Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

[Gorgondantess]

How about something like this:

"Given the choice between confronting two evils, the paladin must confront the one which would do the greatest harm if left unchecked. He must always act for the greater good, even if it very occasionally means letting a lesser evil go unchecked for a period of time."

Obviously, this is just a draft, typed in about two minutes, but it's a start.

No. A better one would be, given the choice between confronting two evils, the paladin should do his best to confront both.
Like I said, I want no pragmatism in the paladin's code.

[Vulaas]

Perhaps, "A paladin must do his best to uphold righteous authority wherever he goes, and make himself available as a lawful figure for resolving conflicts." might work?

[Gorgondantess]

Perhaps, "A paladin must do his best to uphold righteous authority wherever he goes, and make himself available as a lawful figure for resolving conflicts." might work?

Fantastic. I'll use that.

Anyways, I'm currently working on a Real Paladin PrC called the "Pragmatic". It'll be... sortof a blackguard. Stay tuned!

[DaragosKitsune]

I'm going to guess the Pragmatic will be less of a "Hail Asmodeus" blackguard and more of a "The Ends Always Justify The Means" character.

[Gorgondantess]

I'm going to guess the Pragmatic will be less of a "Hail Asmodeus" blackguard and more of a "The Ends Always Justify The Means" character.

...Sortof. It'll be interesting.

[BladeofOblivion]

Actually, that sounds rather similar to a grey guard.

[Roc Ness]

No it doesn't! Pragmatic's got a P in it and doesn't end in guard!

But seriously, I look forward to seeing the pragmatic.

[Gorgondantess]

The Pragmatic


Requirements:
Alignment: True Neutral
Knowledge: Religion 11 ranks
Abilities: Holy Strike

When a paladin falls, he falls hard. This doesn't mean he decides he likes the taste of babies- one who was once such a great servant of good rarely turns to such decadent, senseless evil. When a paladin falls, he may still try to do good, but lacking everything that once made him a paladin- the dedication to an ideal. The Pragmatic is practical and realistic to the core- cold, calculating, and mechanical, every Pragmatic still tries to serve the greater good... but how he tends to varies, once things like "good" and "evil" prove to be two sides to the same coin. The pragmatic has forsaken alignment to do what he needs to do, finding his ideal in gritty, realistic practicality.

Any who hold onto these ideals as he once did are both foolish and dangerous, an anathema to the Pragmatic.

HD: d8
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|

+1

|

+0

|

+0

|

+2

|Alignment Dead|2

2nd|

+2

|

+0

|

+0

|

+3

|DR 2|3|0

3rd|

+3

|

+1

|

+1

|

+3

|Bonus Feat|3|1|0

4th|

+4

|

+1

|

+1

|

+4

|DR 4|3|2|1|0

5th|

+5

|

+1

|

+1

|

+4

|Angel Slayer, Demon Slayer|4|3|2|1|0

6th|

+6/+1

|

+2

|

+2

|

+5

|DR 6|4|3|3|2|1|0

7th|

+7/+2

|

+2

|

+2

|

+5

|Bonus Feat|5|3|3|3|2|1|0

8th|

+8/+3

|

+2

|

+2

|

+6

|DR 8|5|4|3|3|3|2|1|0

9th|

+9/+4

|

+3

|

+3

|

+6

|Heartless|5|4|4|3|3|3|2|1|0

10th|

+10/+5

|

+3

|

+3

|

+7

|Soulless, DR 10|5|5|4|4|3|3|3|2|1
[/table]

Proficiencies: The Pragmatic is proficient in simple & martial weapons.

Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (Any), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, UMD.

Skill Points/Level: 6+int modifier.

Spellcasting: A Pragmatic casts spells drawn from the Pragmatic spell list. He's mastered the theories of these spells much as a wizard would, though they are technically divine. He embraces all aspects of each individual spell, recognizing it as a tool, not a matter of faith.

To prepare or cast a spell, a Pragmatic must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Pragmatic’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Pragmatic’s Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a Pragmatic can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the table above. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.

A Pragmatic must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour in quiet focus. A Pragmatic may prepare and cast any spell on the Pragmatic spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

Each spell on the Pragmatic spell list is linked to another by a slash: the Pragmatic prepares both of these spells in one spell slot, and chooses which one to use at the time of casting.

Spell List:

Spoiler

Show

Level 1: Inflict Light Wounds/Cure Light Wounds, Bane/Bless, Cause Fear/Remove Fear, Identify/Magic Aura, Curse Water/Bless Water, Enlarge Person/Reduce Person, Protection From Alignment,
Level 2: Inflict Moderate Wounds/Cure Moderate Wounds, Consecrate/Desecrate, Remove Paralysis/Hold Person, Shatter/Make Whole, Darkness/Daylight, Blindness/Deafness//Remove Blindness/Deafness, Invisibility/See Invisibility, Silence/Sound Burst, Rage/Calm Emotions,
Level 3: Magic Circle Against Alignment, Bestow Curse/Remove Curse, Locate Object/Misdirection, Invisibility Sphere/Invisibility Purge, Haste/Slow, Inflict Serious Wounds/Cure Serious Wounds,
Level 4: Wall of Fire/Wall of Ice, Freedom of Movement/Hold Monster, Discern Lies/Glibness, Poison/Neutralize Poison, Dimensional Anchor/Dimension Door, Inflict Critical Wounds/Cure Critical Wounds
Level 5: Passwall/Wall of Stone, Disintegrate/Major Creation, Break Enchantment/Dominate Person, Polymorph/Baleful Polymorph, Hallow/Unhallow, Inflict Light Wounds (Mass)/Cure Light Wounds (mass), Dismissal/Plane Shift
Level 6: Permanency/Greater Dispel Magic, True Seeing/Veil, Stone to Flesh/Flesh to Stone, Undeath to Death/Circle of Death, Heal/Harm, Cure Moderate Wounds (mass)/Inflict Moderate Wounds (mass)
Level 7: Dictum/Word of Chaos, Blasphemy/Holy Word, Regenerate/Destruction, Inflict Serious Wounds (mass)/Cure Serious Wounds (mass), Waves of Exhaustion/Heroism, Greater
Level 8: Dimensional Lock/Greater Teleport, Shield of Law/Cloak of Chaos, Unholy Aura/Holy Aura, Greater Spell Immunity/Spell Turning, ICW (mass)/CCW (mass)
Level 9: Soul Bind/True Resurrection, Time Stop/Foresight, Imprisonment/Freedom, Heal (mass)/Harm (mass)

Alignment Dead: The Pragmatic is considered to not have a charisma score: any skill or ability checks keyed off of charisma are keyed off of intelligence instead, and class abilities keyed off of charisma (such as turn undead or certain spellcasting progressions) simply don't work. The Pragmatic adds his charisma bonus (pre falling, and not counting any enhancement or inherent bonuses) as a permanent untyped bonus to his intelligence score.
Ability damage or drain to charisma simply does nothing.
In addition, the Pragmatic is always considered to have whatever alignment would be most beneficial to him at the time- for example, if hit by a blasphemy spell, he would be considered to have an evil alignment. If struck by a holy weapon, he would be considered to have a good alignment.

Damage Reduction: The Pragmatic gains DR /Unaligned (as in an attack without an alignment descriptor) of an amount described in the table above.

Bonus Feat: The Pragmatic may gain any Vile or Exalted feat he qualifies for as a bonus feat.

Angel Slayer, Demon Slayer: The Pragmatic gains the effects of the Favored Enemy ability, applying to all outsiders of any sort.

Heartless: The Pragmatic's faith in a lack of faith manifests itself in his own physiology: he gains the living construct type, though he naturally heals as normal.

Soulless: The Pragmatic abandons any holiness or righteousness altogether, falling off the radar of divinity: he becomes immune to any divine spell or SLA cast by an outsider that allows spell resistance. Spells cast by a Pragmatic are exempt from this.

[Gorgondantess]

Pragmatic finished. It's... interesting: I'm not sure I'm entirely happy with it, though.
Any polarized pairings of core spells to add to the spell list would be appreciated.

[Gorgondantess]

Anyone? Anyone at all?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

It's...it's interesting, like you said. Not sure what to say about it mechanically though.

[AtS]

Yeah, I like the Pragmatic, but I'm not sure about the [vile] and [exalted] bonus feats - aren't those mutually exclusive? I'm guessing that the alignment restrictions are waived - but in terms of fluff, how would one justify being able to wield such extremes with impunity? Does the Pragmatic draw the benefits of the feats from his own cold rationality rather than the divine powers they're originally supposed to stem from?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Besides, they're not that good of feats to begin with, aren't they?

[Gorgondantess]

There's a few gems amongst them. And Vile/Exalted feats don't necessarily require calling upon a deity...
The point is, he plays the field when it comes to alignments. It doesn't matter where he takes it from, so long as it helps him do his work. It's also exemplary of how they're a little bit good, a little bit evil.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I can see that as being justifiable then, except when vows are complimentary. I know there's a Dark Vow of Indulgence or something that requires you to do drugs, and that's in direct contradiction to the Vow of Abstinence.

I can see how this might appeal to people, but I myself follow the words of Executor Pallin:

"I've been a C-Sec officer for thirty years. I've never had to break the law to do my job. Not once."

Just because the fast way is there doesn't make it the best way.

[Gorgondantess]

Just because the fast way is there doesn't make it the best way.

That's just the thing: it's the best way to the Pragmatic.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Even if it involves slaughtering a room full of undeserving people? I'm not talking innocence here, just minimizing collateral damage.

[Gorgondantess]

Even if it involves slaughtering a room full of undeserving people? I'm not talking innocence here, just minimizing collateral damage.

If the Pragmatic deems it necessary, then it is necessary.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

What if it isn't necessary? Say a bad guy's hiding at a party. The Pragmatic could charge the guy slaughtering everything in his way, or he could wait until the target's alone and kill him then, with a lot less mess to clean up. It's not a matter of morality, but practicality. Sure the Pragmatic doesn't care about a person's morality, but one corpse is a whole lot easier to dispose of than 27.

[Gorgondantess]

What if it isn't necessary? Say a bad guy's hiding at a party. The Pragmatic could charge the guy slaughtering everything in his way, or he could wait until the target's alone and kill him then, with a lot less mess to clean up. It's not a matter of morality, but practicality. Sure the Pragmatic doesn't care about a person's morality, but one corpse is a whole lot easier to dispose of than 27.

Okay... so then the Pragmatic wouldn't kill all these people. Where are you going with this?

[Robert Blackletter]

What if it isn't necessary? Say a bad guy's hiding at a party. The Pragmatic could charge the guy slaughtering everything in his way, or he could wait until the target's alone and kill him then, with a lot less mess to clean up. It's not a matter of morality, but practicality. Sure the Pragmatic doesn't care about a person's morality, but one corpse is a whole lot easier to dispose of than 27.

I think the idea is if the pragmatic deem it necessary then he would kill everyone in the room, whether some were innocent or not. Yes you can argue that you don't think it was but the pramatic is free to disagree. In your example the pragmatic know where the man while he could lose him later if he leaves it longer.( Please correct me if I'm wrong Gorgondantess he is your baby)

I know there's a Dark Vow of Indulgence or something that requires you to do drugs, and that's in direct contradiction to the Vow of Abstinence.

By taking one he would fail to qualify for the other so no problem here i would have thought.

Edit: what happens to your palindin ability with this as many are keyed to cha (example: Divine Grace) and others don't suit the fluff (EXAMPLE:Holy Smite) i not a optimisation type but it could lead to 5 dead level of paladin which seems alot when this is not a upgrade MORE A NEW DIRECTION.

[Krazddndfreek]

Edit: what happens to your palindin ability with this as many are keyed to cha (example: Divine Grace) and others don't suit the fluff (EXAMPLE:Holy Smite) i not a optimisation type but it could lead to 5 dead level of paladin which seems alot when this is not a upgrade MORE A NEW DIRECTION.

Alignment Dead: The Pragmatic is considered to not have a charisma score: any skill or ability checks keyed off of charisma are keyed off of intelligence instead, and class abilities keyed off of charisma (such as turn undead or certain spellcasting progressions) simply don't work. The Pragmatic adds his charisma bonus (pre falling, and not counting any enhancement or inherent bonuses) as a permanent untyped bonus to his intelligence score.
Ability damage or drain to charisma simply does nothing.
In addition, the Pragmatic is always considered to have whatever alignment would be most beneficial to him at the time- for example, if hit by a blasphemy spell, he would be considered to have an evil alignment. If struck by a holy weapon, he would be considered to have a good alignment.

Emphasis mine

[Roc Ness]

The Pragmatist: 9th level spells, Full BaB, DR 10, d8 HD...

I'm not sure, but you may have made a minor CoDzilla with this PRC.

[Krazddndfreek]

The DR isn't that amazing, as it only affects attacks that have an alignment, but the 9th level spell and full bab are.

[Robert Blackletter]

Emphasis mine

dang missed that well that what i get for not sleeping in 36 hours cos I also missed the 9th level spells (assumed it was 6th like the pal) well that makes the dead levels more attractive.

[Krazddndfreek]

dang missed that well that what i get for not sleeping in 36 hours cos I also missed the 9th level spells (assumed it was 6th like the pal) well that makes the dead levels more attractive.

I think I would have missed that too if you hadn't mentioned it

[Sereg]

It is an interesting PrC, but I am also concerned about it getting 9th level spells.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Okay... so then the Pragmatic wouldn't kill all these people. Where are you going with this?

I'm just trying to get a read on what "pragmatic" means here. Sure the simple answer is that this is a person who does whatever is necessary to get the job done. But what qualifies as "necessary" in this case? I'm finding it hard to figure out how a person like this stays True Neutral. Carving up bystanders to get at one bad guy seems evil, while waiting for the bad guy to be alone so you can kill him and just him seems good. The class doesn't seem like an exemplar of the True Neutral alignment as much as a schizophrenic person who is good sometimes and evil other times.

[Gorgondantess]

I'm just trying to get a read on what "pragmatic" means here. Sure the simple answer is that this is a person who does whatever is necessary to get the job done. But what qualifies as "necessary" in this case? I'm finding it hard to figure out how a person like this stays True Neutral. Carving up bystanders to get at one bad guy seems evil, while waiting for the bad guy to be alone so you can kill him and just him seems good. The class doesn't seem like an exemplar of the True Neutral alignment as much as a schizophrenic person who is good sometimes and evil other times.

Necessary is whatever the individual Pragmatic deems necessary. I don't get to decide: they do. And it is not good, nor evil, nor lawful, nor chaotic, nor neutral: the Pragmatic is off the alignment chart altogether. Amoral.

The Pragmatist: 9th level spells, Full BaB, DR 10, d8 HD...

I'm not sure, but you may have made a minor CoDzilla with this PRC.

Yes, I have. It's either a tier 2.5 or 1.5 class, depending on how you look at it: I'd call it tier 2, personally.
Though I wouldn't call it overpowered, at all. With this class you're limited to, specifically, Paladin 9/Pragmatic 10/Class X. It also has a limited spell list. Meanwhile, you can pull off something like Bard 1/Duskblade 9/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Sacred Exorcist 3, which gives +18 BAB, channel spell (though only as a standard action, still powerful), and potential DMM shenanigans, as well as 9th level spells but from a much, much broader list, especially if you include SpC. That's strictly more powerful than this one.
Yes, in a healbot/sword&board fighter/trapmonkey/blaster wizard party, the Pragmatic is going to be considered too powerful. So is my paladin.

The only argument that I can see that's quite valid is that the Pragmatic is more powerful than the Paladin, when the Paladin should be really powerful, yes? I don't have an answer to that: I just gave the Pragmatic what felt right. If I changed it, I feel it would create more problems than it solves, at least in terms of my own aesthetic bliss, so screw that, I'm keeping it.

One other argument, though, might be the capstone ability, but I'd like to deflect that argument by saying that it's gained at level 19, at the earliest: it needs something to compete with batman, doesn't it?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Necessary is whatever the individual Pragmatic deems necessary. I don't get to decide: they do. And it is not good, nor evil, nor lawful, nor chaotic, nor neutral: the Pragmatic is off the alignment chart altogether. Amoral.

Okay, NOW I get it. I was thinking the Pragmatic was some kind of ultimate neutral, but I see now it's less being completely balanced in terms of morality and more like free from alignment at all. In a way, you could say that when you become pragmatic, you erase the alignment from your character sheet for good. That clears up everything. Sorry for the confusion.