Strongest Base class

[Greenish]

In particular, the more you allow literalistic RAW readings of core rules and the more you allow cherry-picking of additional spells on top of core, the more it tends to benefit the already more-flexible spellcaster over his less-flexible brethren.

This isn't to argue "if you can fix it, it isn't broken," this is to say "the more complex and flexible a mechanic is, the more important it is to have an actual DM to referee it."

I don't know, you don't need hugely literalistic reading to make Gate or Planar Binding make the non-casters redundant.

Also, tier system is nice for avoiding huge power disparities.

[Wings of Peace]

I'm going to have to go with the Spell to Power Erudite. In terms of versatility you have a degree of sponteneity while maintaining a level of versatility that, if taken to it's extreme can encompass every spell and power in the game.

That, and I'm a sucker for anything that lets a Warforged store his Psycrystal in his body and create an Affinity Field->Synchronicity Loop with his psi-crystal. To me it's more elegant than the arcane equivalent of looping Celerities.

[Frosty]

any more bear puns, and there will be pandamonium.

[tiercel]

I don't know, you don't need hugely literalistic reading to make Gate or Planar Binding make the non-casters redundant.

Also, tier system is nice for avoiding huge power disparities.

Well, I'm not going to try and even argue with gate, because it's gate and also because there's almost nothing a nonspellcaster can do at level 17-18 that is anywhere near as awesomely destructive as many 9th level spells.

As for planar binding... well... if a player can just have his character bind and order around critters at will, without anything ever going wrong (escape or any kind of subversion or ill-will coming back to haunt them) then it's kind of a matter of the DM not living up to the genre. People who bind creatures against their will willy-nilly are *itching* for karmic retribution of some kind and the DM is in charge of karma.

(And if we are talking about the old planar binding for wishes thing, if such a thing were possible in a campaign world, someone would have done it before the PCs.)

I'm not saying the tier thing is useless, I'm just saying that a lot of people look at building characters from a 20-level standpoint, when a lot of actual campaigns take place much of their time well down in the single-digit levels. Wizards don't render half of all other characters obsolete instantly just by being rolled up at level 1, and clerics (while undoubtedly strong) aren't unavoidably and instantly ClericZilla (especially without DMM: Persist + nightsticks).

Yes, you have to be careful even at low-to-mid levels about mixing pure spellcasting and less/no-spellcasting characters in the same party, but that's a function of spellcasters simply having more specific tricks available which are either abusable or broken. It just comes back to "the higher the level, the more spellcasting wins."

[Tavar]

If they do so, it's their failing, not the tier system. If one actually reads it, the creator mentions how this is mainly looking at more mid-game levels. I forget the exact range, but I believe he says from around 3rd to 10th. Of course, that's still a large portion of the range you're talking about.

(And if we are talking about the old planar binding for wishes thing, if such a thing were possible in a campaign world, someone would have done it before the PCs.)

Before ~1903 man wasn't able to do powered flight. Obviously, that still holds true today....

[Theodoxus]

Really? You just compared spellcasting to powered flight?

I want to play in your game, where I am the first wizard evar!

Btw, strongest is really broad. I mean, straight up combat? I'd take druid. But for social? A nice diplomancer will go much farther. For a skulking game, rogue at lower levels and factotum at higher - though beguiler works really well if you're facing humanoids. (I'd prefer factotum if it's a pure dungeon crawl where you're facing mindless undead and oozes and such.)

So, less generalities and more specifics.

Oh, and usually a level 1 charging fighter with power attack and a greatsword will win against any tier 1 class - guaranteed if they win initiative. So level matters when comparing these in a pvp fashion.

[hamishspence]

any more bear puns, and there will be pandamonium.

Yes- to minimise groans, puns need to be of good koalaty.

[Tavar]

Really? You just compared spellcasting to powered flight?

I want to play in your game, where I am the first wizard evar!

Strawman in 3, 2, 1...

I'm not saying that. Merely arguing against using "if it were possible someone else would have done it" as a justification.

Oh, and usually a level 1 charging fighter with power attack and a greatsword will win against any tier 1 class - guaranteed if they win initiative. So level matters when comparing these in a pvp fashion.

Unless they miss. ON the other hand, if the Tier 1 class wins Init and throws, say, color spray, then the Fighter has a very good change of dieing. Level 1 and to an extent level 2 are rocket tag, plain and simple.

[Lans]

Well, technically not at-will, if only in the sense that the Law of Repetition (or whatever it's called) will eventually build up to the point where it'll be impossible for you to make the Truespeak check. That could be a long time, though, and thus a lot of gates....


EDIT: Oh, and as noted, the Law of Sequence, keeping you at 1 gate at a time. The wizard gets as many as he has 9th level slots to spend on them.

Actually, a truenamer can heighten its spells to get around that. It also diverts law of resistance in that it goes at 0,+2,+4,+4,+6,+6,+8,+8,+8

[DragoonWraith]

Actually, a truenamer can heighten its spells to get around that. It also diverts law of resistance in that it goes at 0,+2,+4,+4,+6,+6,+8,+8,+8

According to an extremely suspect ruling that I'm not sure anyone honestly believes is RAI. Not that the Truenamer couldn't use it; he can use anything he can get. But seriously, you really think a heightened Utterance doesn't count as the same Utterance for the sake of the Law of Resistance?

[Lans]

According to an extremely suspect ruling that I'm not sure anyone honestly believes is RAI. Not that the Truenamer couldn't use it; he can use anything he can get. But seriously, you really think a heightened Utterance doesn't count as the same Utterance for the sake of the Law of Resistance?

I would say that the wording is quite clear.

[Il_Vec]

I would say that the wording is quite clear.

Only if you also consider Enervation and Heightened Enervation different spells. But, I did not expect to see Truenamer in a most powerful class discussion.

[Lans]

Only if you also consider Enervation and Heightened Enervation different spells. But, I did not expect to see Truenamer in a most powerful class discussion.

Is their a quote that says this is the case? Because with utterances their is a passage that says exactly that.