Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

[Gorgondantess]

Okay, NOW I get it. I was thinking the Pragmatic was some kind of ultimate neutral, but I see now it's less being completely balanced in terms of morality and more like free from alignment at all. In a way, you could say that when you become pragmatic, you erase the alignment from your character sheet for good. That clears up everything. Sorry for the confusion.

Precisely: the first ability pretty much explains that. Alignments are an ideal, and I'd have none of that with the Pragmatic.

[Lord_Gareth]

Gorgon, I hate to bring it up, but you are aware that the paladin's code is still extremely subject to "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations, right?

[Eldan]

Uhm, sorry I have nothing real to contribute, but where's that quote in the title from? It's been bugging me for hours, now. I know where it comes from, but can't remember it...

[Owrtho]

I'm finding it hard to figure out how a person like this stays True Neutral. Carving up bystanders to get at one bad guy seems evil, while waiting for the bad guy to be alone so you can kill him and just him seems good. The class doesn't seem like an exemplar of the True Neutral alignment as much as a schizophrenic person who is good sometimes and evil other times.

I'd also point out that being true neutral doesn't mean you don't do good or evil things, just that you don't particularly favour one solution over the other. Being neutral isn't so much something you work to do, rather its the fact you aren't working to be good or bad (or lawful or chaotic, though arguably being chaotic is even less work as it is just doing whatever you feel like).

That is just my opinion though. It also is true that there are situations that neutrality must be worked for, but that usually tends to be in the eyes of others, not in how you actually are.

Owrtho

[LurkerInPlayground]

Or:
Alignments are stupid. They cause more problems than they solve.

A paladin code could, you know, actually be an explicit code; rather than some vague rule that says that paladins must act lawful good.

[Gorgondantess]

Gorgon, I hate to bring it up, but you are aware that the paladin's code is still extremely subject to "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations, right?

Yes. That's the point, if you've been reading along: that still happens. There are supposed to be those situations, but the paladin is powerful to make up for it. I like the code: I don't like the paladin. The paladin is supposed to have the code to restrict a powerful class... read the text in the OP.

Uhm, sorry I have nothing real to contribute, but where's that quote in the title from? It's been bugging me for hours, now. I know where it comes from, but can't remember it...

It's an eminem song.

[Gorgondantess]

I edited in an... extra quote to the paladin's code, and am currently working on another "holy warrior". Stay tuned!

[GameSpawn]

I really like the idea of this paladin. I find the Justiciar ability a little distasteful, since it seems to me that the paladin SHOULD be stronger against evil creatures, but from a game-play point of view, I see the point. Maybe if the ability could only be invoked to defend good creatures or there was some other limitation, I would like it better. I also wish the paladin had a greater ability to help others not commit evil (other than by violence): spells like calm emotions, for example.

[FlamingKobold]

You get things like calm emotions from PrCs. This paladin is just a holy warrior that stomps bad guys.

[GameSpawn]

You get things like calm emotions from PrCs. This paladin is just a holy warrior that stomps bad guys.

Point taken. I suppose what I'd like to see is a less vicious paladin, but perhaps it would make more sense to just roleplay it that way.

[Lord_Gareth]

I edited in an... extra quote to the paladin's code, and am currently working on another "holy warrior". Stay tuned!

So...your quote basically says that the Paladin only works in games rife with moral simplicity, requiring the DM to run a certain kind of game. Is that about right?

I do like the mechanical changes, mind, and I'll probably use this variant along with my Personal Code system, but I'm trying to understand your angle here.

[Gorgondantess]

So...your quote basically says that the Paladin only works in games rife with moral simplicity, requiring the DM to run a certain kind of game. Is that about right?

I do like the mechanical changes, mind, and I'll probably use this variant along with my Personal Code system, but I'm trying to understand your angle here.

Oh, no! No matter the world, there can be paladins. I'm not saying that's how it is. I'm saying that's what the paladin believes. A paladin believes in an ideal, not a reality. There is no practicality in the paladin's code.

[Lord_Gareth]

So what happens when the Paladin inevitably matures when exposed to the "real world" and decides to take up a code more in line with, y'know, actually helping people?

[Gorgondantess]

So what happens when the Paladin inevitably matures when exposed to the "real world" and decides to take up a code more in line with, y'know, actually helping people?

This.

[Bharg]

I really like your Paladin! I am just missing a bit of the feeling to be unstoppable of the Smiting mode of the Pathfinder Paladin.

Could someone link me this CoDzilla thing... I can't find it.

[Gorgondantess]

I really like your Paladin! I am just missing a bit of the feeling to be unstoppable of the Smiting mode of the Pathfinder Paladin.

Could someone link me this CoDzilla thing... I can't find it.

The CoDzilla isn't anything specific: it stands for Cleric or Druid-zilla. It's just the idea of a divine caster who buffs themselves up, then goes to town. The problem with this is that these casters have world-changing abilities, but then they can also just cast a few spells and wade into melee better than a fighter, or barbarian, or paladin can- which thus begs the question, what's the point of a paladin when you can play a CoDzilla?

[Bharg]

Oh, yeah. I see. >.>
That's kinda dumb...

Why did you choose to turn Smite Evil into a passive ability without a charisma bonus on damage?
Did you already playtest it?

[Gorgondantess]

Oh, yeah. I see. >.>
That's kinda dumb...

Dumb, but true. Blame WotC.

Why did you choose to turn Smite Evil into a passive ability without a charisma bonus on damage?

Well, I didn't want this to be a "dip" class, as the other paladin is. Thus, I gave it holy smite, for class level-to-damage, and then Holy Strike for charisma to attack. It's essentially smite evil, but drawn out and permanent. It was just more balanced that way.

Did you already playtest it?

Nope. Haven't had much of a chance to.

[BladeofOblivion]

Oh, yeah. I see. >.>
That's kinda dumb...

Why did you choose to turn Smite Evil into a passive ability without a charisma bonus on damage?
Did you already playtest it?

We're going to. It is going to be very powerful, but not overkill.

[Gorgondantess]

We're going to. It is going to be very powerful, but not overkill.

Actually, no, it won't. It'll be along the lines of a bard or duskblade. I'm currently working on changing that.

[BladeofOblivion]

I meant compared to the standard Paladin. On second thought, it might be so in that comparison.

[Bharg]

Ha, how important is magic for this paladin?

[Gorgondantess]

Ha, how important is magic for this paladin?

Well, without spells, this paladin is pretty much the standard paladin with infinite smites and some badass turning, so... pretty important.

[Bharg]

Could you emulate some CoDzilla-ing with this spells?

Why making the mount a special ability and not use a druidish bad ass mount like in Pathfinder as an extra feature?

[Gorgondantess]

Could you emulate some CoDzilla-ing with this spells?

Why making the mount a special ability and not use a druidish bad ass mount like in Pathfinder as an extra feature?

*ehehehm*.

Screw Pathfinder.

[Lord_Gareth]

*ehehehm*.

Screw Pathfinder.

QFT. And the lulz.

[Bharg]

Wow, that helps a lot.

[Gorgondantess]

Changes!

*Added a Special Ability to 4th level.

*Brought back Holy Strike to 5th level.

*Added the Sacrifice and Holy Sacrifice abilities. Check it out!

[DrWeird]

I always thought the notion of a divine character besides an Ur-Priest not worshiping Gods was pretty silly, especially in a world so involved in the constant conflicts of them. Still, that's not really important; what's important is you did a very good job making the Paladin not only a prestige class, but competitive. The only question now is what to fill those last levels with after you max out Paladin.

*HACKWHEEZEFAVOREDSOULHORKCOUGH*

I can also attest, after being forced into playing Pathfinder, throwing bigger numbers at things doesn't help.

[Gorgondantess]

I always thought the notion of a divine character besides an Ur-Priest not worshiping Gods was pretty silly, especially in a world so involved in the constant conflicts of them. Still, that's not really important; what's important is you did a very good job making the Paladin not only a prestige class, but competitive. The only question now is what to fill those last levels with after you max out Paladin.

...Are you looking at the Pragmatic or something? This is a 20 level base class.

I can also attest, after being forced into playing Pathfinder, throwing bigger numbers at things doesn't help.

Certainly. Initiators have relatively small numbers, generally.