Tooth and Tentacle [base class PEACH]

[Owrtho]

Hey, uh... if your charisma mod is large enough, wouldn't you be able to take Blossoming Tendril and Ornate Blossom, and use them to extend a budding tentacle from another budding tentacle which extends from another budding tentacle, and so on? And in so doing, essentially use a cheaper form of long tentacle that doesn't accrue an attack penalty?

Well, while you could form a chain of budding tentacles to avoid an attack penalty, I'd note that you need to pay the full cost for each tentacle in the chain. This would mean that each 5 foot length would cost 5 form points. The long tentacle on the other hand costs 3 form points for the initial tentacle feature, then 3 form points for every extra 5 feet, though said extra length gain an attack penalty. That also is assuming you aren't making the tentacle larger than default, or applying any other properties. The hooked tentacle augment for example benefits from the tentacle being longer, which would be lost if you make it a chain of short budding tentacles.

Owrtho

[Owrtho]

Well, just thought I'd post a feat idea. It was inspired by a comment of TravelLog on myth-weavers. Thoughts?

Discerning Taste (Aberrant)
You have learned to gain knowledge of things through tasting them.
Prerequisite: Aberration Blood, one other Aberrant feat, Devour or Swallow Whole
Benefit: You gain a bonus to equal to the number of aberrant feats you posses on knowledge checks about objects, creatures, or people you have used your devour or swallow whole ability on within the last minute. This also causes untrained knowledge checks about anything benefiting from this bonus to be treated as trained.
Special: If you also have the Scavenging Gullet feat, this bonus is increased by 3.

Owrtho

[babus]

I'm imagining this has a very good use for those who construct dungeons in their stomach. Namely that you can swallow someone whole, and learn all their fears at the same time, and possibly any other amount of personal information to toy with them as you break them down mentally and physically.

Edit: Hmm, actually, rereading it, the feat doesn't work on people, just things. Perhaps that might be something worth making possible? The Aboleths have something like it already.

[Necroticplague]

Plus, it synergizes well with Menacing Manors, and I like the idea to it. You should probably add that it allows you to make the check untrained or that it allows you to retry a knowledge check related to what you ate. Also should probably apply to Psicraft, Spellcraft, and UMD/UPD of things you swallow (mmmm... tastes like overwhelming transmutation).

[Owrtho]

Gah, the not working on people was poor wording on my part. I have changed wording such that that is hopefully fixed, as well as allowed untrained knowledge checks to be treated as trained if they benefit from the bonus the feat grants (so you aren't limited to information with a DC of 10 or less).

As for allowing spellcraft, psicraft and UMD, the UMD makes no sense (as it's only really for using magic devices), but the other two along with the reattempting checks may be granted with the below.

Refined Palate (Aberrant)
Your taste has become more refined, allowing you to gain more knowledge about things you eat as well as allowing you to reassess your judgement with further tasting.
Prerequisite: Aberration Blood, Discerning Taste
Benefit: The bonus to knowledge checks granted by Discerning taste is increased by two. Further, spellcraft and psicraft checks now also benefit from the bonus and may also be attempted untrained with regard to anything benefiting from the bonus. Note this bonus only applies to spellcraft and psicraft checks made to gain information about the object or creature, and does aid in decipher scrolls, preparing spells, or performing other such checks based on reading. Additionally, you have learned to reassess your judgement with further tastes. If after having made a check about something benefiting from a bonus granted by Discerning Taste or Refined Palate, you again devour or swallow whole some of it, you may retry the check, even if you would normally not be able to retry a check of that type. Retrying checks in this manner always takes a full round action.

Hopefully the above feat is reasonably clear. Feedback welcome. Also feedback on the sower of strangeness would be appreciated.
(you'd think people would have more to say on a class that lets you graft features onto others)
Owrtho

[Turalisj]

Question Owrtho- Do you have an suggestions on how to convert the class to Pathfinder? Or would it pretty much work as is, just adjusting the class skills?

[Owrtho]

Question Owrtho- Do you have an suggestions on how to convert the class to Pathfinder? Or would it pretty much work as is, just adjusting the class skills?

Unfortunately I am not familiar enough with Pathfinder to be certain. That said, past comments have suggested that only adjusting of class skills is needed.

Owrtho

[Amechra]

Owrtho, may I respectfully ask you something?

May I ask you to make a PrC combining your Ozodrin with my Scavenger?

I'll be making a crack at it as well, but I would like to see your attempt.

[Owrtho]

Owrtho, may I respectfully ask you something?

May I ask you to make a PrC combining your Ozodrin with my Scavenger?

I'll be making a crack at it as well, but I would like to see your attempt.

Well, I'll need to look through the class more, but I think I will be able to make an attempt. That said I have some other projects I plan to try doing first (specifically, I hope to get an entry for the base class contest in this month, and have some ideas for an ozodrin prc based on warping the area around you).

Owrtho

[Amechra]

'S cool; I just wanted to make the idea ferment in your head.

[Magikeeper]

So. A fine-Sized hooked tentacle costs (3+2 - 3) = 1fp and gives a +2 to grapple vs a single target. Unless you take one of the reach extending feats, then it might give +4 to grapple. +6 if you took both reach extending feats. Even without feats, that would be 10fp for +20 to grapple. With the feats that is 10fp for +60 to grapple vs a medium target right in front of you (+40 vs a large target). Has anyone play tested how strong some of these features are at fine size? My group is re-booting to be less crazy high powered, but it still might be too high-powered for me to really check to see if this is too strong. Maybe if it required the length-increasing augment? That would make it a minimum of 4fp to create one of this things at fine sized. That or all of these make-it-smaller augments could have a limit equal to the base cost of the feature.

Fine-Sized claws that catch are okay, I think. (Net 4fp for +3 grapple). It would still be the same post-new min cost as limbs cost 4fp.

Yeah, I think we should alter the <small size> augments to have a min equal to the original cost of the feature instead of 1.

[Owrtho]

Well the issue with that is it removes the option of having plain ones that are smaller to reduce cost. That said, perhaps if each added augment increased the minimum price by 1 (to a max of the base cost of the feature), or if adding augments changed the minimum price to the base cost (esoteric classes would be applied after this).

Owrtho

[NineThePuma]

Size adjustment only applying to the base cost of the tentacle might be a decent fix.

[Necroticplague]

I rather thought that this was intentional, for a certain method to go. It makes it so that the most efficient method of improving grapple is having one gigantic thing, and a bunch of smaller ones. Of course, even if you have a grapple mod of +lolno, grappling is, at it's core, a weak mechanic. All the opponent has to do is "lol, incorporeal/ethereal/FOM/freedom/ tactical teleport out of grasp/escape artist of +lolno", plus a wide variety of enemies and items punish you for grappling them (armor spikes/armor razors, a dozen or so spells, many enemy abilities [fire elemental,lightning elementals, blackblots,anything with an aura of any sort, zombies,vampires,bladelings]). I think a similar thing was brought up before when someone crunched numbers a few pages back and found the best way to deal damage was to grow the maximum amount of attacks you can get for 1 fp a pop, then use secreting flesh to add a lot of damage to each attack. This was before spikes could be added to features, so it may be obsolete.

[Magikeeper]

I rather thought that this was intentional, for a certain method to go. It makes it so that the most efficient method of improving grapple is having one gigantic thing, and a bunch of smaller ones.

Aye, and it still would be so even if we change the min cost mechanic. The check just wouldn't go up as fast. Right now a PC could easily hit +lolno at very low levels by accident - far before the average enemy has anything to deal with grappling. Seriously, a human Ozodrin with using my method above could have a 40+ grapple modifier against medium-sized opponents at level three using nothing more than the tentacle feature and the aberrant feat that extends reach. This is not the result of hardcore optimization involving a bunch of splatbooks and flaws - we are talking about a typical aberrant feat and an early class feature. The PC wouldn't even need to be focused grappling! The issue is that the ratio of bonus to fp is too great with the cost reduction.

Grappling is a weak mechanic at high levels, or mid levels if the game is high-powered. Not all groups play at those levels or power levels. I mean, my group plays at that power level, but many don't.

[Necroticplague]

In which we come to another weakness of grappling. If you do it, you have to either focus on it, or heavily invest in it. When you grapple someone you are restricted in your actions, and vulnerable (flat-footed against everyone but the dude you're grappling). You can only grapple one person at a time unless you invest in some very prerequisite heavy feats (yes their are rules for grappling multiple people, but you can't attacks anyone but the dude you're grappling while grappling, thus can't start another grapple). So while you have one enemy completely under your mercy, you aren't doing anything against the others in combat.

[Magikeeper]

When you grapple someone you are restricted in your actions, and vIn which we come to another weakness of grappling. If you do it, you have to either focus on it, or heavily invest in it.ulnerable (flat-footed against everyone but the dude you're grappling). You can only grapple one person at a time unless you invest in some very prerequisite heavy feats (yes their are rules for grappling multiple people, but you can't attacks anyone but the dude you're grappling while grappling, thus can't start another grapple). So while you have one enemy completely under your mercy, you aren't doing anything against the others in combat.

At level 4 we have snatch which works like improved grab (and improved grapple as a bonus feat). A -20 to grapple with one limb is still going to be +lolno for the Ozodrin when every fp is +4 or more to grapple. Even then, you can pin and kill opponents far above your level if the game isn't high powered. And if it is high-powered that +40 isn't using all of you fp or anything like that.


Anyway, if we fix the min cost of features it becomes 3fp for +4 to grapple if you have the reach feat, so 9fp gets you +12 instead of 10fp getting +40. At level 4 we get improved grapple and snatch, so, with flexible limbs for the blood choice, we get ~(21+Str) vs one target? Without the reach feat that would be 9fp for +6 to grapple, so ~(15+Str) against one target? With both reach feats it is 3fp for +6 to grapple, so it is ~(25 + Str) to grapple vs a single medium target, (21+Str) to a large target. If the ozodrin chose deepspawn raise all checks by ?+2?. Minimum bonus without any feat choices at all is still (13 + Str) at level 4.

Honestly, that is still good and it would result in an ozodrin that didn't spend any feats on grappling being good, one who did is great without always being unbeatable. I think that's a better set up class design-wise. And +reach is its own reward, really. We aren't assuming feats that only boost grappling aside from the ones the class gives you for free so you aren't sacrificing anything for your grappling prowess.

It would also be more interesting with claws that catch, which is 4fp for +3 against multiple targets instead of the 3:4 ratio the tentacles give for single target. Without reach ctc become strictly better, but you get them several levels later.

A potentially bigger issue is that, to be honest, in most games you don't need to hit anywhere near +40 to be +lolno at early levels anyway. It's just an unnecessarily high number. Stuff like that makes homebrew classes look bad. It really does. Numbers that high acquired that easily are treated as a warning sign. Is it justified? Who knows? I play high-op. Maybe infinite grapple at level 3 isn't actually overpowered in any group. And in some groups +40 may as well be infinite grapple - I don't have to assume any level of optimization when the bonus is acquired this easily.

[Gideon Falcon]

Does the Corrupting Land feat require you to anchor shifted features to a solid object, or can they be anchored to, say, a cloud or just a point in space?

Also, I think there should be a higher-level augment that allows you to make spawn with the swarm subtype.

[Tiniere]

Unfortunately I am not familiar enough with Pathfinder to be certain. That said, past comments have suggested that only adjusting of class skills is needed.

Owrtho

Other than the class skills there would also be the problem of the grappling bonuses, as CMD & CMB are seldom as high as the grapple check modifiers were in 3.5 I've spoken to my DM about the conversion too, but neither of us are quite certain about how to deal with the grapple modifiers.

[Owrtho]

Does the Corrupting Land feat require you to anchor shifted features to a solid object, or can they be anchored to, say, a cloud or just a point in space?

Also, I think there should be a higher-level augment that allows you to make spawn with the swarm subtype.

Huh, I thought I'd replied to this already. Anyway, while I had mainly envisioned it requiring the features be attached to a solid object, given the level it's gained and what you can already do with features, I don't think it would be particularly broken or otherwise problematic if they could be placed on things like clouds or just floating in the air. I'd say that as written they can be, but the final call is up to the DM.

Other than the class skills there would also be the problem of the grappling bonuses, as CMD & CMB are seldom as high as the grapple check modifiers were in 3.5 I've spoken to my DM about the conversion too, but neither of us are quite certain about how to deal with the grapple modifiers.

I see. Not having played pathfinder, I can't say what a decent conversion method would be either. I may try looking into it though if I get the chance.

Owrtho

[Avalon®]

Also, I think there should be a higher-level augment that allows you to make spawn with the swarm subtype.

I second this. I like the image of a veritable plague of Far Realms-grade Eye-Spiders coming out of a couple of eyes you have in your back.

[Dr.Orpheus]

I just had some sort of idea, what about a feature for adding weird alien organs such as gas batter that controls depth in water or air, mucus or poison glands or projector, or a second brain, heart, or pair of lungs. These all seem mutant/creepy enough for this class. Other features like the poison glands that produce poison for spikes or any to do with the stomach can still do what they do, but this feature would take up all the other organs not included.

[Owrtho]

I second this. I like the image of a veritable plague of Far Realms-grade Eye-Spiders coming out of a couple of eyes you have in your back.

Right, I was going to look into that. Main issue I see with it is how some of the swarm things would interact with other abilities of the spawn. As a result it will likely end up being akin to an esoteric augment word count, but lets give it a try (speaking of which might flavour wise work well with the Fragmenting Spawn augment).

Swarming Spawn: Additional cost 5
Requires Level 20 and spawn size small or larger: Rather than a single spawn, a swarm of smaller ones are produced. Decreases the max hp of the spawn by 20 (results in 5 additional hp compared to having not taken the augment). The spawn gains the swarm suptype and associated with it traits as if composed of tiny creatures, except as noted. Rather than occupying a 10' by 10' (by 10' if flying) space, it occupies a space as normal for the size the spawn would be if not for this augment. If the spawn possesses a feature that grants a grapple bonus, it retains the ability to grapple, but doing so causes the entire swarm to occupy the squares of the target (which must be at least one size category smaller than the size the spawn would be if not a swarm) and prevents other actions on the swarms part (including swarm attacks). Additionally the results of any grapple roll (after modifier is added) are halved (rounded down), and attacking the grappled target also rolls against the spawns touch AC to deal damage, allowing normal attack to deal full damage if the swam is composed of tiny creatures, or half damage if composed of diminutive or smaller creatures (this does not account for resistance to damage not granted by swarm traits). This does not allow others to grapple the swarm. Rather than gaining a normal swarm attack, the spawn may use a single natural weapon it possesses as its swarm attack (if it has more than one, it may choose which it will use against each creature being attacked, and may change this for subsequent attacks against a creature), for which damage is halved (rounded down, minimum 1). The spawn may make a normal natural attack that could be performed as a standard action, but required a full-round action to do so, and may not make swarm attacks that round. If the swarm has a mouth, it may not make use of the swallow whole ability, though it retains the ability to use devour. However, if it does so, the Con damage is only ever 1, or if normal damage would be dealt, it is halved. This augment may be added multiple times to the same spawn, for each time it is added after the first, the size of the creatures making up the swarm is reduced by 1 size category.

Having looked that over though, it may actually fit better to make that the esoteric flesh augment (with minor edits to make it effect the player rather than the spawn), which in turn could also be applied to a spawn. Might remove the no swallow whole part, as the idea of a swarm just covering someone, then moving on with nothing left is entertaining. Thoughts?

I just had some sort of idea, what about a feature for adding weird alien organs such as gas batter that controls depth in water or air, mucus or poison glands or projector, or a second brain, heart, or pair of lungs. These all seem mutant/creepy enough for this class. Other features like the poison glands that produce poison for spikes or any to do with the stomach can still do what they do, but this feature would take up all the other organs not included.

The main issue with this is most organs wouldn't have a notable effect mechanically, meaning they are mainly fluff. With that, they could simply be added as physical effect of other features, augments, and feats at the player and DMs discretion. One of the only organs I can really think of off hand that can't just be used a flavour for something already doable with the class would be a spiders spinnerets which were suggested previously, though would likely fit best as something gained in a small PRC. If you have thoughts for other organs that might have a more clearly mechanical benefit not already covered, feel free to share it, as suggestions are always welcome.

Owrtho

[Dr.Orpheus]

The main issue with this is most organs wouldn't have a notable effect mechanically, meaning they are mainly fluff. With that, they could simply be added as physical effect of other features, augments, and feats at the player and DMs discretion. One of the only organs I can really think of off hand that can't just be used a flavour for something already doable with the class would be a spiders spinnerets which were suggested previously, though would likely fit best as something gained in a small PRC. If you have thoughts for other organs that might have a more clearly mechanical benefit not already covered, feel free to share it, as suggestions are always welcome.

Owrtho

I have several ideas for organs here is a small list, but be warned the ones near the end are a bit silly.

1. Poison Extracting Liver: It not only filters your food but if the poison is ingested you may later excrete this poison through another feature and have some knowledge about the chemical make up of the poison for crafting it yourself.
2. Magic Retaining Brain: If you identify a spell with a spellcraft check you never need to identify that spell again and if you are a wizard levels you learn that spell and may put it in your spell book.
3. Extra or larger Lungs: You can hold your breath twice as long and can double the range of breath weapons that you can use.
4. Aberrant Heart: Your blood deals acid damage to people that hit you in melee.
5. Flight Bladder: Allows you to ascend or descend an extra 10 ft. flying or swimming.
6. Large Adrenalin Gland: you may rage once per day like a Barbarian.
7. Muscular Mold: A muscle in you gut can mold to any shape then let Vacuoles carry in substances to fill the space it creates as directed by the brain. Envision a non-living non-magic organic or mineral object and then make a craft check using your con mod instead of your int, as long as you eat objects that in total weigh as much as the the target object made of the same materials. Then you can craft the item in your gut while you go about your day then grab them out of your stomach when they are done.
8. DNA Backup: When ever polymorphed you may revert to the form you were last in as a move action.
9. Hallucinogenic Colon Sack: A gland near your colon produces a hallucinogenic gas so you can fart out a major image spell a number of times per day equal to your con mod.
10. Tits of medicine lactation: You can produce a number of cure light wounds potions equal to your con mod they can't be stored for later use in containers because it must stay at your body temperature to function.

[Avalon®]

How do you determine the stats of a given spawn? How much Str, Dex, etc. does each one have? Do you stat them out like puppets with starting Str of 8 or do they follow your own stats?

[Owrtho]

How do you determine the stats of a given spawn? How much Str, Dex, etc. does each one have? Do you stat them out like puppets with starting Str of 8 or do they follow your own stats?

As there is nothing mentioning otherwise, they use your own stats.

Owrtho

[Irdiumstern]

Very interesting class you put together, I quite like it.

I've been trying to come up with a sort of sniper build, but something is somewhat unclear to me. If you take a spitting mouth, and blow it up to colossal, does concentrated spit still do anything? 4d6 seems a little lackluster, but a lack of any kind of cap would probably also be bad. 6d8 max from the weapon size table?

Also, a mouth can have multiple energy spits. Would this allow you to make an extra ranged attack per energy spit taken, or would it be one attack per mouth?

[Empedocles]

Awesome class. Liking it

Thinking of using one as a villain...

[Owrtho]

Well, I intended to answer this earlier, I apologize for the delay.

Very interesting class you put together, I quite like it.

I've been trying to come up with a sort of sniper build, but something is somewhat unclear to me. If you take a spitting mouth, and blow it up to colossal, does concentrated spit still do anything? 4d6 seems a little lackluster, but a lack of any kind of cap would probably also be bad. 6d8 max from the weapon size table?

Right, looking back at it, I noticed that concentrated spit does seem mostly redundant at this point. It was originally made during a point in the ozodrin's development where there were benefits to keeping a mouth smaller (specifically with devour). That said, it still has a benefit at this point if the mouth is already colossal in that it still improves the drooling mouth augment (which normal mouth increases do not, though aside from this, the damage is still capped by the feature description on damage capping at colossal till epic begins increasing it). That said, looking at it, I'm considering making normal mouth size increases not improve the spit attacks (though their default damage will still be based on the ozodrins natural size). I would be interested in hearing other peoples thoughts on this idea, or alternative suggestions.

For the issue of 4d6 not being much damage, it is worth considering that the ozodrin is able to get more ranged attacks dealing this damage than most other classes. Also, not sure if your accounting for the monster feat (improved natural attack I think) that increases a natural weapon type's damage by one size category, and isn't counted for the ozodrin's size cap.

Also, a mouth can have multiple energy spits. Would this allow you to make an extra ranged attack per energy spit taken, or would it be one attack per mouth?

The mouth is still limited to one attack per round. That said, as all other augments to spit attacks apply to all energy types available save the spraying mouth, it can allow for easily selecting the best energy type for a given foe when they different types are already available.

Owrtho

[Magikeeper]

So, to do list:

1) The devour alteration? The most recent version is reposted below, including alterations to the Jaws that Bite ability and the Hooked Teeth augment so that they still work with the new ability. I don't think this version has any issues:

Spoiler

Show

Devour(Ex): If a second level or higher Ozodrin pins an opponent, and that opponent is in the same square as at least one of the Ozodrin’s mouths, the Ozodrin may begin eating that opponent. Each round the Ozodrin maintains the pin the opponent takes a point of con damage plus an additional point of con damage per four class levels. The opponent also takes regular damage equal to twice the Ozodrin’s class level. For each point of con damage successfully dealt to the opponent the Ozodrin heals 2 points of damage. The Ozodrin may cough up any magical or inorganic items possessed by one or more completely eaten opponents (opponents that were killed by this ability) as a standard action as long as they do so within ten minutes of eating the opponent(s). Pieces of inorganic opponents such as iron golems cannot be coughed up this way and unusually potent items, such as artifacts, might survive longer than ten minutes.

Razor Teeth: Additional cost 6
Required level 4: Opponents being devoured by you in the same square as this mouth take an additional point of con damage per round and 5 additional points of regular damage per round.

Jaws that Bite (Ex): If a creature attempts to use a Swallow Whole special attack against a 5th level or higher ozodrin manifesting it's true nature that has at least one mouth, the ozodrin may choose to make a grapple attempt in response. If successful, the ozodrin avoids being swallowed and instead pins the opponent and begins devouring them. The Ozodrin may choose to use their own Swallow Whole special attack instead if they have one. This grapple check does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

2) Hole in Time.

3) I will eventually give suggestions for medicine maker
.
4) The ability for a mid-op PC to luck into a +40 grapple mod at level 3 is still an issue. Maybe just add a line to all of the reduction augments that states that they are applied BEFORE other augments? That way you are still paying at least 1+2 = 3fp for a hooked tentacle, while still allowing for cheaper versions of base augments. Also fixes some other, less important corner cases.