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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    Actually, this class does not grant improved grab. It has improved grapple and Coiling Tentacle. Though the latter functions as improved grab, it is not named as such and therefore cannot be used as the ability for the purposes of meeting prerequisites.
    My bad.

    Also, something about otherworldly skill and Aberrant Monstrosity seems to be annoying me. They are both strictly worse than taking the actual feats and it seems that they were created just so that other types of feats could "feed" your other aberrant feats.
    That is what they do. Their purpose is not to make fighters feel even more worthless than they already are! Feeding aberrant feats is not a small thing for this class. Also, your suggestion ignores the main reason those feats were created - to let multiple ozodrins have more varied feat selections. This class wants to take a ton of aberrent feats. Your version doesn't do that. It doesn't allow anywhere near the number of different builds. In fact, it doesn't really allow for a 'build' at all.

    'Strictly worse' doesn't apply to this situation at all. I would always take an aberrant fighter bonus feat over a normal one. And if you take all aberrant feats (which this class pretty much does), the restriction doesn't really matter. It just prevents any fighting class from always going aberrant because, hey, why not?
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2010-09-27 at 09:31 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #242
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    Hmm... I suppose that my argument there was full of holes and faulty logic. Thanks for helping to point all of that out to me.
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  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    Actually, this class does not grant improved grab. It has improved grapple and Coiling Tentacle. Though the latter functions as improved grab, it is not named as such and therefore cannot be used as the ability for the purposes of meeting prerequisites.
    This along with some previously mentioned points is a good point. As such, after reading the descriptions of the abilities, I've given the ozodrin Improved grab at level 5, and changed coiling tentacle to give it constrict damage.

    The scent and tremorsense options could work. Not sure about all the other options, I'll think over them when I have more time.

    Edit: Also, as a side note, I made it so ozodrin can qualify for sized based feats even if they normally couldn't (though it only gains the benefits for features that are of the appropriate size. This allows the ozodrin to take feats like snatch (a much better version of improved grab for huge and larger creatures).

    Also should the max DC of manifest form be 10 + charisma modifier + twice class level, or 10 + twice charisma modifier + twice class level?

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    Last edited by Owrtho; 2010-09-27 at 02:56 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    What exactly do you people mean when you say "optimized ozodrin." To me it just seems a tad oxymoronic, seeing how the main strength of the class is it's flexibility. What exactly are you guys optimizing for?

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    Hmmm...

    I don't know why you want such a high DC for manifest form? I know that it's not that powerful but... No, wait, I've got it. Why not use a combination of your original DC (dependant on features) and of the normal DC formula.

    Namely, it would start as 10 + 1/2 class level + Cha mod + 1 per type of feature your aberrant form possesses.
    In this way, you couldn't create a few dozen eyes to send the DC through the roof but having a particularly crazy form does up the DC.

    From a purely aesthetic standpoint, level 5 looks a bit... full. As you got another grapple ability only the level before, maybe push it back a single level (erm... forwards?)... maybe.

    Also, I finally realized what I didn't like about those 2 feats. Even though homebrewing exists to create new concepts, something about the idea of feats that grant the benefits of feats seemed a bit too far off the beaten path for my (quite odd) aesthetic tastes. Though I accept that nobody's forcing me to take these feats (and that they do their job), here is what I would suggest in place of the current otherworldly skill/aberrant monstrosity.

    Otherworldly Skill (Aberrant, Fighter)
    Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +4, any 2 aberrant feats.
    Benefit: All fighter bonus feats that you possess count as aberrant feats for all purposes. You may select a fighter bonus feat whenever you would normally be able to select a bonus aberrant feat.
    Furthermore, for the purpose of prerequisites, you possess a fighter level equal to half the number of aberrant feats you possess (unless your actual fighter level is higher).
    Special: Fighters may select this feat as one of their bonus feats.

    Aberrant Monstrosity (Aberrant)
    Prerequisite: Any 2 aberrant feats.
    Benefit: All (Monstrous) feats that you possess count as aberrant feats for all purposes. You may select a (Monstrous) feat whenever you would normally be able to select a bonus aberrant feat.
    Furthermore, you count as both an aberration and as a member of your normal type for the purposes of acquiring (Monstrous) feats.

    There. Instead of taking it multiple times to enable separate feats, you take it once and it enables you for good. To justify their existance, each of them also gives a small kicker effect on top of that.

    And for the record, to my knowledge, the current wording does affect all appropriate feats you possess (including ones gained in the future, thus qualifying as a feat you possess). If I missed some rule about the timing of constant effects not being applied constantly, let me know and I'll add the words "and obtain" to both feats.

    Edit: We're optimizing for maximum versatility. Obviously.
    Last edited by Realms of Chaos; 2010-09-27 at 07:57 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    I like the idea of having manifest form be based on type instead of number of features.

    I thought level 5 was full myself. However, one of those abilities is passive and 'jaws that bite' is very specific. I could imagine JtB as 1/3 of a tactical feat.

    I don't have an issue with those feats. I do admit that they are simpler and less clunky, although that version of aberrant monstrosity is weaker for an Ozodrin past level 10. Maybe a
    Special: A creature already of the aberration type counts as both an aberration and as any one creature type of their choosing for the purpose of taking (monstrous) feats. This choice is made when this feat is taken, or whenever the creature permanently changes their creature type to aberration (such as when an Ozodrin reaches 10th level).
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2010-09-27 at 08:35 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    Now then, to address some of the suggestions mentioned previously:
    • Necrotic Cyst wouldn't fit being more of an undead feat. However that is somewhat like what is being done (see the current spell feat as an example).
    • The maneuvers may work, but I'm unsure how well. As such I'd rather avoid that at the moment. A PRC built around that could be worthwhile though.
    • Not sure about the rend thing, I think there is already a similar feat anyway.
    • the multigrapple has already been discussed.
    • Not sure about the double bite thing.
    • I'll think about the telekenisis and beholder eyes thing, but don't think it is too likely to be added any time soon if at all.
    • the tremor sense and scent thing could work.
    • The king may not even keep it in the basement most of the time. Also, you're overlooking the other possibility that the door to the 'basement' may actually be an entrance into the ozodrin's stomach using the Gateway augment.
    • Not really anything that needs addressing in Magikeeper's post.
    • The knowledge thing is a distinct possibility.
    • The other posts up till my last have already been addressed.

    As for the recent things.
    Realms of Chaos:
    The thing about the type while a possible addition, doesn't quite seem to work due to the fact that there are not many feature types (the main variability is augments). As it is, the DC is based on number of features (with a max DC based on level and charisma modifier). Perhaps though the DC could be based on the number of different augments used (not counting stomachs).

    I sort of see what you mean on the level looking full, but level 6 is if anything even more full due to gaining a new feature (which has 4 augments right off the bat). Then again, I could possibly move it up.
    Related to that, I'm debating giving the ozodrin snatch as a bonus feat rather than improved grab. Snatch includes everything improved grab has, but is somewhat more monstrous and includes rules for tossing opponents and making breath attacks on them while holding them in ones mouth.

    As for your suggestions for the feats, while those are much simpler to use, they seem to be almost dead feats that are needed just to make others work. I'd actually suggest combining the two versions to make it not feel so much like a wasted feat. Something like:

    Otherworldly Skill (Aberrant, Fighter)
    Prerequisite:
    Base attack bonus +4, any 3 aberrant feats.
    Benefit: Choose a fighter bonus feat you meet the prerequisites for. This feat must not require a proficiency in a non-natural weapon. As a free action 1/day per two aberrant feat you posses you can gain the benefits of that feat for 1 hour.
    In addition, all fighter bonus feats that you possess count as aberrant feats for all purposes. You may select a fighter bonus feat whenever you would normally be able to select a bonus aberrant feat.
    Furthermore, for the purpose of prerequisites, you possess a fighter level equal to half the number of aberrant feats you possess (unless your actual fighter level is higher).
    Special: Fighters may select this feat as one of their bonus feats. The feat chosen in this way also count towards any other class/feat/skill/etc requirements as if you had the feat.

    For aberrant monstrosity, I think just having it let you choose a creature type to count as for the purposes of qualifying for feats, classes, etc. regardless of you actual type would work (since you could use that to let you take monstrous feats you normally couldn't). So:

    Aberrant Monstrosity (Aberrant)
    Prerequisite:
    Any 2 aberrant feats.
    Benefit: All (Monstrous) feats that you possess count as aberrant feats for all purposes. You may select a (Monstrous) feat whenever you would normally be able to select a bonus aberrant feat.
    Furthermore, you may select a creature type. You may choose to count as that type or you actual type for the purpose of qualifying for (Monstrous) feats or PRCs.

    Edit: Also, just thought about it while looking at some various aberrant feats, but should I make a tail feature or an augment to the tentacle to make it a tail? If so what should it do exactly? All I can really think of is having it loose the built in ability to grapple (or at least bonuses to it) and give it a tail slap attack with more damage (possibly also let it gain the tail sweep of dragons which only effects creatures at least 4 size categories smaller meaning fine sized for a medium tail). Could retain grapple with appropriate feats (like tail constrict).

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    Last edited by Owrtho; 2010-09-27 at 09:14 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Owrtho View Post
    Realms of Chaos:
    The thing about the type while a possible addition, doesn't quite seem to work due to the fact that there are not many feature types (the main variability is augments). As it is, the DC is based on number of features (with a max DC based on level and charisma modifier). Perhaps though the DC could be based on the number of different augments used (not counting stomachs).
    Umm... I'm counting 11 types of features so an alternate form using them all would have a save DC of 21 + 1/2 class level + Cha mod (Easily 40+ at level 20). Why is this too low for you?

    I know that on one hand simply shakening foes isn't a big deal but on the other hand... why are you so set on making the DC so high that nobody will ever make a saving throw? Even though fear immunity is amazingly common, this effect looked like more of a random flavor thing than a primary class feature so why not set DC is set to normal standards (or to the suggested 40+ value above that people would already be hard-pressed to save against)?

    I know that seeing a partially non-euclidean creature should be at least somewhat unnerving but you're trying to save the DC higher than the confusion aura of an Uvuudaum, a creature from the far realms practically made of insanity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Owrtho View Post
    I sort of see what you mean on the level looking full, but level 6 is if anything even more full due to gaining a new feature (which has 4 augments right off the bat). Then again, I could possibly move it up.
    Consider that spellcasters have been known to get class features at levels when they get access to entire new spell levels and things like this doesn't look too bad. I'm not even talking about the Tier 1-2 spellcasters, mind you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Owrtho View Post
    Related to that, I'm debating giving the ozodrin snatch as a bonus feat rather than improved grab. Snatch includes everything improved grab has, but is somewhat more monstrous and includes rules for tossing opponents and making breath attacks on them while holding them in ones mouth.
    I'm totally in favor of that. Also, I now have great need for a mouth augment that lets you use your elemental drool as a breath weapon (unless it was already made and I just missed it).

    Quote Originally Posted by Owrtho View Post
    As for your suggestions for the feats, while those are much simpler to use, they seem to be almost dead feats that are needed just to make others work. I'd actually suggest combining the two versions to make it not feel so much like a wasted feat. Something like:

    Otherworldly Skill (Aberrant, Fighter)
    Prerequisite:
    Base attack bonus +4, any 3 aberrant feats.
    Benefit: Choose a fighter bonus feat you meet the prerequisites for. This feat must not require a proficiency in a non-natural weapon. As a free action 1/day per two aberrant feat you posses you can gain the benefits of that feat for 1 hour.
    In addition, all fighter bonus feats that you possess count as aberrant feats for all purposes. You may select a fighter bonus feat whenever you would normally be able to select a bonus aberrant feat.
    Furthermore, for the purpose of prerequisites, you possess a fighter level equal to half the number of aberrant feats you possess (unless your actual fighter level is higher).
    Special: Fighters may select this feat as one of their bonus feats. The feat chosen in this way also count towards any other class/feat/skill/etc requirements as if you had the feat.
    Instead of granting a feat with a feat, I'd recommend using a generic combat ability (somewhat minor in scope) and mixing it with the feat transformation. For example...

    Otherworldly Skill (Aberrant, Fighter)
    Prerequisite:
    Base attack bonus +4, any 2 aberrant feats.
    Benefit: All fighter bonus feats that you possess count as aberrant feats for all purposes. You may select a fighter bonus feat whenever you would normally be able to select a bonus aberrant feat.
    Furthermore, for the purpose of prerequisites, you possess a fighter level equal to half the number of aberrant feats you possess (unless your actual fighter level is higher). Lastly, you may slightly alter your natural weaponry at will, allowing all attacks with natural weapons to deal bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing damage (your choice).
    Special: Fighters may select this feat as one of their bonus feats.

    On a side-note, I lowered the prereqs from 3 to 2 abberant feats above because it seemed that anyone who'd want this feat would want to make as much use of it as possible, thus making early access desirable (and getting it 1 feat earlier kind of makes up for the feat that your version gives and this one does not). I may quite possibly be wrong, though. I tend to do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Owrtho View Post
    For aberrant monstrosity, I think just having it let you choose a creature type to count as for the purposes of qualifying for feats, classes, etc. regardless of you actual type would work (since you could use that to let you take monstrous feats you normally couldn't). So:

    Aberrant Monstrosity (Aberrant)
    Prerequisite:
    Any 2 aberrant feats.
    Benefit: All (Monstrous) feats that you possess count as aberrant feats for all purposes. You may select a (Monstrous) feat whenever you would normally be able to select a bonus aberrant feat.
    Furthermore, you may select a creature type. You may choose to count as that type or you actual type for the purpose of qualifying for (Monstrous) feats or PRCs.
    No problem with this. One thing worth noting, though, is that most feats restricted to a creature type are either strictly useful only to their creature type (such as granting turn resistance), have alternate requirements that implicitly requires a creature type (such as Con --), or requires some other ability that an ozodrin may not have (such as a breath weapon or petrification eyes or poison). Just an odd observation.
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  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    Snatch only works with claw and bite attacks. At this point you may as well create a new ability that both does what you want and counts as improved grab for the purposes of meeting prerequisites.

    You could fold the improved grapple effect into it too and just have it be a single 4th level ability.

  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    In order:
    Well, the stomach and lure trap features wouldn't count toward it (for obvious reasons of not being visible), but aside from that I mainly just forgot there were that many features. That said, I'd likely change the duration back to 1d4 rounds or 1d4 + cha mod rounds.

    You make a good point, but in general casters can't change up their spells at will (still a good point though).

    Ask an ye shall receive (kinda surprised I didn't think of it sooner actually).

    That makes sense, though I'd say the attack should have a -1 penalty to damage.
    As for the lowering of the prereqs, if we're reducing the effect of it I completely agree, though I wonder if the BAB requirement should be lowered as well.

    While that is true about the types, there are also many cases in which the ozodrin can fulfil the requirements with features and augments (such as a dragon only one that requires a tailslap attack (which thanks to the new tentacle augment the ozodrin can have).
    Also, if someone could type up a quick special eye version of petrification eyes it would be handy. Also the only reason I haven't added poison is it would be rather more difficult than I feel it is worth to come up with a balanced version of it.

    As a side note I decided to make a smaller feature augment, for the rare times when you need the feature smaller than the base size. However, depending on balance it may be better to remove it or increase the cost from -1 to 0 (not sure how broken having a fine sized feature with nice augments for cheep is), in which case I will make the price changed to -1 for the spawn and puppet features (as it previously had been).

    Also, Magikeeper, that is a good idea, and I think I shall do so.

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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Owrtho View Post
    [list][*]Necrotic Cyst wouldn't fit being more of an undead feat. However that is somewhat like what is being done (see the current spell feat as an example).

    Owrtho
    You're right, I didn't consider the undead flavour of the ability. Maybe I'll try to come up with something similar but more fitting for aberrations and then post it here...

    The new version of Otherwordly Skill looks great. I can see some potential for a feat or a prestige class that lets you form actual weapons with your features, kinda like Alex Mercer from Prototype. Just wondering though: while the feat now grants an extra ability, Aberrant Montruosity doesn't. Is this intentional or a fitting bonus could be added to it too?

    Also, I wanted to know if you plan to change the Farspawn feat or not after the long discussions on the topic in the last pages.

    Lastly, I wanted to thank you again for giving us all the opportunity to play such a wonderful character. I'm currently trying one in a Evil campaign with a few friends.
    Last edited by Markus Darkmind; 2010-09-28 at 03:48 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    Aberrant Monstrosity lets you count as a creature type of your choice for prerequisites (I personally recommend dragons if you look at the draconomicon monstrous feats). Given the lower prereq (no BAB), it seemed to not warrant as strong of an ability. Then again, it might be fine if it scaled (such as getting to choose an additional creature type for every 3 or 4 aberrant feats).

    As for the farspawn feat, I knew I was forgetting something.

    Also, I'd like to hear how it turns out playing one. Such feedback would be quite useful. On that point I'd also recommend checking over the augments due to the recent changes that have been made over the last few update (mostly adding new ones, but some minor changes, such as reducing the cost to increase the mouth size from 3 to 2 for the time being, may change it back depending on balance).

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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    Sure, I'll be glad to help if possible. What kind of things would you like to know?

    The reducing augments seem interesting enough, expecially if the Ozodrin is somehow able to obtain some bonus damage (sneak attack or the like)
    Last edited by Markus Darkmind; 2010-09-28 at 05:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    Well, in general how it balances against other classes, how it performed in battle, etc.

    I can say right now the ozodrin won't gain sneak attack or the like itself, but it could take a level of rogue.

    As for adding a tremorsense augment, any suggestions on level and cost?

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    Last edited by Owrtho; 2010-09-28 at 02:29 PM.
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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    No offense, Owrtho, but I liked the old Farspawn feat better than the new one. Mainly because it had a reasonable in-built limit and counted itself for the purposes of gaining form points.

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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    If you'd prefer, I could put the original up as an alternate version and leave it up to the DM to choose which they want to use.

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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    Could you? I'd appreciate it if you did.

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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    Added the alternate (original) version of farspawn to the first post. Wording is slightly different, but the meaning is the same.

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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    Thank you!

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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    Going over current abilities:

    First, many of the augments are out of order. For example, Large limb should be after enchanted claw. Also, I think we should create a list (for our own use) of where each augment is being acquired. In fact, here is a very basic one:

    Spoiler
    Show

    O = Out of order in the post. To save space I am not counting <limb> errors – there are so many…
    1. 4x Eye
    2. 3x mouth
    3. 1x Eye, 5x Tent(Ox2)
    4. 2xMouth(O), 1x Tent(O)
    5. 1x Eye, 2x Tent, 1x Limb (?!)
    6. 2x Tent, 3x Limb
    7. 1x Limb
    8. 1x Tent, 1x Limb
    9. 1x Limb, 7x Fin
    10. [Budding Body]
    11. 2x Mouth , 1x Tent, 6x SpEye
    12. 2x Mouth, 2x Fin, 4x flesh
    13. 2x Mouth, 1x limb, 1x flesh, 5x pup
    14. 6x SpEye, 1x Flesh, 4x Stomach
    15.1x Mouth, 2x Flesh, 2x pup, 5x Stomach, 7x Lure Trap
    16. 1x Fin, 1x SpEye, 2x Flesh, 2x Stomach
    17. 2x Flesh [Shifting]
    18. Mouth x1, 2x Flesh, 1x Stomach, 6x spawn
    19. 1x Stomach
    20. 1x Stomach
    Some of this chart is misleading as some augments are more complicated than others.


    Feature Natural attack limit: This should note “the number of natural attacks granted by features an Ozodrin can make each round”, otherwise races with natural claws and such can get hit with the limit. Also, do Ozodrin natural attacks count as primary? Does that mean that other natural attacks used with them become secondary (IMO they should)?

    An attempt to make twisted mind more readable (it needs more nouns in any case):

    Twisted Mind (Ex): The mind of an ozodrin of 11th level or higher is a twisted cacophony of madness. This causes it to be harmful for others to mentally interact with. If a non-aberration creature attempts direct mental contact with an Ozodrin (such as by telepathy, suggestion, or domination), before saves are made, the creature takes wisdom damage equal to 1/5 the ozodrin’s class level (rounded down, minimum 1) and the ozodrin gains an equivalent bonus on any will saves against the ability that triggered the effect. If this reduces the creatures’s wisdom below 5, the creature is affected as if by the insanity spell until their wisdom is again above 5 (or all wisdom damage is healed). The ozodrin may suppress or resume this ability as a standard action.

    Not sure how useful this ability is since it is pretty common for high-level parties to use telepathic communication. Maybe it should be turned off/on as a free action. Also, for purely aesthetic purposes the chart would look better if this was a 12th level ability.


    -------------------------

    Devour: So, random items? As a DM, that sounds horrible. As a player, I wouldn't let a fellow PC risk losing the good stuff. Why can't they just barf out everything? That even makes more sense than barfing out a few items. If I upchu- <content removed for being kinda gross. It made my point through, I promise>. Have you ever seen an animation where the horror spits out the remains? Anyway, sacrificing loot to use this ability is not a choice. People won't do it without pissing other people off. Saying "you must do -this- or else the loot goes poof" makes it an extra cost for the ability. Now, deciding whether to pay the fp for swift action retrieval or to stick with the standard IS a choice. But only if the standard doesn't risk the loot.

    Also, the standard action one should be listed under *Devour*, with the potential swift action version under swallow hole. Besides being MUCH easier to understand, it is fine for devour to only have a standard action method at level 2 - it is a very strong ability for that level. At level 7 it is just good.

    ------------------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteNothing View Post
    Mainly because it had a reasonable in-built limit and counted itself for the purposes of gaining form points.
    Not against the idea of an alternate version, but I feel like countering these points anyway:

    1. Since you get a aberrant blood for free at 1st level, neo-farspawn will always give at least 1 form point. 2x neo at start will give the same as 2x old farspawn. On the other hand, 1x neo 1x other would give the same as 2x old.

    2. The neo-farspawn does have a built-in limit - 50% of your feats, with the benifit diminishing returns (X*Y = Y*X, so having more then half your feats be neo-farspawn actually reduces the number of fps you get). ~30-40% would be the most effective amount for those who wish to focus on gaining fp. I could calculate the exact equation, but I don't want to.

    --------------------------------------------

  21. - Top - End - #261
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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    Looking back over manifest form now and alot of things still look wierd (not necessarily bad mind you, just wierd) to me. The duration seems kind of random, the wording is unclear about whether the save/intimidate bonuses are only granted within your alternate form, I don't quite understand why you only get a bonus to will saves against aberration effects, this is probably the only ability that says the opponent is freed for 24 hours (unless you take actions that can be completed by your next turn ), and it is probably the only class I've seen that has end-notes tacked onto a class feature.

    The biggest 2 points are as listed below:
    1. Despite having mouths that imitate voices, skins that create disguises, and puppets to lure enemeis near, your fear aura remains active and remains a tip-off that something is wrong. Also, the fact that shuffling your features around resets the saving throw suggests that the fear effect is based more on your physical frightfulness than on otherworldly energies but you still evoke will saves if your disguise is very tame such as a third eye on the forehead, two wings, or even nothing at all.
    2. The specials of the class feature don't really have any reason to remain separated from the real things. As you've always granted at least one bonus aberrant feat (now three) and aberrant feats are used to calculate form points, the statement " If you have Aberrant feats (from Lords of Madness), " seems kind of redundant. Likewise, as this class changes your type at higher levels, the line allowing your to continue taking the feats should probably be a main point of the ability (speaking of which, you may want to remove the redundant text in aberrant nature that says the same thing).

    I'd personally recommend something like this:
    Manifest Form (Ex): As a swift action, an ozodrin may manifest or suppress its true nature. While its nature is manifested, all features that it possesses are active (see below) but it may not add or remove new features (but see aberrant nature, below). While in this form, the ozodrin practically oozes unease into the world around them. Animals refuse to approach within 30 feet of an ozodrin and are shaken while forced into such range. In addition, while in this form, the ozodrin adds their class level as a bonus to Intimidate checks and to saving throws against the special abilities of aberrations.
    Once per day per class level, an ozodrin may fully reveal a true portion of their hidden essence through this form. Doing so is a swift action that causes all creatures possessing a line of sight with the ozodrin to make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 class level + Charisma modifier) or become shaken for one minute or until the end of the encounter, whichever comes last. Creatures that succeed on this saving throw are immune to this effect when used by that ozodrin for 24 hours.
    An ozodrin may take aberrant feats even if they aren’t humanoid. An ozodrin may choose to suppress the effects (and visual components) of their aberrant feats when they suppress their true nature but they must suppress all or none of such effects.

    To sum things up, the rules about features interracting with your true form are provided, you spook animals (consider this your "tell") and intimidate people with your pressence but can still disguise yourself and such, and your frightful presence becomes an active action with limited uses (still more than you'd ever need) but better duration.

    Also, the line about taking feats for larger creatures was dropped from the ability but I have a good reason for this. Unless the entire plan for this was to rely on enlarge person spells (), the earliest that this class can enlarge itself is at 15th level when it gets Engorged flesh. As you only get the feat benefit when you (not any natural weapons involved [trust me when I say that you don't want to try and word it this way. That way lies madness ]) are large enough to use it, you are letting players choose feats at 1st level that they won't get to really use until 15th level. That seems kind of odd to me but if you really want to tack this ability on rather early, why not tack it onto the far less packed ability Strange Anatomy as opposed to the over-packed manifest forms?
    Last edited by Realms of Chaos; 2010-09-28 at 08:54 PM.
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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    Magikeeper: Fixed up most of the things you mentioned. As for the farspawn ratio for maximum form points, turns out it would be 50% (and I'm not sure if that's the best idea). Equation is:
    Form Points = Aberrant Feats + Farspawn Feats * (Aberrant Feats - Farspawn Feats)

    As for Realm of Chaos's comments (somewhat less looked into as he while I was typing this):
    The will save would be a constant feature (after all, it would seem rather odd for one eldritch horror to go mad from looking at another).
    The intimidate bonus was likewise intended to be constant, but likely makes more sense if it isn't (the idea being that they could leak through some of their otherworldlyness when not manifesting their true nature).
    The part about the immunity for 24 hours is rather funny I suppose.
    Also the duration was somewhat arbitrarily chosen.

    As for your first main issue, I'd meant to change the while to when (thus it would only happen when you first change).

    For your second main one I can agree with it.

    Your suggested alternate version does seem to have much better wording, though as mentioned above, the part about the will saves and intimidate are intended to persist even when not manifesting your true nature (though I may change the intimidate to only be when manifesting it).

    As for the size issue, I'd intended to have it let use use feats requiring a larger or smaller size with features that met the requirements even if you didn't. For example, if you had Fling Enemy (savage species), which requires huge size (also assuming that you have the 23 strength needed), it would make sense that if you have a huge limb to tentacle that you could make use of it. Similarly wingstorm and dust cloud (also savage species) should be possible to use provided you have large enough wings/tail.

    That said, the size thing would fit better on strange anatomy.

    Also, speaking of disproportionately sized limbs makes me want to add an augment to the spawn feature called unbalanced that allows a single feature to be added of a size category larger than what the spawn can normally have for its size (able to be used multiple times to have a single feature a few size categories larger, or multiple ones each 1 size category larger). Would also cost less than a full size increase for the spawn (most likely 1). Thoughts?

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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    Perhaps Manifest Form should be split up into more than one ability? Manifest Form should only concern itself with the ability. Let the extra constant stuff be a different ability (I think +1/2 class level at that - those bonuses are somewhat nuts at full class level). We don't gain many things at level 7 right now.

    ---------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Owrtho View Post
    Magikeeper: Fixed up most of the things you mentioned. As for the farspawn ratio for maximum form points, turns out it would be 50% (and I'm not sure if that's the best idea). Equation is:
    Form Points = Aberrant Feats + Farspawn Feats * (Aberrant Feats - Farspawn Feats)
    I meant the equation that determines when you get the most fp for the fewest feats, for example:

    4/10feats -> 5/10 only nets a single point. In fact, the final farspawn of an even feat number always nets a single point (Random pick: 59/120 -> 60/120 = 1 extra fp point!)

    Taking exactly 50% is a bad idea. Edit: Well, 1 feat is maximum ratio so um... the equation that magically turns opinion into fact when it comes to "when should I stop taking these feats?".

    At very high even feat numbers the farspawns give, in reverse order from the last: 1-3-5-7-9, etc, etc, up until the best ratio which is the first feat (N-1).
    So 50% may be the max, it isn't the best amount to take from any power standpoint.
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2010-09-28 at 11:02 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #264
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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    So this guy has a fear "aura" with great range (line of sight) that functions when he's looking perfectly normal? I thought that the entire point of suppressing your form (including your aberrant feats) was to pass off as completely normal. That the fear effect works on line of sight and not with an aura shows that creatures are freaked out by what they see but the entire point of surppressing the aura in the first place is to prevent that. If anything, the intimidate seems like it should be constant while the fear should only be while transformed.
    For that matter, what about the augmentations I mentioned above (such the deceptive mouth or pretending flesh)? How are you supposed to sucessfully imitate anybody if anybody seeing you gets bad vibes? Through puppets only (for that matter, though puppets don't share your features, they technically count as a part of you and DO freak people out through this ability even while hiding in your own stomach if my current understaning of the rules hold true)? Even if that works, you'd need to add them on via a lure trap, meaning pretending flesh would do you very little good for a very long time.

    As these guys are expected to go in-cognito at times (indeed they have several augmentations for this purpose), why not replace the fear with a more subtle ability such as a morale penalty to attacks against you (like a psuedonatural/half-farspawn creature in their alternate form) that increases with your level or... making the fear effect only activate in encounters or... something.


    Edit: Oh. when you said the will save, I thought you meant the fear effect. My bad.
    To atone for my blunder, please accept this humble offering (edited according to your wishes)

    Manifest Form (Ex): As a swift action, an ozodrin may manifest or suppress its true nature. While its nature is manifested, all features that it possesses are revealed (see below) but it may not add or remove new features (but see aberrant nature, below). When the ozodrin manifests their true form, all creatures possessing a line of sight with them must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 class level + Charisma modifier) or become shaken for one minute or until the end of the encounter, whichever comes last. Creatures that succeed on this saving throw are immune to this effect when used by that particular ozodrin for 24 hours.
    An ozodrin may take aberrant feats even if they aren’t humanoid. An ozodrin may choose to suppress the effects (and visual components) of their aberrant feats when they suppress their true nature but they must suppress all or none of such effects. Lastly, the Ozodrin adds their class level as a bonus to Intimidate checks and to Will saves against the special abilities (but not spells) of aberrations at all times, even when suppressing their true form.
    Last edited by Realms of Chaos; 2010-09-28 at 11:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    Its fine, I've made similar mistakes myself before.
    As for your rewording, that is a remarkably clean version of what I'd intended when last I modified the ability. Thank you for taking it upon yourself to do so.

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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    Wow, I've only read through about half the class and the features, but I want to play this so damn bad already. I mean just wow. I'm a huge fan of versatile classes and this is just an amazing pot of win.

    On the Aberrant Monstrosity feat, I can personally only really see Dragon as the type choice, if only for feats like the stacking DR 2/- and +20/+10 to Speeds. Then again, I'm partial to dragons. XD
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    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    For the tremorsense and scent bits, you could have them show up at the same level as when you gain the blind eyes which grant blindsight.

    Have the tremorsense and scent run like the blind eyes (each feature grants 5 ft worth of range).

    Have tremorsense manifest as something like antennae or catfish barbs (not their own type of feature mind you, just as for what they look like flavore wise).

    Maybe the the scent manifest as tongues (I just kind of think snake tongue instead of dog nose for scent with the Oz) or hair like receptors (like fur has pollen latch onto it, these have scents latch onto them).

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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    New Manifest form:
    A) Still effects allies every time you unleash your powers. It should only effect opposing creatures – punishing allies is never good and all that.
    B) I would add “racial” or “innate” to the special abilities bit. Non-casting classes give special abilities too.

    On tremorsense and scent: Scent should probably be a mouth augment what with the snake tongue. As for tremorsense, maybe:
    Blindsense -> level 3
    Tremorsense -> level 5
    Blindsight -> level 7.

    Based on that chart I created a few posts ago (no comments?), level 7 only has a single augment at that level. Blindsight is still awesome at 7th level and giving it at the same level as tremorsense would be meh. Blindsense at 3rd puts it at the same point wizards become invisible, and serves as the sightless version of insightful eyes.

    Say, maybe

    Spirit Eyes: Additional Cost 4
    Requires Level 10 and Insightful Eyes: This glowing eye allows the Ozodrin to see magical auras within 10ft. This functions like Arcane Sight, except that it also detects psionic powers in addition to arcane and divine spells/spellcasters and that it also allows the Ozodrin to see ethereal creatures. This stacks with any other sources of Arcane Sight including other spirit eyes.

    ^Note: Ozodrins don’t gain spellcraft as a class skill, so it isn't as strong as it would be on other PCs.

    I admit that there shouldn't be many more new features at this point. We have enough.

    On another note, could we spread out the spawn augments? Level 18 is loaded while level 19 has a class ability and one augment (one Awesome class ability and one Awesome augment, but still). Maybe move swarm spawn?

    -----------------------------------------------
    On aberrant monstrosity – I was thinking dragon when I suggested that, but “Undead” is a contender. There are probably a few other good choices here and there.
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2010-09-29 at 08:48 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #269
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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Magikeeper View Post
    New Manifest form:
    A) Still effects allies every time you unleash your powers. It should only effect opposing creatures – punishing allies is never good and all that.
    B) I would add “racial” or “innate” to the special abilities bit. Non-casting classes give special abilities too.
    Knew I was forgetting something (or somethings, in this case).
    Actually, though, the first point may be entirely unecessary for 2 reasons.
    1: It doesn't make sense. While I know that gameplay trumps internal consistency, it isn't like this guy is shaping a fireball around his friends. A bit of otherworldly energy appears in his form as he transforms and that freaks people out. How would one go about actively deciding that his friends aren't freaked out?
    2: This is my actual point, namely that letting this guy shaken party members doesn't really hurt them at all. Keep in mind that once somebody has saved, they are immune to 24 hours. That means that this guy can keep revealing his form until everybody's made a successful save each morning and that they'll be completely unaffected for the rest of the day. It actually works out pretty nicely.
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    Default Re: Tooth and Tentacle [3.5 base class PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    Knew I was forgetting something (or somethings, in this case).
    Actually, though, the first point may be entirely unnecessary for 2 reasons.
    1: It doesn't make sense. While I know that gameplay trumps internal consistency, it isn't like this guy is shaping a fireball around his friends. A bit of otherworldly energy appears in his form as he transforms and that freaks people out. How would one go about actively deciding that his friends aren't freaked out?
    Well, having the horror on your side might even be calming. Like "oh really? Maybe you should meet my good friend CTHULHU!” What enemy is going to be more screwed up than your ally the Ozodrin? “Oh look, it has 3 mouths and tentacles. I see that each night at dinner.” Can you argue it the other way? Yes. But this way also supports gameplay.

    2: This is my actual point, namely that letting this guy shaken party members doesn't really hurt them at all. Keep in mind that once somebody has saved, they are immune to 24 hours. That means that this guy can keep revealing his form until everybody's made a successful save each morning and that they'll be completely unaffected for the rest of the day. It actually works out pretty nicely.
    And this makes sense how? "Well Bob, you've seen this 1,000 times over the years, but I guess we should do your morning Immunizations".
    Seriously, give me a reason it makes sense that does not also invalidate the 24hr immunity. One that is less contrived than the horror-on-your-side idea.
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2010-09-29 at 09:19 PM.

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