Keychain of Creation IV: The Lore Thing

[Reynard]

Edit: Which book are Ghost-Blooded in?

SoW: Scroll of Heroes, with more ghost stuff in BoS4: Ghosts and Demons.

[WalkingTarget]

Don't they have to pick up some dots in Occult and then learn the appropriate charms before they can even do that?

My interpretation was that the middle three panels of 319, where Misho is talking to them while their eyes are closed, is the process of buying the 1st-Circle Sorcery charm.

[lesser_minion]

My interpretation was that the middle three panels of 319, where Misho is talking to them while their eyes are closed, is the process of buying the 1st-Circle Sorcery charm.

Actually, that makes sense looking back over the rules (For some reason, I had the training time for a charm down as something ridiculous).

(Slight nitpick, you always buy whatever you wanted to train before you train it)

[WalkingTarget]

Actually, that makes sense looking back over the rules (For some reason, I had the training time for a charm down as something ridiculous).

(Slight nitpick, you always buy whatever you wanted to train before you train it)

Order of operations from the rules on training vs. spending XP aside: before the middle panels they didn't have access to Terrestrial sorcery, after the panels they did. That was my point. Now begins the process of learning the actual spells, but they have the base charm.

[lesser_minion]

Order of operations from the rules on training vs. spending XP aside: before the middle panels they didn't have access to Terrestrial sorcery, after the panels they did. That was my point. Now begins the process of learning the actual spells, but they have the base charm.

Yes, apart from that nitpick, I was agreeing with you. I had it down as something like eight months to learn a charm, when it's actually more eight hours for Emerald Sorcery.

[golentan]

(Slight nitpick, you always buy whatever you wanted to train before you train it)

Who said they didn't?

[Tavar]

Who said they didn't?

That comment was directed to WalkingTarget, whose statement could be construed to not be rules legal.

[golentan]

So, evidently Marena comes by her predilections honestly. This seems like the kind of thing that would be phenomenally awkward in grade school, or if they have to negotiate with Yu Shan in the future.

[Weimann]

Currently taking bets on how long before someone produces said pictures.

[The Glyphstone]

Rule 34 says they already have.

[Leliel]

...Why is it that every time we learn more of Aria, I keep hearing Nickelback in the back of my mind?

"A congressman would call her every once in a while/
Got the schoolgirl skirt on the top of the pile..."

[Jerthanis]

Wait... I thought the sorcery lessons arc was filler. Now we're taking a break from taking a break?

Sometimes it seems like this comic would have to start moving backwards if it wanted to go any slower.

[Raz_Fox]

Wait... I thought the sorcery lessons arc was filler.

So, getting a better insight into the backgrounds and personalities of half our main cast is filler? Gosh, you're right! Jukashi, heed this man. Every comic should bring our cast one step closer to defeating Falafel, and taking an arc to flesh out your characters is slow, boring filler. And you should never, ever, take a breather between arcs, no matter how amusing they are. The only thing that matters is getting this story finished, and if you ever deviate from that goal you've failed.

...Gosh, I'm vindictive today. X|

[Rad]

Wait... I thought the sorcery lessons arc was filler. Now we're taking a break from taking a break?

Sometimes it seems like this comic would have to start moving backwards if it wanted to go any slower.

He could skip right away to the end, with Creation saved.
But it's getting there that's amusing.
I don't consider this initiation arc filler.

[Jerthanis]

So, getting a better insight into the backgrounds and personalities of half our main cast is filler? Gosh, you're right! Jukashi, heed this man. Every comic should bring our cast one step closer to defeating Falafel, and taking an arc to flesh out your characters is slow, boring filler. And you should never, ever, take a breather between arcs, no matter how amusing they are. The only thing that matters is getting this story finished, and if you ever deviate from that goal you've failed.

...Gosh, I'm vindictive today. X|

A good story blends elements together so there aren't 'character development arcs' and there aren't 'plot advancement arcs', they all flow together and happen as the result of one another. We get to know our characters through the actions they take in the plot and the plot becomes important as it forces the characters to change. Exposition is not story.

And while your pun on 'flesh out' is quite funny, these characters are pretty damn well fleshed out by this point. We've had quite a few exposition scenes around campfires, in quiet innrooms, and on the road doing nothing more than talking about the characters. We know minutia about these characters now, and meanwhile the plot has been practically on hold for a long time.

I'm just saying, what we were doing before was taking a break from the dramatic tension of the previous chapter and, I believe it was said in the author comments at some point, "letting the characters 'air'", and now that it's "taking a breather" to "cleanse the palate". I just think if my palate gets any more cleansed I'll forget what Keychain even tastes like.

[Kyeudo]

The man's got a point. We need to see the main characters get back to hunting for the Keys. We've seen almost no progress on that front since the end of chapter 1.

[Caeli Navarchus]

Has everyone forgotten the scene with the Lion already? I thought that looked rather vital to the main plot.

Or the fact that our group now has 40% of the Keys accounted for since Nemen Yi showed up?



(And this is completely unrelated but has just started to bug me: did Secret see Aria as a stick figure in that painting or not?)

[lord_khaine]

I personaly did not see the sorcery arc as filler, we got a awfull lot of background information on the cast, as well as a lot of foreshading on things to come.

[Maximum Zersk]

(And this is completely unrelated but has just started to bug me: did Secret see Aria as a stick figure in that painting or not?)

My guess is yes. Apparently, they became more aware of it. I guess it could be explained of as getting rid of a wierdness censor?

[Jerthanis]

Has everyone forgotten the scene with the Lion already? I thought that looked rather vital to the main plot.

Or the fact that our group now has 40% of the Keys accounted for since Nemen Yi showed up?

FaFL: "Behold my minions, for there is another sword I want you to also retrieve! in addition to the other four!"
Ben: "Whew, I'm worn out from all that plot, let's take five months off."

And Nemen Yi is a strange case, because on the one hand it does further the plot of the Keys, but on the other it didn't result in the protagonists acting on the situation to rectify it in any way. She had the Starmetal key, she kept the Starmetal key, protagonists left. Still, I liked this plot alright, it's just that I also felt it was long overdue by the time it arrived and that the story went right back to going in circles after.

I could explain exactly what aspects of the Chapter 3 Abyssal Attack/Nemen Yi story I found unfulfilling personally, to do with the main characters simply reacting to events with no real agendas or purpose of their own, and being revealed later to have been better off had they done nothing at all in the end, but really, that story was okay and there's no point picking on it.

I just feel like there are serious pacing issues that are starting to become apparent, and that character focused arcs have absolutely dominated the comic to the exclusion of plot development.

[The Bushranger]

I have no problem at all with the pace and focus. In fact, I prefer it this way.

[golentan]

Why would they, who have to wander around creation where they can be and are already tagged and stalked by Falafel's forces (having been jumped twice and basically lost both times, hanging on to the key by dumb luck) take the starmetal key away from the protection of Yu Shan and a sidereal martial artist who is almost certainly essence 6 or higher and demonstrated an ability to beat down the primary antagonists without breaking a sweat? Unless she's a member of the rumored Iron faction, in which case she could easily have simply not intervened/dropped a hint or two and her cause would be supported, with Ben and Flame getting not only the key but the locators. I don't see it.

There mission is to keep creation SAFE, by making sure the keys are SAFE, not claim the keys for themselves. I would posit that the Starmetal key is probably very safe for the moment, and they now know it. Major plot point, fairly recent, if you don't like it that's what fanfic is for.

[Jerthanis]

Why would they, who have to wander around creation where they can be and are already tagged and stalked by Falafel's forces (having been jumped twice and basically lost both times, hanging on to the key by dumb luck) take the starmetal key away from the protection of Yu Shan and a sidereal martial artist who is almost certainly essence 6 or higher and demonstrated an ability to beat down the primary antagonists without breaking a sweat?

This is why I said, "...main characters simply reacting to events with no real agendas or purpose of their own, and being revealed later to have been better off had they done nothing at all in the end"

It's not that they should've taken the starmetal key, but that the story being structured the way it was remains unsatisfying. The story made it so the characters couldn't take an action which did not make the situation worse, and so the few proactive actions which occurred may have allowed the Abyssals to survive by distracting Nemen Yi, kept her from recovering the Orichalcum key which Misho believed would've been safer with her, and Misho's dash for freedom only resulted in burning half the city down, when if he had simply heard them out, Nemen Yi's hand would've been forced without the city being on fire.

So... in the end they took actions, but without knowledge of the consequences and without advancing the things important to themselves, only reacting without real choices. These details made it unsatisfying to me. I still think the story was the best one since the very first story arc, so I'm not really bashing it, just that there were aspects of it which grated.

[Jukashi]

That's the stuff!

Tell me more.

[golentan]

But see, to me that's made up for by Yagami Yi at the end. We now know that there's at least one more faction out there than the protagonists are aware of (whether or not that faction is an enemy is unclear) and that they have a point man who's already infiltrated the group. Hitchcock said that tension is something the audience knows that the characters don't, and the traditional framework for a plot has continuous rising tension leading to a climax. By which lights I count the plot a success in that it.

That said, there are some things where I wouldn't disagree if you were to complain. As much as I loved the character of Nova, that section wasn't necessary to the plot. Much like the humor involving her, it tended towards over the top theatrics followed by a letdown: classic for jokes but as an arc it tended to drag, and that inertia carried over with fillers and then caused the next arc to feel draggy as a result.

Actually, I think it's because Jukashi is trying to write it like an exalted campaign that the pacing sometimes feels off. Games have to be climactic at least once an episode, but in between you have a lot of downtime and so you tend to go climax/doldrum/climax/doldrum rather than doldrum/plot/plot/Plot/PLOT/Climax, with some ups and downs in there but overall continuous growth. Swapping the two isn't as satisfying to either group. Tangentially, I now feel slightly dirty.

Still, to me Keychain is at it's best when character driven rather than action driven, so we may also be looking at it from completely different angles.

[Jerthanis]

That's the stuff!

Tell me more.

Yeah, I'm not trying to make you feel bad, or anything, and I kind of regret my original snarkiness up there about "taking a break from taking a break" because there are a lot of ways that you can take a break. Artistically, Chapter 4 was probably just as much effort as any previous chapter, even ignoring the extra effort of redesigns with arms and legs at the end. So taking a break as in, "Less art to worry about" makes sense. I was just, I dunno, being snarky for the sake of it.

If I had one suggestion, it would be that at the outset of a chapter make it very clear what the protagonists want to attain, and then make that goal beyond their ability to acquire easily.

I'll try to point to places you've done this well in the past; Chapter 1, which was brilliant in a lot of ways did this masterfully. The characters were very clear about what they wanted out of the manse, and the setup was such that none save Secret could use their powers with abandon. I really could go on and on about everything Chapter 1 did right, but for all I'd have to say about it, it wouldn't be more clear than that.

While I've complained in the past that Chapter 2 didn't let the readers know what they were searching for even though the characters knew, it doesn't really matter that much what it was in terms of plotting. Marena could've been looking for the greatest masseuse in the world and it would still be clear that the protagonists were looking for something. The plot would've still been Characters get sidetracked looking for X, Secret goes looking for characters and stumbles upon X, they all meet up in Act 3. I feel like the biggest problem of Chapter 2 was that it was unclear what the obstacles were.

Now, in the conflict with the Fair Folk, the outset still made it clear what the protagonists wanted, but unfortunately as it developed it was clear that their ability far exceeded the task. The Nemen Yi plot was the opposite, unclear what the protagonists wanted, very clear their abilities alone were not up to the task.

The chapter 4 Sorcery Initiation plot... oh hell, it's almost 2:00 AM, I really need to get to bed. Maybe I'll read through the arc in one go and see what I think of it and if I can put into words any constructive criticism.

[Weimann]

For me, chapter 4 was possibly the second best chapter to date, surpassed only be chapter 1.

One big reason why I read Keychain is exactly this character-centric philosophy, where the protagonists are slowly revealed to the audience. This arc has really lifted forth Misho, I feel, who had otherwise been left behind Marena and Secret for screen-time. I like that a lot; this arc showed that there is some Solar oomph behind his pleasant demeanour, and I totally love his mystic side. I am thrilled to see his persona further explored, as I'm sure we will.

That said, as has been pointed out, it should be possible to weave character exploration into a Key-hunting arc, and not have to separate them clinically. I mean, it's just getting a bit silly. I agree that the Siddie arc was a definite Key-related moment, but I still found it somewhat lacking for the same reasons that Jerthanis put forth; it was all a reaction on the Keychain's part. It still wasn't them looking, you feel me?

[lord_khaine]

I dont feel its that important that everything revolves around the hunt for the key's, if anything we have seen that a lot of the keys are currently more safe where they are at the moment, and i find it quite interesting to explore the general world of exalted.

[Weimann]

I dont feel its that important that everything revolves around the hunt for the key's, if anything we have seen that a lot of the keys are currently more safe where they are at the moment, and i find it quite interesting to explore the general world of exalted.

In a lot of ways, I share this opinion, but we are told in the beginning that "o**** stuff's really flipping the heck out right now we must totally remedy this like now" (ok, maybe not that urgent, but it's still saving the world we are talking about). As I said, the story is carried excellently by the characters, but if you make such a proclamation at the start, it should probably be a part of the story now and then.

[Jukashi]

Originally my intent was to have Key-focused and "sidequest"-focused arcs interspersed; so Manse (Key) was first, then Fae + Nova (sidequests), then Nemen Yi (Key) then Sorcery + ??? (sidequests), then ???? (Key), then etc. etc. etc. With a few smaller stories interspersed throughout, like Marena's backstory, visiting with the Lion, stand-alone pages and so on.

I'm thinking now that maybe this is more like the progression of a game than a story, but on the other hand more than half the reason for the whole Key plot in the first place is to act as a vessel for the exploration of the world and the characters.