GitP/ChHa Server Thread IV: For Science. You Monster.

[SciurusDoomus]

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=FQOW5PK3

My demo. All those who play sniper even a fair amount are welcome to comment.

EDIT: Ignore the last two, just look at the first.

[ZeroNumerous]

You have ridden a unicorn before, right?

Don't unicorns only approach virgins?

[Arbitrarity]

The third one was the first I watched. It was sad. You suffered from tunnel vision when you knew there was a spy around, you can't aim your SMG at all, and your best shot (you had one in 4 minutes of gameplay) was a snapshot on surikesu. Your only other headshot was on an immobile engineer, and the only kill beyond those was hunting down poor Treayn along with a medic and another sniper.
And agh, rapidshare refuses to let me download the others for now.

[SciurusDoomus]

The third one was the first I watched. It was sad. You suffered from tunnel vision when you knew there was a spy around, you can't aim your SMG at all, and your best shot (you had one in 4 minutes of gameplay) was a snapshot on surikesu. Your only other headshot was on an immobile engineer, and the only kill beyond those was hunting down poor Treayn along with a medic and another sniper.
And agh, rapidshare refuses to let me download the others for now.

I've gotten comfortable with the fact that I suck, but do you have any suggestions on how to practice? I know the SMG thing is easy to fix. And if the problem persists with the downloads, I'll re-upload them tomorrow.

[Arbitrarity]

Nah. Rapidshare stops you from downloading consecutive files.
I just played sniper for 20 mins or so on SHAFT (KOTH_Sawmill). Demo

I think... you are playing a less-than great sniper map, first. You aren't getting good sightlines, so you can take long shots. Sawmill has some nice shot spots.

I learned to snipe from months of counter-sniping. It relies on putting the crosshairs by the target's head, zooming quickly (after they shoot), then firing as soon as the shot looks viable. I practice sniping against people, or occasionally on strafing/jumping Walkway bots (who are a bit predictable, but it helps with timing, so you shoot as the target passes through crosshairs)

I tend to be a bit inconsistent against non-snipers, however. Sometimes, with predictable (linear) movements, or just lucky shots, I get headshots, but they aren't exactly common. I can't rely on them, though I try (zooming on pyro, trying for headshot)
Consider playing on maps with better sightlines and a few more people (i.e badwater). While you might not think long-range picking helps with close quarters, it teaches the basic lessons of sniping. Who you can consistently hit, and general aim.
For closer quarters, you need to practice quickly tracking targets and making shots. Noscopes are important, but trying for close-quarters headshots is mostly flashy, and not likely to work. Practicing SMG tracking is also key, though I normally use Jarate. I found the SMG invaluable in that game, however, so I guess I should go back to it.

[ZeroNumerous]

And if the problem persists with the downloads, I'll re-upload them tomorrow.

I would suggest MegaUpload or MediaFire, both of which have more lenient download limits than Rapidshare.

[SciurusDoomus]

I would suggest MegaUpload or MediaFire, both of which have more lenient download limits than Rapidshare.

And I can't log into Rapidshare anymore. I used to have an account that wasn't Premium, but it was still an account. I guess they got rid of those since I last used the site...

[Treayn]

Time for some screenshot dumps, Thanks to the swamp theme I finally got the lighting I wanted for my map plus some other neat props. I added the access to the roof.

Spoiler

Show

A helpful tip:

To align the texture right, so it doesn't look too weird, find a properly-textured surface, select it, and then alt+right click the face you want to align it to.
[HR]


Also Scurius, I'll look at the demos tomorrow.

[SciurusDoomus]

Also Scurius, I'll look at the demos tomorrow.

Don't look at the third one. I thought I had deleted it, and it's tripe. The first one is the latest and reflects my best -though admittedly still not good- work.

[Arbitrarity]

I'll take a look tomorrow morning. For now, bed.

[Byrnbot08]

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My demo. All those who play sniper even a fair amount are welcome to comment.

EDIT: Ignore the last two, just look at the first.

I can't see anything to click on Doomus. It would be nice if I could, right?

PS: From what Arb has said, I think your problem is the whole aiming/timing thing. I fully endorse his suggestions.

Sniper Rifle Training for me, mostly consists of long range shots on Payload maps against real people. Sniping's key strength is chokepoint control. You can effectively slow/stop movement at a key choke easily with the rifle, and Payload maps have many chokes. Practice with the rifle, keeping it leveled at neck line for Sniper/Heavy. Twitch up or down accordingly.

I see alot of "I must headshot him" mentality about on lots of public servers. Waste of time and bullets. Charge your shots if possible, go for bodyshots on wounded/engaged/light targets. Waste of time to go for a fully charged headshot on Medic or Scout. If you have a charged shot, go for the body shot.

SMGs. Keep it tight, one major problem wih the SMG is the whole 'spray and pray' so commonly associated with it. TF2 SMGs are accurate, dangerous beasts upclose. Burst fire, and don't be afraid to pull off single shots at range. Your SMG has an excellent damage falloff if used correctly, so don't go full auto at medium distance. At close range, it can shred lighter classes and take down Soldiers and Demomen who are unaware/

[Azimer the Mad]

[QUOTE=Byrnbot08;8952820I see alot of "I must headshot him" mentality about on lots of public servers. Waste of time and bullets. Charge your shots if possible, go for bodyshots on wounded/engaged/light targets. Waste of time to go for a fully charged headshot on Medic or Scout. If you have a charged shot, go for the body shot.[/QUOTE]

THIS TIMES A GOOGOLPLEX. No one cares what percentage of kills are headshots if you keep the cart from moving.

[Dispozition]

I see alot of "I must headshot him" mentality about on lots of public servers. Waste of time and bullets. Charge your shots if possible, go for bodyshots on wounded/engaged/light targets. Waste of time to go for a fully charged headshot on Medic or Scout. If you have a charged shot, go for the body shot.

Thing is, I feel I'm not actually playing well unless I'm getting those headshots. I agree, on scouts or medics, the body shot is generally more practical since they're a lot faster, but almost every other class should be a headshot. Heavies should only be headshots because of their health.

My attitude might also stem from the fact that I'm a very snapshot sniper. I'll only sit and charge if I need to take out an overhealed class, soldiers I'll only charge for the second I need, heavies I take out medic then do a slight charged shot then a non charged one. I can't sit there and aim at someones head waiting for it to charge or I lose the shot, always. If I'm consciously aiming I can't hit. I'm a bit weird like that (:

However, I won't say I'm an expert on the class, or even good at it...So don't pay attention to what I'm saying :)

[Byrnbot08]

Thing is, I feel I'm not actually playing well unless I'm getting those headshots. I agree, on scouts or medics, the body shot is generally more practical since they're a lot faster, but almost every other class should be a headshot. Heavies should only be headshots because of their health.

My attitude might also stem from the fact that I'm a very snapshot sniper. I'll only sit and charge if I need to take out an overhealed class, soldiers I'll only charge for the second I need, heavies I take out medic then do a slight charged shot then a non charged one. I can't sit there and aim at someones head waiting for it to charge or I lose the shot, always. If I'm consciously aiming I can't hit. I'm a bit weird like that (:

However, I won't say I'm an expert on the class, or even good at it...So don't pay attention to what I'm saying :)

By all means, go ahead! There are so many ways to play a class, there is no one right way to enjoy it.

I am a support Sniper, I kill people, so that my teammates can pursue the objective better. I enjoy it, because it makes me happy to assist my team handle difficult opponents. I feel I am playing well when my team plays well.

• I kill the Medic and anyone he is healing, to deny the enemy a valuable asset.
• I kill Snipers, to allow my team to move up and to allow myself more space to work with.
• I kill the weak, injured and distracted, to thin the enemy ranks and prevent them from returning to battle.
• I suppress enemy movement, to give my team a tactical advantage.

It's plain to see that when I'm alone/outnumbered, I simply cannot function. I require teammates to take up the brunt of the fight, distract tough opponents and to cover for my mistakes. For example, Heavies firing their guns at me are disrupting my aim, I need teammates to distract them and pick them off.

[Volatar]

Well, I am back! I seem to have missed a whole lot while I was away

[potatocubed]

You're lucky. It's almost acceptable to play engineer again.

[SciurusDoomus]

I'm willing to put up a server for the ChHa 2, though leaving it on all the time might pose a problem. I'll work it out later. Anyway, I have a computer that's running Ubuntu and I'm almost ready to put a dedicated TF2 server on it. I live on the East Coast, so players in the US and UK are pretty much equidistant from me, meaning everyone would have if not good, then decent ping. The offer stands, PM me.

EDIT: This computer may or may not work, I need to fool around with it.

[Byrnbot08]

After a proper look at Doomus' demo, I have to say, very good information gleaned from it.

Treayn is exceedingly good at Spy. Doomus, I'd advise taking a shot or two, then switching to Jarate or SMG to pop a few rounds at places he may be. Resume sniping after aswing or two of yer Kukri. I too have problems dealing with Treayn, so this is a common occurence for us Snipers.

Doomus, you're doing well with tracking your targets, though I feel that your twitch may need a bit more work. You seem to be over-twitching the rifle when taking a shot. Adjusting sensitivity a teensy bit down may work well for you.

Wasting bullets with your SMG. Again, keep the spread close and burst fire. Keep the thing trained on centre mass, and don't fire unless you can see your target. Its a waste of bullets.

I like the general movement and shooting technique though, so that should serve you well. Resist the temptation to charge Treayn with your rifle though. He can fire faster, more often and more easily than you. Stand your ground and seek the assistance of teammates to cover/assist you in dealing with Spies, as they excel at taking out lone targets.

[SciurusDoomus]

After a proper look at Doomus' demo, I have to say, very good information gleaned from it.

Treayn is exceedingly good at Spy. Doomus, I'd advise taking a shot or two, then switching to Jarate or SMG to pop a few rounds at places he may be. Resume sniping after aswing or two of yer Kukri. I too have problems dealing with Treayn, so this is a common occurence for us Snipers.

Doomus, you're doing well with tracking your targets, though I feel that your twitch may need a bit more work. You seem to be over-twitching the rifle when taking a shot. Adjusting sensitivity a teensy bit down may work well for you.

Wasting bullets with your SMG. Again, keep the spread close and burst fire. Keep the thing trained on centre mass, and don't fire unless you can see your target. Its a waste of bullets.

I like the general movement and shooting technique though, so that should serve you well. Resist the temptation to charge Treayn with your rifle though. He can fire faster, more often and more easily than you. Stand your ground and seek the assistance of teammates to cover/assist you in dealing with Spies, as they excel at taking out lone targets.

Thanks, Byrn. I'll keep that all in mind, especially the sensitivity thing. I also read up a bit on the SMG (the way it spreads), so that'll help me become a better spychecker. Watch out, Treayn.

[Scuzzball]

I'm willing to put up a server for the ChHa 2, though leaving it on all the time might pose a problem. I'll work it out later. Anyway, I have a computer that's running Ubuntu and I'm almost ready to put a dedicated TF2 server on it. I live on the East Coast, so players in the US and UK are pretty much equidistant from me, meaning everyone would have if not good, then decent ping. The offer stands, PM me.

EDIT: This computer may or may not work, I need to fool around with it.

Same, except the server I have won't work. Once I figure out how to install it on the server that acts as my router, webserver and ftp host, and probably some other things. Oh, and I have a forum. I doubt it will ever be used.

[SciurusDoomus]

About where do you live, Scuzz? If we both have a server ready, we can set them both up for players in different parts of the world. For instance, if you live in the Middle of the US, you can service Western and mid-US players while I can service Eastern and UK players. Plus, we need admin consent and I need to INSTALL LINUX PROPERLY ON THE DAMNED THING.

[Arbitrarity]

Yeah, as I thought. Your shot timing is terrible. Watching first map's initial recording, you aim and predict about right, but you can't time the shot to actually hit people often. (written as I watch the demo)
Your situational awareness needs work. Around 7:50, you see a sniper dot, but don't really react, while Surikesu goes to hunt him down. That sort of thing can get you killed. Surikesu basically carries.
Around 11:30, you basically get target practice: Snipers in scope who aren't shooting at you or moving, and a heavy not firing at you. Again, you somehow can't hit them. Consider practicing on immobile targets?

Whoever said to burst fire the SMG is silly. Unless you're not tracking the player, or aiming at them, there is no reason to burst fire. 1.25 second delay gives you one bullet with perfect accuracy. At SMG range, that's unecessary. Shortly after, you get killed by a long range DH rocket, because you apparently don't need to get health packs. You learn that lesson quickly You totally luck out at 16:45, just running into Valaquil deliberately. You shouldn't survive that sort of encounter normally.
And later, he's just strafing. He doesn't jump or anything, just runs back and forth in moderate length strides. Not that hard a target.
And later, you see Surikesu die to an arrow running to top right corner, and don't register it means there's a sniper up there. As Treayn mentions, you need to be aware of those.
Nice shot at 21:55, and a few seconds later. When edging sentries, you only need to see a tiny bit, stop strafing. You were probably trying to tap the cart though. Kind of a hard spot to be in. Nice work after 24:00, defensive sniping with teammates is easier. Defending the cart is easier than other objectives, because your enemies tend to take cover and stop moving. Just need a good angle.
You also start actually lining up and getting headshots after a while, admittedly on targets walking straight towards you.You don't make those shots consistently though, consider practicing them (walkway?). Also, firing on bots running perpendicular isn't bad practice for dealing with the common long range situation of players running in straight lines perpendicular to your sightline.

Bleah to whoever recommends bodyshots on weakened and light targets. If you have a full-charged shot, and you hit someone in the body with it, you better KNOW it will kill. Either way, you just did the same as a snap headshot, but invested 5 or more seconds into it (including reload time. I know charging is 4 seconds).
Also, as a sniper, you should be picking KEY targets. That's medics, snipers, the heavy combat classes, and possibly engineers, in most engagement situations (and good players, if you know who they are. Still, role prioritization works pretty effectively). Those targets are slower, and tend to be harder to engage for other classes (owing to health and offensive power, or distance). In most cases, charged headshots work better than charged bodyshots for killing the heavier classes. Demos, soldiers, heavies, and even pyros are fairly easy targets. Medics are hard, and that's where bodyshots come in, normally. Snipers are slow if you're doing it right, and they're using rifle. (wait for them to shoot, zoom while they're slowed, fire). Engineers tend to stand still, because they are terrible. Scouts and spies sort of counter you, not just because they flank, but because their combat styles encourage evasive movement, and they have decent speed.
Also, you can take 4 tries at getting a headshot, vs 1 charged bodyshot for the timeframe. I'd rather take the headshots, because they deal more potential damage, they don't leave me NEARLY as vulnerable as charging, and I can probably make them. This may change depending on circumstance, such as overhealed heavies or soldiers.

[Valaqil]

You totally luck out at 16:45, just running into Valaquil deliberately. You shouldn't survive that sort of encounter normally.
And later, he's just strafing. He doesn't jump or anything, just runs back and forth in moderate length strides. Not that hard a target.

Yeah, I was in a bad mood and playing terribly last night. I eventually just gave up. I should have killed him more.

[SciurusDoomus]

Yeah, I was in a bad mood and playing terribly last night. I eventually just gave up. I should have killed him more.

I was wondering why I didn't die fifteen times... Ah, well.

[Byrnbot08]

Well... I concede to Arb with some of the points there.

Even if you get scratched, you need health. Every point counts.

Sentries can be edged, but Arb is right, you only need a small glimpse. Don't expect to kill it quickly though, and if an Engie is nearby, you best fall back or aim for him instead.

Personally, I tend to keep my distance Arb. As such, spraying my SMG is less effective than bursting it. If I even use the SMG. Jarate is used more often, mostly to support teammates/use along with the kukri/shiv.

Charged body shots require knowledge and abuse of the stats as well as keen observational skills. I know I can chargeshot an unhealed scout, engie, medic, sniper and spy. I know I need to headshot other targets to be effective, but am still not so good at the whole headshot tracking (yet).

Again, I am not a combat Sniper, but a support Sniper, I help others by lowering health, eliminating tough targets and killing stragglers.

I understand where this is coming from. I myself 'know' only what I do, and it may be a bit hard to explain when my technique comes from instinct.

[Arbitrarity]

Well... I concede to Arb with some of the points there.

Even if you get scratched, you need health. Every point counts.

Sentries can be edged, but Arb is right, you only need a small glimpse. Don't expect to kill it quickly though, and if an Engie is nearby, you best fall back or aim for him instead.

Personally, I tend to keep my distance Arb. As such, spraying my SMG is less effective than bursting it. If I even use the SMG. Jarate is used more often, mostly to support teammates/use along with the kukri/shiv.

Charged body shots require knowledge and abuse of the stats as well as keen observational skills. I know I can chargeshot an unhealed scout, engie, medic, sniper and spy. I know I need to headshot other targets to be effective, but am still not so good at the whole headshot tracking (yet).

Again, I am not a combat Sniper, but a support Sniper, I help others by lowering health, eliminating tough targets and killing stragglers.

I understand where this is coming from. I myself 'know' only what I do, and it may be a bit hard to explain when my technique comes from instinct.

Bursting SMG is a waste of time, if you can get noscopes at that range. To actually get the "burst" benefit, perfect accuracy on the first shot, takes 1.25 seconds of not firing. Reloading the rifle takes 1.2 seconds. You can get the noscope for 50, or the single accurate bullet for 4-8. If you're using the SMG, you probably should just hold the trigger down, unless you're having difficulty tracking, or swap to rifle, depending on range. And ammo conservation is useless, since the rifle has a TON of ammo, and getting more isn't that hard. Sometimes I run out of ammo, but it's mostly when I have an awesome position, and seriously disrupt my opponents.

On sentries: You can kill level 1 with an exactly fully charged shot. You can kill a level 2 with an almost fully charged shot and a noscope. You can kill a level 3 with a 3/4 charged shot and 2 noscopes. Mini-sentries are a 1/2 charge shot (this takes ~2.5 seconds in scope), or 2 noscopes. (which takes 1.2 seconds)

Charging your shots on sentries is wise if the engineer isn't that close to his sentry, since it gives you a shot at following up and finishing the sentry before he can repair it.
Also, I liked my demo I swapped to SMG just to be similar, but I forgot how effective it was. Jarate is nice, but the midrange combat benefits of the SMG are actually amazing.

I am a combat sniper. I help my team by killing people, as often and quickly as I can. My job is to kill critical targets, and weaken if I can't kill. I do this by running around rapidly, picking off snipers, immobile targets, and heavier classes. If I don't have time to charge, I snapshot. I am a more effective countersniper, and can often get shots when other snipers are camping by being unafraid to move up. I tend to die more, though. I am a mobile platform of FEAR. If you see me, you better take cover.
Essentially, the real difference is camping. Combat snipers tend to run around and fire uncharged shots, support snipers tend to sit in the back and charge. It's the difference between this guy and this guy. Both methods have their place, but I prefer to take whichever is more useful at the time. Camping works when the enemy is pushing, but when our team pushes, I need to get to a spot where I can keep picking enemy team members.

[Scuzzball]

About where do you live, Scuzz? If we both have a server ready, we can set them both up for players in different parts of the world. For instance, if you live in the Middle of the US, you can service Western and mid-US players while I can service Eastern and UK players. Plus, we need admin consent and I need to INSTALL LINUX PROPERLY ON THE DAMNED THING.

Eastern US,(Vermont) and I don't know if I can actually install it on the box, not to mention processing power(It's a server my robotics club USED to use for something, and they ended up giving it away, to me) and bandwidth. So if we just use your server for extra stuff for now, I'll use the one I have but can't run often for testing.

[SciurusDoomus]

Eastern US,(Vermont) and I don't know if I can actually install it on the box, not to mention processing power(It's a server my robotics club USED to use for something, and they ended up giving it away, to me) and bandwidth. So if we just use your server for extra stuff for now, I'll use the one I have but can't run often for testing.

Gotcha. I still have to wipe it and install Ubuntu. I'm caught between using the Desktop or Server editions, though. I also need a stable place to store it. Somewhere it can keep cool throughout the summer and also have an internet connection.

[Phantom123]

Just a comment for Doomus...

Everyone is telling you about target priority (Medics, heavies, if they are good then snipers, etc etc). Allow me to make a comment on that, from a spy and ex-sniper regular.

It's all incredibly situational. Yes, even killing the medic. By and large, that IS what you want. HOWEVER, sometimes it either can't be done, or it's not the best idea. Take KOTH_Sawmill. Heavy, medic, and 2 soldiers are rushing the point from their side. I happen to be behind 'em. The medic is good enough to keep looking around, as are the soldiers. However, right when medic is about to go attack me, my team shows up, and he has to focus on keeping his guys alive. I COULD take the medic out, but it's best to save that for my team, or for pistol. It's much wiser to kill the heavy and soldiers if possible, as they are the ones killing my teammates. In the end, it's more important for YOU to have living teammates than for them to have a dead medic; even the best medic is pretty weak if it's favorite targets are dead.

When One Tasty sammich has medics on him, I just kill him. His medics are usually easy pickings afterward. If I killed the medics first, he'd either here it and turn around (and I'd have to deadring, since I've tested this before), or I'd probably have to deal with other teammates. A heavy can easily alert teammates when you're fake, particularly if he has a mic. Medics can't follow too much; it's too east for you to get range and pistol 'em; a heavy doesn't get that. You practically HAVE to backstab him, unless you catch him by surprise with some damage on him.

[SciurusDoomus]

Just a comment for Doomus...

Everyone is telling you about target priority (Medics, heavies, if they are good then snipers, etc etc). Allow me to make a comment on that, from a spy and ex-sniper regular.

It's all incredibly situational. Yes, even killing the medic. By and large, that IS what you want. HOWEVER, sometimes it either can't be done, or it's not the best idea. Take KOTH_Sawmill. Heavy, medic, and 2 soldiers are rushing the point from their side. I happen to be behind 'em. The medic is good enough to keep looking around, as are the soldiers. However, right when medic is about to go attack me, my team shows up, and he has to focus on keeping his guys alive. I COULD take the medic out, but it's best to save that for my team, or for pistol. It's much wiser to kill the heavy and soldiers if possible, as they are the ones killing my teammates. In the end, it's more important for YOU to have living teammates than for them to have a dead medic; even the best medic is pretty weak if it's favorite targets are dead.

When One Tasty sammich has medics on him, I just kill him. His medics are usually easy pickings afterward. If I killed the medics first, he'd either here it and turn around (and I'd have to deadring, since I've tested this before), or I'd probably have to deal with other teammates. A heavy can easily alert teammates when you're fake, particularly if he has a mic. Medics can't follow too much; it's too east for you to get range and pistol 'em; a heavy doesn't get that. You practically HAVE to backstab him, unless you catch him by surprise with some damage on him.

Yep. I tend to prioritize targets based on who they are rather than what they're playing. Any class can be the deadliest, so taking out the player becomes far more important.