Where does it point out where always, often and usually mean in terms of alignment?

**Mystic Muse** · 2010-05-20, 01:34 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Greenish

Glibness doesn't do anything for Diplomacy.

Oh. Don't know why I thought of Glibness.

EDIT: So, how would I pump up my Diplomacy? It's mostly just for this one situation and then I'll suggest to my DM that I put the points and such in a less broken skill or he makes special exceptions for mortal enemies or something.

**Drakevarg** · 2010-05-20, 02:10 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Lix Lorn

Hate to jump in, but can I sig that? XD

Go ahead. Might not be officially accurate, but orphan-power does have comedic value.

**hamishspence** · 2010-05-20, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)

The answer in Libris Mortis was that skeletons, zombies and the like, are animated by nearly mindless, malevolent spirits.

**Drakevarg** · 2010-05-20, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)

But that's considerably less amusing.

**Jayabalard** · 2010-05-20, 02:20 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Kyuubi

The only problem with the D3 is it doesn't exist.

Actually, they do exist, and I'm not talking about a renumbered D6. There was a Dice thread floating around somewhere.

A quick google gave me this: odd sided dice: 3,5,7,9,11,13

**hamishspence** · 2010-05-20, 02:21 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Psycho

But that's considerably less amusing.

There is "Atrocity Calls to Unlife"- which means that when evil deeds are done, undead start appearing in the world (spirits slipping through the cracks in reality caused by those deeds)

If spontaneously animated skeletons/zombies can exist, and if making a thousand orphans cry is an atrocity, then one could say that some skeletons/zombies are created by "the tears of a thousand orphans"

**Yukitsu** · 2010-05-20, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)

I think my DM must be using those rules, because every time my evil character went anywhere, children's toys sprang to life with bloody tears and a horrible vengeance streak. >_>

**Mystic Muse** · 2010-05-20, 11:34 PM (ISO 8601)

Well I'm about to plead my case for a Pyroclastic dragon mount to my DM. How does this sound?

Spoiler

Show

Before you say "But they're always evil" I checked in the Draconomicon and Monster manual. In the monster manual it specifically states that a creature of always x alignment may be a consequence of the plane it lives/is raised on. That definitely applies to Pyroclastic dragons since they are always evil but were not created by an evil god( at least that I can find). The only reason I can find that they're even evil is because they'd have to be to survive in Gehenna. The only reason I can find that they even live there is that they only live in volcanic regions.

**Drakevarg** · 2010-05-20, 11:39 PM (ISO 8601)

What's your DM's viewpoint on alignment anyway? If he's like me and enjoys seeing creatures playing against their standard alignment, it'll be easy. If he's got a hardon for canon, he might be unswayable.

But as for the "needs to be evil to survive on Gehenna"... I think it could work. It IS an entire plane made out of volcano after all. Not a nice place to live. If your dragon is raised outside of that environment it might not be all that hard to render neutral- or even good-aligned.

(Also, I'm officially resisting the urge to glomp you every time I see that avatar. It's painfully kawaii.)

**Mystic Muse** · 2010-05-20, 11:43 PM (ISO 8601)

Lets see, Chromatic dragons are pretty much completely irredeemable, gods can never change alignments and if I see a chromatic dragon, if it ever antagonizes me I should kill it on sight.

I'm a Paladin of Bahamut which may have something to do with that. Unfortunately that's the best I can answer. Never asked my DM about alignment. However, evil is not kill on sight.

and the volcanoes aren't the bad part. That's what they live in. The problem is an entire plane of Yugoloths. (I think Gehenna is the Yugoloth plane. May be wrong about that.)

**Drakevarg** · 2010-05-20, 11:46 PM (ISO 8601)

Well, Pyroclastics aren't Chromatic, so that's not a problem. (Out of curiousity, you should ask your DM if Chromatics are actually irredemable, or does your religion simply forbid attempting to do so on account of the major bug Bahamut has up his ass about Tiamat's kids?) Chromatics are evil out of imbred nature given by their goddess, however, while Pyroclastics are, as you say, probably evil out of necessity from living on an evil-aligned plane made out of volcano.

Edit-Ninja'd:

No, the fact that it's a volcano isn't a problem. It's that evil things like the scenery and have an annoying habit of loitering outside the dragon's house.

**Mystic Muse** · 2010-05-20, 11:49 PM (ISO 8601)

I believe just very very hard. Not sure if Bahamut has a personal problem. I'll ask although I don't expect a reply any time soon.

Any other problems or things I need to ask?

**Serpentine** · 2010-05-21, 12:37 AM (ISO 8601)

I made this:

**Drakevarg** · 2010-05-21, 12:40 AM (ISO 8601)

Interesting. I'd disagree personally, but I make it a large part of my schtick in DnD to subvert alignment assumptions, so I'm not one to talk. For most people it's probably a fairly apt setup.

**Serpentine** · 2010-05-21, 12:53 AM (ISO 8601)

This is sort of a normal-world-without-PCs sort of a guide. In actual games, you're more likely to come across and/or notice the ones that are at the opposite end to their expected alignment or on the morality axis than the ones only one step away or on the ethical axis. There have been more Chaotic Neutral succubi and more Good tieflings in my game than Chaotic Evil ones.

**Drakevarg** · 2010-05-21, 01:49 AM (ISO 8601)

True enough. I've run a campaign where an NPC Paladin was arguably LN or even LE. (He was sent to the city to deal with a necromancer cult. His tactic was "detect evil on everyone. If they ring up evil, arrest and search them. If they have a symbol of Nerull on there person, execute them on the spot." He even openly acknowledged that he had no way of knowing if these people had anything to do with the cult, but it was better to be safe than sorry.)

Ultimately the PCs solved the issue by burning down the chapel they were using as a headquarters.

...

>_>

<_<

...eh, screw it. *glomps Kyuubi.*

Now, off to bed.

**hamishspence** · 2010-05-21, 06:32 AM (ISO 8601)

in 4E, planar dragons are generally descended from chromatics who migrated to the other planes, and adapted.

It's possible that the same may apply in 3rd ed. I think there were references to that in Dragons of Faerun.

**Lix Lorn** · 2010-05-21, 10:42 AM (ISO 8601)

I thought Pyroclastics WERE chromatics... there are more varieties than Chromatic and Metallic? DXD

**hamishspence** · 2010-05-21, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)

Yup- Metallic, Chromatic, Psionic (MM2), Planar (Draconomicon), Lung (Oriental Adventures) and probably several others, as well as ones that don't really fit anywhere.

Epic Handbook has two in the category "Epic Dragon" (Dragon Magazine has a third) - so maybe "Epic dragon" counts as another category.

**Drakevarg** · 2010-05-21, 04:31 PM (ISO 8601)

You forgot Crystal.

**hamishspence** · 2010-05-21, 04:32 PM (ISO 8601)

Crystal dragon is one of the psionic dragons.

Though the official term is Gem Dragon- so that might be a better term.

**Drakevarg** · 2010-05-21, 04:41 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by hamishspence

Crystal dragon is one of the psionic dragons.

Though the official term is Gem Dragon- so that might be a better term.

I was thinking akin to Amethyst Dragons and whatnot... wait, are those psionic?

(Possible interpretations of your statements:

-Crystal Dragons are a type of Psionic Dragon. The one's you're probably thinking of are Gem Dragons.

-Gem Dragons are a type of Psionic Dragon. They're commonly referred to as Crystal Dragons, so I'm correcting you here.)

**hamishspence** · 2010-05-21, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)

I was using "psionic dragons" as a synonym for Gem Dragons (since all gem dragons are psionic)

Crystal dragons are one of the five common races of Gem dragon.

The others are Sapphire, Amethyst, Topaz, Emerald.

And there is an Obsidian Dragon on the WOTC site.

**Drakevarg** · 2010-05-21, 04:47 PM (ISO 8601)

I see. Makes much more sense then.

**Greenish** · 2010-05-21, 04:49 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by hamishspence

Yup- Metallic, Chromatic, Psionic (MM2), Planar (Draconomicon), Lung (Oriental Adventures) and probably several others, as well as ones that don't really fit anywhere.

Epic Handbook has two in the category "Epic Dragon" (Dragon Magazine has a third) - so maybe "Epic dragon" counts as another category.

"Lung dragon" conjures a picture in my mind not entirely unfit for the classification "aberration". That sentence was obviously influenced by far realms.

**hamishspence** · 2010-05-21, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)

The word "lung" can be translated as basically meaning "Dragon"- and unlike the others, they don't have "dragon" as a second part of their name.

Instead the names are:

Lung wang
Li lung
Pan lung
T'ien lung
Chiang lung
Tun mi lung

All lung dragons of age Wyrmling, Very Young, and Young are represented using the:

Yu lung (which has only those 3 age categories)

Unfortunately I only know this from Draconomicon, not having Oriental Adventures.

**Runeclaw** · 2010-05-21, 05:28 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Devils_Advocate

But evilness is a quality, not a substance.

It's pretty clear that, in the standard D&D world, there does exist a form of mystical energy which is inherently "evil" in nature.

Certain uses of negative energy are arbitrarily labeled "evil" for no apparent reason beyond some writers liking to arbitrarily label things "evil".

Well, the writers are the ones who get to define the setting. Except to the degree to which the DM chooses to change it . . .

Zombies and skeletons are allegedly mindless, Neutral Evil creatures that just unquestioningly follow the commands of whoever controls them. But at most one of those things can be true.

Undead are evil because they are powered by evil energy. We could try to determine what it is about this energy that makes its very existence evil. But we do know, because the books tell us, that this is so.

It's not spelled out what "moral action" is supposed to mean, but that barely matters here, because it's clear that for any reasonable meaning that it might have in this context, mindless creatures are incapable of it.

Right. Mindless undead are not evil because of what they do (although it is worth noting that uncontrolled mindless undead will attack any living thing). They are evil because they are powered by evil energy. It is more a rules mechanic thing than anything else really. It basically means "mindless undead are treated mechanically as if they were evil for all effects and purposes." Easier to just label them evil.

This might be ahve been better reflected by the Evil subtype, as it is with fiends, but that would have slightly different mechanical implications in some cases. Also a fiend with the evil subtype can (very rarely) choose to become good (while retaining the evil subtype that is the result of the connection to inherently evil energy). But a mindless undead cannot so choose, because they are mindless.

[QUOTE]Anything capable of understanding language ought to have an Int score of 1 at the very least.[/QUOTE

My computer can understand language (enough to obey simple verbal instructions). Does it have an int score of 1?

Blind obedience to a master is Lawful Neutral or arguably just Neutral.

Not for an intelligent creature, it isn't. Not if the orders are to do evil. For a mindless undead, sure.

Ergo, zombies and golems should have the same alignment. It's not rocket science!

And they would, too, except that zombies are powered by evil energy.

Or, to put it another way, zombies are powered by an energy which causes other supernatural effects to affect them in the same way that they would affect evil creatures. If you like.

And if zombies and skeletons are just supposed to interact with alignment-based effects as though they were Evil... well, that's what the Evil subtype is for, innit?)

Oops, I think that's what I just said. So, yes, probably that would have been the better way to do it. I think the differences is that a Fiend can change alignment and still retain its Evil subtype, so the distinction is more important there. Mindless undead can't, so there's no need to draw the distinction. Also Fiends are presumably even more purely tied to the evil energies that power them, making some Good effects work more effectively agaisnt them than they do against mere undead.

**hamishspence** · 2010-05-21, 05:33 PM (ISO 8601)

A fiend can also change its subtype with magic- though this may risk killing the fiend in the process.

So while evil is a part of it- the fiend can have its evil subtype replaced, without automatically dying. It's probably a big shock to the system though.

**2xMachina** · 2010-05-22, 04:20 AM (ISO 8601)

The Lung Dragons aren't actually pronounced as Lung (the organ).

It's actually based on the Chinese word for Dragon. I think it's pronounced Loung.

**Greenish** · 2010-05-22, 04:28 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by hamishspence

The word "lung" can be translated as basically meaning "Dragon"- and unlike the others, they don't have "dragon" as a second part of their name.

Originally Posted by 2xMachina

The Lung Dragons aren't actually pronounced as Lung (the organ).

It's actually based on the Chinese word for Dragon. I think it's pronounced Loung.

No amount of facts will stop me from feeling amused.

Thread: Where does it point out where always, often and usually mean in terms of alignment?

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Re: Where does it point out where always, often and usually mean in terms of alignmen

Re: Where does it point out where always, often and usually mean in terms of alignmen

Re: Where does it point out where always, often and usually mean in terms of alignmen

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