[3.5] Learning Spell Fragments instead of whole Spells?

[The Glyphstone]

So, in the process of building a homebrew setting, I've come to wizards. Sorcerers have a defined niche in the setting, but I'd like to drag the wizard down a bit in power while preserving their mechanical role as 'prepared arcane caster'. Wizard flavor here is much closer to Truenaming - spells are spoken in the 'universal source code' to make temporary 'edits', and I had an idea.

What would it do, in terms of balance/playability, if wizards didn't learn whole spells when they leveled up, but 'fragments', or pages? I.e. instead of 2 new spells/level for a generalist wizard, they'd gain X pages to add to their book. 1st level spells would still take up 1 page, 2nd level spells 2 pages, and so forth. You'd build spells piecemeal, instead of having them spring into existence fully learned.

-Forget the existence of specialization and alternate class features/racial substitutions, or feats like Collegiate Wizard. Consider this idea in a vacumn.
-An 'incomplete' spell would be uncastable.
-You couldn't scribe parts of a spell higher-level than you are capable of casting, so no storing up your unwanted fragments from 1-10th level to have a book full of level 9 spells when you hit 17.
-The number of pages gained would have to scale to roughly match the rate at which wizards learn new spells anyways. A bit of math says wizards naturally gain 108 spell levels via level-up, so if it were equalized to 5 fragments/level, or maybe a variable of 1+Int fragments/level, you'd end up with roughly the same total. You'd have a much larger repetoire of low-level spells, and far fewer high-end spells (as it stands, a 3.5 wizard could have 8 9th level spells in his book before additions. This would give him 2-4.)
-Scrolls would not be commercially available, but rare and valuable loot items for their ability to contain an entire spell. The mechanics of how/why this is true can be worked out later, but it's a given that the entire concept would collapse if the scroll market is not taken into account or taken out of the equation temporarily.

Edits and revisions to the spells themselves will come separately - this is purely a consideration to see if the Wizard can be equalized with the Sorcerer in terms of playable effectiveness while retaining its distinct mechanical flavor.

[Milskidasith]

This actually could work out well enough, except that it's one of those things (like skill points, or manuevers to a lesser extent) that can be annoying to have to manually figure out at every levelup.

Still, if wizards only get a few high level spells with no scrolls, it is entirely possible sorcerers, at high levels, outpace them by a huge margin, while wizards now outpace sorcerers far more easily at lower levels due to getting quite a few spells every levelup.

EDIT: I think it could be plausible to allow you to cast a fragmented spell if you had most all of it, although at a penalty/with a chance of failure (caster level check equal to 10+2x spell level+2 x number of missing pages? Meaning you can, at level 20 with 8/9 of the pages, cast a ninth level spell half the time).

[dsmiles]

I like that. If I could add to it, though:

Incomplete spells wouldn't be completely uncastable. If 75% or more of the spell is in the book, I would allow a wizard a Spellcraft (of a DC to be determined by the DM) check to attempt to cast it. Failure would indicate a "wild magic" effect like back in 2e (the d% wild magic table, where each integer provides a different and exciting result). Success would provide a 75% effective spell (or maybe have a feat for casting incomplete spells at 75% effectiveness). Just a thought.

[Milskidasith]

I like that. If I could add to it, though:

Incomplete spells wouldn't be completely uncastable. If 75% or more of the spell is in the book, I would allow a wizard a Spellcraft (of a DC to be determined by the DM) check to attempt to cast it. Failure would indicate a "wild magic" effect like back in 2e (the d% wild magic table, where each integer provides a different and exciting result). Success would provide a 75% effective spell (or maybe have a feat for casting incomplete spells at 75% effectiveness). Just a thought.

Skill checks are far too easy to optimize, which is why I propose a caster level check; while there are ways to boost it (especially as a Cleric, due to Bead of Karma), it is much harder to optimize than skill checks; skill checks required for actually important mechanical effects either lead to DCs that are challenging for optimized people with 90k skill items and impossible otherwise, or a breeze for even a casual optimizer while being tough for somebody with skill mod+ranks+maybe a +5 item.

[dsmiles]

Skill checks are far too easy to optimize, which is why I propose a caster level check; while there are ways to boost it (especially as a Cleric, due to Bead of Karma), it is much harder to optimize than skill checks; skill checks required for actually important mechanical effects either lead to DCs that are challenging for optimized people with 90k skill items and impossible otherwise, or a breeze for even a casual optimizer while being tough for somebody with skill mod+ranks+maybe a +5 item.

The mechanics of the check (to me) aren't as important as how you make the wizard fail the check:

1. Cast incomplete spell
2. Roll Dice
3. ???
4. WILD MAGIC!!! (or Profit, if you prefer, though it means the same to me)

[Tetrasodium]

-The number of pages gained would have to scale to roughly match the rate at which wizards learn new spells anyways. A bit of math says wizards naturally gain 108 spell levels via level-up, so if it were equalized to 5 fragments/level, or maybe a variable of 1+Int fragments/level, you'd end up with roughly the same total. You'd have a much larger repetoire of low-level spells, and far fewer high-end spells (as it stands, a 3.5 wizard could have 8 9th level spells in his book before additions. This would give him 2-4.)

it doesn't do a wizard much good to have so many first level spells scribed in their spellbook that everything ever published is in said spellbook... they still only have so many first level spell slots.

[Milskidasith]

it doesn't do a wizard much good to have so many first level spells scribed in their spellbook that everything ever published is in said spellbook... they still only have so many first level spell slots.

Most wizards in decently optimized games know far more spells than they have spell slots anyway, because you can use different things on different days. Versatility helps a lot; there is a reason wizards are T1 and Sorcerers are T2.

[Tetrasodium]

Most wizards in decently optimized games know far more spells than they have spell slots anyway, because you can use different things on different days. Versatility helps a lot; there is a reason wizards are T1 and Sorcerers are T2.

I don't disagree, but it seems like the OP is saying that the wizard having just about nothing not copied or self researched in the way of high level spells balances out because they will have more low level spells... which seems to fall apart starting with second or third level spells given his figures. Having 400 pages of first level spells in a spellbook doesn't help much when you have one each third, fourth, and fifth level spell and are still working on a sixth level spell even though you can cast 9th level spells.

It's not a bad idea to have spells broken up by pages, doing so would do things like allow a generic X level conjuration page or something in loot for example... but such a drastic reduction in spells/level would be problematic.

[The Glyphstone]

The higher number of low-level spells wasn't brought up as a balance point, more as a ramification of the change. Extra low-level spells don't balance high-level spells, which is kind of the point. Spells increase in power exponentially, so reducing the number of top-end spells a wizard would have access to does weaken them and force them to choose more carefully. The question wasn't so much if more low-level spells balances vs. fewer high-level spells (It doesn't), but if the change/nerf is sufficient to weaken the Wizard down to Sorcerer-level or thereabouts without making them weaker than the sorcerer entirely.

Here's the number breakdown for spell 'levels' versus whole spells, assuming an 'average' of 6 pages/level versus a standard wizard with Int 18. Both are building high-level spells as quickly as possible.
{table=head] Level | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th
1: | 6/7 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | -
2: | 12/9 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | -
3: | 12/9 | 3/2 | - | - | - | - | - | - | -
4: | 12/9 | 6/4 | - | - | - | - | - | - | -
5: | 12/9 | 6/4 | 2/2 | - | - | - | - | - | -
6: | 12/9 | 6/4 | 4/4 | - | - | - | - | - | -
7: | 12/9 | 6/4 | 4/4 | 1.5/2 | - | - | - | - | -
8: | 12/9 | 6/4 | 4/4 | 3/4 | - | - | - | - | -
9: | 12/9 | 6/4 | 4/4 | 3/4 | 1.2/2 | - | - | - | -
10: | 12/9 | 6/4 | 4/4 | 3/4 | 2.4/4 | - | - | - | -
11: | 12/9 | 6/4 | 4/4 | 3/4 | 2.4/4 | 1/2 | - | - | -
12: | 12/9 | 6/4 | 4/4 | 3/4 | 2.4/4 | 2/4 | - | - | -
13: | 12/9 | 6/4 | 4/4 | 3/4 | 2.4/4 | 2/4 | 0.85/2 | - | -
14: | 12/9 | 6/4 | 4/4 | 3/4 | 2.4/4 | 2/4 | 1.7/4 | - | -
15: | 12/9 | 6/4 | 4/4 | 3/4 | 2.4/4 | 2/4 | 1.7/4 | 0.75/2 | -
16: | 12/9 | 6/4 | 4/4 | 3/4 | 2.4/4 | 2/4 | 1.7/4 | 1.5/4 | -
17: | 12/9 | 6/4 | 4/4 | 3/4 | 2.4/4 | 2/4 | 1.7/4 | 1.5/4 | 0.67/2
18: | 12/9 | 6/4 | 4/4 | 3/4 | 2.4/4 | 2/4 | 1.7/4 | 1.5/4 | 1.33/4
19: | 12/9 | 6/4 | 4/4 | 3/4 | 2.4/4 | 2/4 | 1.7/4 | 1.5/4 | 2/6
20: | 12/9 | 6/4 | 5/4 | 3/4 | 2.4/4 | 2/4 | 2/4 | 2/4 | 2/8
[/table]
End result;
New Wizard.12/6/5/3/2/2/2/2/2 known
Old Wizard..12/9/4/4/4/4/4/4/8 known
Sorcerer:.....5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3 known

Okay, so with a baseline of 6 fragments/level, it lags behind the old wizard by about 50% on all spell levels past 4th, and behind the sorcerer by 30%-50% after 5th-6th level spells. With at least 2 scrolls of each level handed out as treasure, though, it jumps past the sorcerer by 30%, equal to the old wizard up until level 9 spells.

Hmmm.

[Milskidasith]

So he's strictly weaker than the sorcerer unless he gets DM granted super rare scrolls to get more knowledge, which Sorcerers can also do (with knowstones, which are incredibly expensive, so you aren't exactly going to be buying them).

I think the system may need a light tweak.

[The Glyphstone]

Indeed. I think the number of fragments needs to be increased somehow - maybe make it variable based on Int score like skill points are, as mentioned above. It'd make the system more fiddly though.

The above example would be 2+Int fragments/level with Int 18, unchanging. If he dumps all his level-ups into Int, Level 8 would increase Int to 20, but that would only add another 13 fragments to the 'total', where he's currently 35 levels behind. At level 16, Int 22, but that's only 5 more fragments. That puts him, in the end, 17 fragments short of equality with the sorcerer.

If it's increased to 3+Int, that adds 20 fragments. Now he's 3 over the sorcerer, roughly par. 4+Int would likely be the target, but that leaves him with a ridiculous bloat of lower-level spells - how many, I'd have to analyze. Having it scale based on wizard level, maybe? Start at 2+Int, gain an additional fragment/level every 5 class levels or so?

[Cieyrin]

Indeed. I think the number of fragments needs to be increased somehow - maybe make it variable based on Int score like skill points are, as mentioned above. It'd make the system more fiddly though.

The above example would be 2+Int fragments/level with Int 18, unchanging. If he dumps all his level-ups into Int, Level 8 would increase Int to 20, but that would only add another 13 fragments to the 'total', where he's currently 35 levels behind. At level 16, Int 22, but that's only 5 more fragments. That puts him, in the end, 17 fragments short of equality with the sorcerer.

If it's increased to 3+Int, that adds 20 fragments. Now he's 3 over the sorcerer, roughly par. 4+Int would likely be the target, but that leaves him with a ridiculous bloat of lower-level spells - how many, I'd have to analyze. Having it scale based on wizard level, maybe? Start at 2+Int, gain an additional fragment/level every 5 class levels or so?

You could replace the bonus feats with fully researched spells or some such to that effect.

This is a very interesting idea, though, as you've said, it needs twiddling with yet before it's ready.

[The Glyphstone]

Not a bad idea - or, create it as a bonus feat in its own right, again limited to the highest spell level you can cast. With 6 fragments/level and scaling Int...let's call it Magical Epiphany as a placeholder, and say it grants 3 enough fragments to learn 3 spells of the highest level you can manage. At 5th level, that'd be 9 fragment equivalents. At 10th, it'd be 15 more. At 15th, it'd be worth 24, and at 20th, it'd be worth as much as 27.

A wizard who goes to 20th and takes it 4 times would end up with an extra 3 3rd, 3 5th, 3 8th, and 3 9th level spells. Still superior to the Old Wiz and Sorc in 3rd level spells, shoots past Old Wiz and Sorc in 5ths and 8ths, remains behind Old Wiz in 9ths but jumps ahead of Sorc. He's still lagging in 6th and 7th level spells known, but nothing stops him from taking Epiphany as a normal feat at, say, 18th level. It becomes a superior version of Sorcerer's Extra Spell feat, because it grants multiple picks and doesn't limit to max level-1. Plus, I like the implied flavor of it as a bonus feat - a Wizard's bonus list will consist of metamagic (manipulating spells into new shapes), item creation (binding spells into physical objects), Spell Mastery (internalizing already-known spells to perfect memory), or Magical Epiphany (adding new spells to his repitoire).

[dsmiles]

Magical Epiphany

Hell, most days I can't even get a Mundane Epiphany. Glyphstone, old boy, you're a gen-i-us. I may have to steal, I mean, borrow this stuff, if I ever go back to 3.5.

[The Glyphstone]

Hell, most days I can't even get a Mundane Epiphany. Glyphstone, old boy, you're a gen-i-us. I may have to steal, I mean, borrow this stuff, if I ever go back to 3.5.

Heh. Consider it a momentary re-awakening of my old abilities. I used to be quite the homebrewer back in my day, cranking out prestige classes and monsters...
[/creakyoldman]

[Cieyrin]

Not a bad idea - or, create it as a bonus feat in its own right, again limited to the highest spell level you can cast. With 6 fragments/level and scaling Int...let's call it Magical Epiphany as a placeholder, and say it grants 3 enough fragments to learn 3 spells of the highest level you can manage. At 5th level, that'd be 9 fragment equivalents. At 10th, it'd be 15 more. At 15th, it'd be worth 24, and at 20th, it'd be worth as much as 27.

A wizard who goes to 20th and takes it 4 times would end up with an extra 3 3rd, 3 5th, 3 8th, and 3 9th level spells. Still superior to the Old Wiz and Sorc in 3rd level spells, shoots past Old Wiz and Sorc in 5ths and 8ths, remains behind Old Wiz in 9ths but jumps ahead of Sorc. He's still lagging in 6th and 7th level spells known, but nothing stops him from taking Epiphany as a normal feat at, say, 18th level. It becomes a superior version of Sorcerer's Extra Spell feat, because it grants multiple picks and doesn't limit to max level-1. Plus, I like the implied flavor of it as a bonus feat - a Wizard's bonus list will consist of metamagic (manipulating spells into new shapes), item creation (binding spells into physical objects), Spell Mastery (internalizing already-known spells to perfect memory), or Magical Epiphany (adding new spells to his repitoire).

That's actually better than I imagined. It may lead into something akin to Factotums with Fonts of Inspiration but I don't see that as a major concern. It gives new reason to want to advance further into Wizard instead of PRCing out, which I don't see as a bad deal, really. Making you way your options more is generally a good thing when it comes to game design, I find.

[The Glyphstone]

And sorcerers, for the most part, won't have access to Knowstones*, preserving the Wizard's unique ability to expand spells known via treasure. Maybe a feature as well of 'whenever they gain access to a new level of spells, scribe one complete spell of that level in addition to the 6 fragments gained at that level'. That alone puts them equal to Sorcerers, with the potential for Epiphany and scrolls to push them ahead.


(*The wizards beat up the Truenamers and stole their fluff here, while the Sorcerers beat up the Warlocks and stole their fluff - sorcerous power is gained by a blood pact with a powerful entity, who dishes out complete spells in exchange for service or offerings).