, having seen some of Civil War, I can really see why. Tony Stark's idea is a classic example of a 'strawman', designed to be about as unpalatable to the target audience as Galactus's idea to swallow the Earth.

[Ing]

I don't think that anyone on this thread so far as supported Tony Stark. And, having seen some of Civil War, I can really see why. Tony Stark's idea is a classic example of a 'strawman', designed to be about as unpalatable to the target audience as Galactus's idea to swallow the Earth.

HEY HEY HEY HEY HEY HEY HEY

I am behind Galactus's platform 110%

If he does not eat the earth (as proposed in prop. 88b5) then the terrorists win!

[Foeofthelance]

Out of curiosity, does any one else consider Ing's replies to be slightly more humorous due to his choice of Avatar? Or am I simply more insane then previously believed? ;D