[3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

[Curmudgeon]

I was just looking at the Swordsage dip advice; it says that a 1 level dip (ideally taken at level 9) allows you to take 'Assassins Stance', but that stance requires 3 levels of Swordsage to take. Is there something Im missing?

Well, yes and no. Swordsage 3 is mostly an indicator of two things:

• what class(es) grant the maneuver/stance
• the maneuver level

Table 3-1 on page 39 of Tome of Battle includes the martial initiator level and highest-level stance correspondence, which mirrors primary spellcasting classes and spell levels. However, non-martial classes only grant ½ initiator level per class level; see the text before the table. Thus Rogue 8/Swordsage 1 would have initiator level (8∙½ + 1) = 5, which is normally enough for a 3rd-level stance.

There's a further restriction, specified in the Swordsage class description on page 16:

Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you. At 2nd, 5th, 9th, 14th, and 20th level, you can choose additional stances.

Thus when you begin play as a 1st level Swordsage you're restricted to a 1st-level stance, and can't choose any higher stances until Swordsage level 2. Starting with a 3rd-level stance, like Assassin's Stance, requires a house rule. So that's the hinky part.

[Koury]

There is a debate over the line 'begins play with...' means exactly. Some people do believe that a Rogue8/SS1 is limited to 1st level stances because of that line, and others believe that it only applies to taking your first character level as Swordsage. I am ambivalent, (and could have the details of the debate wrong) due to lack of ToB.

I don't know about the RAW argument, but if they could get a level 3 stance via a feat (well, two), why couldn't they get it with an actual class level?

[PId6]

I've made my stance on this clear enough already; I don't see a point in arguing further. *shrug*

Fact of the matter is, ask your DM if you're not sure on anything.

[dextercorvia]

I don't know about the RAW argument, but if they could get a level 3 stance via a feat (well, two), why couldn't they get it with an actual class level?

Two feats requires a fairly hefty investment compared to a single level dip in a martial build I'd say.

A wizard begins play with a spell book, do you allow a multiclass character to get one for free going from Fighter to Wizard?

[DragoonWraith]

Two feats requires a fairly hefty investment compared to a single level dip in a martial build I'd say.

Depends on the class. Not so much for a spellcaster, say. Two feats is a more than fair trade for a spellcasting level.

A wizard begins play with a spell book, do you allow a multiclass character to get one for free going from Fighter to Wizard?

By RAW, yes.


Basically, RAW, yes, I'd say you get only a 1st level stance when taking the first level of any martial adept. However, I consider this almost as stupid as the Monk's non-proficiency with his fists, and probably wouldn't play with a DM who enforced it.

[Koury]

Two feats requires a fairly hefty investment compared to a single level dip in a martial build I'd say.

A wizard begins play with a spell book, do you allow a multiclass character to get one for free going from Fighter to Wizard?

Hehe, yeah, I actually would, unless they wanted some special style of book.

I'd say two feats, especially since they both are useful, is about the same cost as an entire character level. This is all very subjective, however.

[Parra]

Savvy?

makes sense. ty

[dextercorvia]

Hehe, yeah, I actually would, unless they wanted some special style of book.

So you would rule that begin's play clauses apply after character creation? Again, I'm not trying to argue for or against. I have noticed that a lot of players assume that Rogue1/Wizard1 (going unseen seer -- so it remains relelventish to the thread) gets a spell book (even if they level mid adventure), but they don't want to apply the SS's begins play text, because it is less advantageous to do so. If I'm for anything here, it is consistency.

[Koury]

I would let the Fgt/Wiz get his book. Whats more, I'd let him get his special book, as long as he pays for it.

I'd let a Rog/SS get higher level maneuver/stances, as long as he picked up the prereqs.

[dextercorvia]

I would let the Fgt/Wiz get his book. Whats more, I'd let him get his special book, as long as he pays for it.

I'd let a Rog/SS get higher level maneuver/stances, as long as he picked up the prereqs.

I would just like to point out that this is an inconsistent treatment of 'begin's play'.

And since I haven't said so yet,:

Thanks for the guide PId6. I think it is a pretty good summary of the usual advice. I'm not convinced TWF is the way to go for melee Rogues, but you helped me out on my alternate idea, so you probably knew that.

[Koury]

I would just like to point out that this is an inconsistent treatment of 'begin's play'.

*shrug* Keeps my players happy and having fun.

[dextercorvia]

*shrug* Keeps my players happy and having fun.

That's what is important. I could honestly play it either way on both counts.

[PId6]

Thanks for the guide PId6. I think it is a pretty good summary of the usual advice. I'm not convinced TWF is the way to go for melee Rogues, but you helped me out on my alternate idea, so you probably knew that.

On researching, I found Overwhelming Attack monk a pretty good dip for that style of fighting, since you can completely dump Str and still use Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack. If you're still building that character (unlikely, but possible), you should consider that option.

[Endarire]

You can also colorize and format your links.

Rogue!

[Curmudgeon]

A wizard begins play with a spell book, do you allow a multiclass character to get one for free going from Fighter to Wizard?

I would; it's in the rules. Wizards get a free spellbook when they begin play in that class. In both this case and the Swordsage's, what they start with is listed as a class feature. When adding a new character level you always follow the Player's Handbook rules on pages 58-59. Class Features is step 9 on this list.

[PId6]

You can also colorize and format your links.

Rogue!

I don't really see a need for links to be blue. That would be more confusing with the color rating scheme, and all the links on this website are the same brownish tan color anyway.

[dextercorvia]

On researching, I found Overwhelming Attack monk a pretty good dip for that style of fighting, since you can completely dump Str and still use Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack. If you're still building that character (unlikely, but possible), you should consider that option.

I wasn't building that for a game. It's just something that I've been thinking about regarding whether TWF is worth it for SA. So I appreciate any suggestions. That is an interesting option that I hadn't considered. It makes getting Daring outlaw by lvl 6 fairly unlikely, but there is something there to think about.

My theory is that if Shock Trooper Power Attack (High Str, Dump Dex) is better than TWF without SA+Craven, it likely is still better with SA+Craven. Three attacks with 1.5xStr+ approximately 2BAB+HD+9d6 bonus damage per attack., vs 6 attacks (pairwise at a -2 vs. the corresponding brute attack) with a lower BAB and +HD+12d6 on a successful hit.

I would; it's in the rules. Wizards get a free spellbook when they begin play in that class. In both this case and the Swordsage's, what they start with is listed as a class feature. When adding a new character level you always follow the Player's Handbook rules on pages 58-59. Class Features is step 9 on this list.

I appreciate your consistency, but I expected nothing less.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

TWF is best served with the following choice menu items:

A one-level dip in Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian is an inexpensive and tasty choice, adding Pounce to your repitoire. This allows you guaranteed full attack on the first round against an opponent. This minimizes the 'you have to full attack, which means you die' arguments

A friendly caster willing to cast Greater Magic Weapon on both of your weapons. You may wish to give them a Pearl of Power of the appropriate level for their convenience. This increases the odds of you attacking while minimizing your out-of-pocket costs for upgrading your weapon.

Along that vein, if you have an IC Bard in the party (or perhaps as a Cohort), this synergies amazingly well, as he gives morale bonuses to attack and damage.

A two-level dip in Swordsage. This has numerous advantages. First, Assassin's Stance, so you don't neglect your Sneak Attack progression. Second, Shadow Blade, because you probably dumped your Str like a smart person. Third, Baffling Defense, so he doesn't actually hit you after all. If you can combo this with Shifting Defense, you never get hit by a full attack, but that likely won't be an option for you. It also nets you Wis to AC in light armor (like Mithral Chain Shirt +1 of Shadowed and Silent Moves...), situationally useful abilities to make a flat-footed or touch attack, and other options available. An excellent garnish to go with your main dish.

Ranks in UMD, with Wand Sheaths in your weapons. This will give you access to things like Wraithstrike, Golemstrike, Gravestrike, and Vinestrike. This is an excellent first course to go with your salad.

A one-level dip in Cloistered Cleric for Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, and one other Domain/Devotion of choice. Three appetizers for the price of one.

I would further like to point out that crits are nearly worthless for a SA-focused build, as your SA dice are not multiplied. Thus, you double your base weapon damage. Oh my, an extra d4 damage. I'm so happy.

I would also recommend the house Merlot to go with your choice of cheese fondue.

So, let's recap:

You actually get more attacks = yes
More attacks = more hits = yes, with all the extra bonuses and means of getting touch-attacks
You survive = yes. If they are dead, they cannot kill you.

A -2 penalty is small potatoes compared to the bonuses you are stacking

You use buffs to severely mitigate weapon cost

Unless you dip Cleric, Devotions are 1/day. So blowing a feat for 1/day ability? Not too handy. And if you dip Cleric, you trade in your domain for the Devotion anyways, so no net loss there. In exchange, you double your rate of fire. I call that worth it.

The ideal weapon for the Rogue is any damn weapon, it doesn't matter. You can sneak attack with anything. Just go with Daggers. Crits are meaningless for a SA rogue, and one extra point of damage on average isn't going to break the bank.

At the start of every combat, you Pounce and kill your target, rendering it unable to kill you in return. If you run into more trouble than you originally anticipated, you use something like a belt of Battle or Travel Devotion to get out of harm's way.

So yea, TWF is not a trap for rogues. In fact, Rogues are one of the few classes which can stack damage per hit to make it viable.

[PId6]

Very nicely put Shneekey. However, I'd like to point out that crits are still quite useful due to things like Knowledge Devotion, Shadow Blade, and Craven. But, since you actually get more attacks with TWF, you're going to get more crits as well. Win win.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, one-level dip in Master of Masks for Gladiator Mask will give you proficiency in all weapons, so you can dual-wield Kukri all you like. You get your 18-20 crit ratio, and light weapon too.

I forgot how late in the PrC it takes to wear two masks at the same time, but stacking with Assassin Mask can be fun

[dextercorvia]

Trap is not my word. Those are all good points, however every buff you state for a TWF Rogue works just as well on a THF Rogue, except that THF spends less on one Weapons than TWF spends on two equally enchanted weapons (Even with GMW) .

And by dipping CC and SS TWF is down an additional 2 BAB, even assuming the same Daring Outlaw chassis as THF is using that brings the difference between like attacks to a -4, and TWF is getting iteratives slower, so there are several levels where we are talking about 3 attacks at full vs. 4 attacks at -4 (or similar). Keep in mind that by stacking PA with Craven and Leap Attack, which is easy by 9th level Crits are worthwhile to THF guy. Even without crtis, PA for full on a TH weapon over three successful attacks+SA+Craven will out damage SA+Craven on 6.

[PId6]

My problem with just stacking ubercharger feats onto a rogue is that, after a point, you're really no longer a rogue anymore. It's the same thing as the question of "why don't we all play druids?" If you're just taking ubercharger feats, getting nearly full BAB, and only using rogue for a minor boost to damage, why not just go all the way and become a Frenzied Berserker or something?

The difference between THW charger and TWF rogue is the difference between rogue as an auxiliary and rogue as an essential component. It becomes a question of how much of the archetype you're willing to sacrifice for the sake of effectiveness. Ultimately, if you're willing to sacrifice everything for the sake of optimal output, you may as well play a wizard or druid and skip the rogue class completely.

[Icewraith]

TWF is for Gestalt rogues.
Spring Attack is also for Gestalt rogues. No really. REALLY.

Generally speaking, Gestalt does melee really well. But for rogues it means you can double up with a full BAB d10/12 HD class and not worry so much about being hit in melee.

As for Spring Attack, if you're getting full rogue sneak attack from one side of your progression you can take all five levels of Tempest from Complete Adventurer to reduce your TWF penalties by 2, gain a dodge bonus to AC when attacking with 2 weapons and gain the ability to hit with both your weapons whenever you spring attack. NOW bounding assault and rapid blitz suddenly allow you to get off a near full attack-equivalent and move at the same time!

To really crank up the power: grab daring outlaw, swift hunter and swift ambusher (name may not be correct) and combine rogue, swashbuckler, ranger, scout, and tempest levels (Make sure you get a ruling from your dm on this, some don't like the idea of class combo feats in Gestalt, others don't mind so much) to get your preferred combination of maxed dodge bonus/shield of blades, maxed sneak attack and about 17/20 levels worth of skirmish, with 2-3 favored enemies. Also note swift hunter lets you apply skirmish damage to favored enemies, RAW it allows you to apply skirmish damage to even enemies normally immune to skirmish damage since specific trumps general but again check with your DM. Some people may cry "foul!" or "cheese!" due to the feats but this combination still doesn't out-power core wizard spells at the level it comes into play (around 10th, nevermind 18th), and it makes a really mobile, really effective two-weapon fighter with excellent AC and buckets of damage round after round. Even without the combo feats a rogue// swash3/fighter2/LT barb1/tempest 5 hits with both weapons, full sneak attack dice and gets to move its speed using just spring attack, never mind the other feats in the chain.

Also I don't see swift ambusher on the feat list ( I may have just missed it), another 1 level dip into scout probably loses you a sneak attack die but it gains you skirmish. While it's not as many dice, it is extra damage during rounds that require you to move, negating the loss of iterative attacks or it's just extra damage and AC when pounce-charging or spring attacking, so it's definitely a damage and survivability gain. It doesn't work with swashbuckler though, just rogue.

If you're mentioning ACFs, the shield of blades ACF from PHB2 for swashbucklers replaces the dodge bonus you get vs. a single opponent and replaces it with a dodge bonus vs everyone in the round when you attack with 2 light weapons. With daring outlaw and a level of Lion Totem Barbarian your AC will go UP in the round you charge vs. EVERYONE. Best options are twin kukris, short swords, or light maces (with desert wind dodge and/or lightning maces from complete warrior, 5% chance to get an extra attack (i.e on a threat), 10 % with impact weapons, higher if you cheese it with aptitude weapon keen short swords (20%) or keen kukris (30%)). If you have a DM who allows Kaorti Resin Keen Aptitude Weapon Kukris, he will either remain clueless about any semblance of balance, disallow them in the near future, or use them on your character in the near future, proceed at your own risk.

Also in gestalt, the Feat Rogue ACF is basically two Gestalts in one side: gain full fighter feats, rogue class features and skill points by dropping sneak attack.

[PId6]

TWF is for Gestalt rogues.
Spring Attack is also for Gestalt rogues. No really. REALLY.

Spring Attack really doesn't work with TWF at all. You're either using Spring Attack, or using TWF; never both. And no, Tempest isn't a good way to merge them. More on that below.

As for Spring Attack, if you're getting full rogue sneak attack from one side of your progression you can take all five levels of Tempest from Complete Adventurer to reduce your TWF penalties by 2, gain a dodge bonus to AC when attacking with 2 weapons and gain the ability to hit with both your weapons whenever you spring attack. NOW bounding assault and rapid blitz suddenly allow you to get off a near full attack-equivalent and move at the same time!

Tempest is really a terrible class, even for Gestalt. It requires a grand total of five feats, at least half of which will be utterly useless for you no matter how you fight. Its abilities amount to +3 AC, +2 attack, and Two-Weapon Spring Attack, at a cost of five levels and as many feats. In both regular and Gestalt, you have far better options than this.

When you add in Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz, you have spent a total of five levels and seven feats in order to have half as many attacks as a regular TWF user. And this "combo" doesn't even complete until at least 18th level. You are far far better off just full attacking with pounce and using something like Travel Devotion to move afterward.

Also I don't see swift ambusher on the feat list

It's on the "to-add" list.

If you're mentioning ACFs, the shield of blades ACF from PHB2 for swashbucklers replaces the dodge bonus you get vs. a single opponent and replaces it with a dodge bonus vs everyone in the round when you attack with 2 light weapons.

That's a pretty good ACF. I've added a note in the multiclassing section for Swashbuckler.

[dextercorvia]

My problem with just stacking ubercharger feats onto a rogue is that, after a point, you're really no longer a rogue anymore. It's the same thing as the question of "why don't we all play druids?" If you're just taking ubercharger feats, getting nearly full BAB, and only using rogue for a minor boost to damage, why not just go all the way and become a Frenzied Berserker or something?

The difference between THW charger and TWF rogue is the difference between rogue as an auxiliary and rogue as an essential component. It becomes a question of how much of the archetype you're willing to sacrifice for the sake of effectiveness. Ultimately, if you're willing to sacrifice everything for the sake of optimal output, you may as well play a wizard or druid and skip the rogue class completely.

There are no fewer rogue levels in my build than in schneeky's. There is also nothing inherently rogueish about TWF, except for the perception that it gets more SA. I simply replace the TWF tree with 4 feats that admittedly give greater combat effect.

I was incorrect earlier when I said Leap attack at 9, my build gets it at 10 on the second fighter level. But the point remains that even if a TWF build gets twice as many attacks(which it won't at every level), a THW dealing twice as much damage per attack, will hit more often, and significantly rule on a crit. The trick is to get that double damage, I think I'm close, but I'm still a handful of damage short.

[Greenish]

I was incorrect earlier when I said Leap attack at 9, my build gets it at 10 on the second fighter level.

Leap Attack is not a fighter feat.

[Edit]: The popular image of a rogue isn't one charging into the combat with a huge twohander. Double daggers (for example) are inherently more rogueish than a falchion.

[DragoonWraith]

There are no fewer rogue levels in my build than in schneeky's. There is also nothing inherently rogueish about TWF, except for the perception that it gets more SA. I simply replace the TWF tree with 4 feats that admittedly give greater combat effect.

I was incorrect earlier when I said Leap attack at 9, my build gets it at 10 on the second fighter level. But the point remains that even if a TWF build gets twice as many attacks(which it won't at every level), a THW dealing twice as much damage per attack, will hit more often, and significantly rule on a crit. The trick is to get that double damage, I think I'm close, but I'm still a handful of damage short.

Except your damage is not, primarily, coming from Sneak Attack, it's coming from standard charging. At that point, you could ditch the Rogue and build a better charger not using one.

[Dexam]

How has a Rogue's Handbook gone this far without mention of the Neraphim race and the Neraph Charge and Neraph_Throw feats, all from Planar Handbook?

The feats are somewhat skill point intensive, unless you take a Planar Rogue substitution level or multiclass into a class with Knowledge(The Planes) as a class skill.

The Neraphim race, on the other hand:
- Outsider type. Very handy for ignoring those humanoid-affecting spells like Dominate Person and Sleep; no need to eat or sleep; and proficiency in all martial weapons.
- Darkvision 60'. Always useful.
- +5 racial bonus to Jump checks. Pretty meh, really.
- +2 Natural Armour. Yes please!
- Weapon Familiarity with annulat. Only useful if you're using a thrown-weapon rogue or want to do an Exotic Weapon Master build.
- +2 racial bonus to Spot and Search checks. What rogue doesn't want these?
- Neraph Camouflage (Ex). The Neraph Charge and Neraph Throw feats in a single racial ability. One free sneak attack per opponent per encounter (assuming you charge or use a thrown weapon). Very useful when fighting multiple opponents and you want to share the Sneak Attack love.
- LA +0.

[PId6]

How has a Rogue's Handbook gone this far without mention of the Neraphim race and the Neraph Charge and Neraph_Throw feats, all from Planar Handbook?

Very interesting feats. Neraph Charge is unfortunately extremely MAD-inducing, but it can work very nicely with pounce. Neraph Throw is a lot worse since it only works on one attack and not on multiples, but it can still be useful. I'll add both and Neraphim once I get some time.

[Amphetryon]

Telling Blow, from PH2, makes a crit-Rogue pretty happy.