Witchunt V1.0 (WW Variant)

[Internet Flea]

Just pointing out there isn't a Wizard in this game.

[Sotek]

This... actually makes me reconsider. I can't see anybody doing this unless they had an inconsequential villager role.

Unfortunately, and a little annoyingly, I can. Giving up is not uncommon at all among witches, although I have seen it happen among weak town-roles. That said, I'm only lightly wagging a finger of suspicion his way, since my suspicions weren't really raised till post #170, and weren't raised high enough to jump on the bandwagon when it was right around the level of pressure I wanted anyway.


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Post reference link
Sotek's unofficial vote tally! (15 alive, so 8 is lynch, 8 is sufficient to force nolynch)

Mordokai: 6+2 (Murska, Aemoh, Tydude, Ramsus, Eternal Drifter, InaVegt) (CitizenFry and Dragon_Child at deadline)
Sotek: 1 (Fleeing Coward)
Murska: 1 (Mordokai)
Fleeing Coward; 1 (lostlittlebear)
InaVegt: 1 (Istari)

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[Dragon_Child]

Just pointing out there isn't a Wizard in this game.

I'm so glad that having them listed, but not in play didn't throw only me off.

[Murska]

I think, looking at the voting situation, that this day is going to be completely uninformative. Maybe we should start pushing some other wagon. Sotek, who would you suggest? You seem to be paying attention and have experience at this type of game.

[Sotek]

Just pointing out there isn't a Wizard in this game.

Oh, derp. That's right, this is using the old role order, before wizard got pushed up. Wizard is a really weak role, but the possibility of Wizard means that the werewolf endgame would be a lot weaker as he wouldn't be able to just guess-devour to try to find JW if spy claims+dob dies.

STILL: As long as DOB and/or witches are alive and the WW can't pinpoint them, a few roleclaims don't hurt much. A lot of roleclaims would kill us, of course, but one or two a day won't - especially because witches end up needing to target the claimed-and-believed people as they know we won't lynch those guys for them.

[InaVegt]

My initial unfinished analysis suggests that it is vital to focus on finding witches first. While finding the werewolf is a nice thing, we can't kill him through lynching.

Some notes on individual roles.

Spy: Vital to our victory.
Demon: Can be really dangerous, especially if he knows seering-patterns of the priest.
Priest and Acolyte: Minimasons. Acolyte -could- be a good front for the Priest to spread his word, but the Werewolf makes this more complicated.
Leeroy Jenkins: The other way for the day-kill to not be the result of voting. A loose cannon, and a power preferably preserved for something important.
B.O.D.: Someone we might want to lynch eventually, but not yet. Even if we -did- know who B.O.D. is.
Junior Witch: Very dangerous role. We can't trust any good results because of this. IF this is the spy, then it's a big advantage.

Other roles to be analyzed later.

[Sotek]

I think, looking at the voting situation, that this day is going to be completely uninformative. Maybe we should start pushing some other wagon. Sotek, who would you suggest? You seem to be paying attention and have experience at this type of game.

Well, I tried to start one on VA_Beds at the beginning of the day, as a semi-random selection from among the "low postcount guys" - I find scum tends to be less active than town, so someone who just makes a few posts is a bit suspicious and if we can pressure them into talking a bit the game should be a bit more fun, if nothing else. The fact that bandwagon fizzled may or may not be indicative of anything - Mordokai was gathering people at the time, and all that.

Istari's scumindex is pegged to Mordokai's in my book now, so if we end up lynching Mordokai and he lives (about 50% chance of a lynch-survivor being a witch, 25% chance of werewolf! Also, odds of a lynched witch surviving the first time are surprisingly high) I'd want to go after Istari, but am not keen on trying to switch right away.

Otherwise, eh. Fleeing Coward has a vote on me, which I always view with suspicion, but that still puts him about where I have Tydude atm - "better than pure random, but not that good". (Dragon_Child and dizzylover55 felt more like "random D1 vote" so barely nudge my views at all.)

Right now I'd be happy seeing if we can get another post or two out of Mordokai, though. *shrug*. My reads have never been too great in these games even if I've been pretty good at examining the mechanical implications of things.

[Milskidasith]

Priest and acolyte have no way of communicating with each other, so they really aren't like masons at all.

[Internet Flea]

Priest and Acolyte: Minimasons. Acolyte -could- be a good front for the Priest to spread his word, but the Werewolf makes this more complicated.

The Acolyte knows the Priest, but does the Priest know the Acolyte?

[Milskidasith]

The Acolyte knows the Priest, but does the Priest know the Acolyte?

No. They also cannot communicate privately; only lovers and witches have that ability.

[InaVegt]

No. They also cannot communicate privately; only lovers and witches have that ability.

Ah, okay. Thank you for the clarification.

[Mordokai]

I seem to remember something about wolves (or scum, as you people insist on calling it) like to hide on wagons. Specifically, third in line. Thus was theorized by great evnafets and he was good at this. Therefore, I shall change my point at Tydude.

[Murska]

Hm. I'm okay at mechanics when I have time to pay attention, but my focus has always been on the psychological side of things. Which is why I do worse in the recent fad of games where I'm not allowed to mislead, private-message or otherwise play the people instead of the game. The thread is a bit public a forum for personalized mindgames.

However, thread mindgames are fun on their own, large-scale way.

[Tydude]

I seem to remember something about wolves (or scum, as you people insist on calling it) like to hide on wagons. Specifically, third in line. Thus was theorized by great evnafets and he was good at this. Therefore, I shall change my point at Tydude.

I was actually the second but with an unofficial point. The only reason I didn't point at you until third was because I was trying to save myself at the time and you only had one vote and VA_beds had two. Speaking of VA_beds, where is he? Please post if you're out there.

[Milskidasith]

Hm. I'm okay at mechanics when I have time to pay attention, but my focus has always been on the psychological side of things. Which is why I do worse in the recent fad of games where I'm not allowed to mislead, private-message or otherwise play the people instead of the game. The thread is a bit public a forum for personalized mindgames.

However, thread mindgames are fun on their own, large-scale way.

Misleading is perfectly fine. PMing is not, for very obvious reasons due to the design of this game, and the fact PMing seems to serve no purpose but to degenerate the gameplay into "protect the guy that knows everything while he dictates everything."

[Sotek]

My initial unfinished analysis suggests that it is vital to focus on finding witches first. While finding the werewolf is a nice thing, we can't kill him through lynching.

Two factors here: The witches are generally easier to find than the werewolf, since we can look at vote patterns and see when people are trying to deflect attention from other people and such which helps find witches but is not so helpful for finding the werewolf. However, it's really good for the DOB to have a target in mind in case he gets randakilled at night, and we REALLY want him to hit the werewolf if he can. (and also during the day, since he's in a bad position if he's under heavy pressure - a trueclaim may get the werewolf to jump out and eat him.)

Priest and Acolyte: Minimasons. Acolyte -could- be a good front for the Priest to spread his word, but the Werewolf makes this more complicated.

Priest doesn't get told who Acolyte is, remember. Also, priest is one of the roles that we actually don't need to worry too much about the werewolf eating - after all, while the werewolf needs to be afraid of the priest finding him, if he jumps out and eats the priest... he confirms himself as the werewolf, which means he hasn't really gained anything.

The roles we really need to be afraid of the werewolf eating are witch-roles and the DOB, or just "anyone at all while hoping witches hit the DOB randomly".

Leeroy Jenkins: The other way for the day-kill to not be the result of voting. A loose cannon, and a power preferably preserved for something important.

Basically the main use of his power is defensive, I feel - if he's liable to get lynched or if someone makes a claim that he knows must be a lie (ie, spyclaim that names him, or someone else claims leeroy), he can prove it. That said, if Leeroy is one of the Lovers, that would be really good for us - the moment we find the enchantress (or 'just' likely-not-werewolf scum who survives lynch) he can go off to drop the enchantress and save his Lover. (Should claim lovers before doing that, though, so that his lover gets that bit of defense.)

Junior Witch: Very dangerous role. We can't trust any good results because of this. IF this is the spy, then it's a big advantage.

JW spy is ... different from normal. JW doesn't get told who witches are until they join coven, and a JW spy doesn't wanna join at a suspicious time or they just get sacced without being allowed to spill any beans at all.

But yeah, the JW is definitely the most dangerous witch - a "good" result, except for the obfuscating effects of that with the spy, isn't actually as mangled as it seems, since we can still trust that a person who checks that way isn't working with the witches... but still, if spy claims before JW joins coven (as happens moderately often, in my experience), we still have to hunt down the JW separately, and are forced to reexamine a lot of things.

And I see votes have moved a bit while I was typing up this, so ...

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Post reference link
Sotek's unofficial vote tally! (15 alive, so 8 is lynch, 8 is sufficient to force nolynch)

Mordokai: 6+2 (Murska, Aemoh, Tydude, Ramsus, Eternal Drifter, InaVegt) (CitizenFry and Dragon_Child at deadline)
Sotek: 1 (Fleeing Coward)
Fleeing Coward; 1 (lostlittlebear)
InaVegt: 1 (Istari)
Tydude: 1 (Mordokai)

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[InaVegt]

Another note.

Warlock/Survivalist/Werewolf: These three people are a threat. If someone who would've been lynched does not die, he could be any of these three people.

Of these three, only the Survivalist has the best interest of the people in mind.

However, of these three, only the Warlock is worth retrying to lynch.

I am purposefully including the Survivalist as a threat. Why? Because his role can be used as a shield by the other two. While his 'power' is nifty to keep himself in the game longer, that is a personal boon, and not one for the village.

I would advise against trying to lynch someone who doesn't immediately die, as there's 1/3rd chance you kill an enemy, and 2/3rds chance you waste a lynch.

[Murska]

Misleading is perfectly fine. PMing is not, for very obvious reasons due to the design of this game, and the fact PMing seems to serve no purpose but to degenerate the gameplay into "protect the guy that knows everything while he dictates everything."

That's a common argument, but frankly, I've played over a hundred games, most of them with behind-the-scenes work, and I don't really buy the implication this has that luck is the primary factor between which team wins. Frankly, I've worked a lot for some of my wins, for both teams, and even from nearly impossible situations and I've found that while lying and deceiving to confuse people and gain their trust to avoid networks behind the scenes takes some more work than just pointing in the thread it's really satisfying and rewarding and not even close to impossible.

And no, this isn't about this game. It's just a common argument recently, and I'll leave it at that since it doesn't really belong here.

[Sotek]

Another note.

Warlock/Survivalist/Werewolf: These three people are a threat. If someone who would've been lynched does not die, he could be any of these three people.

Also the enchantress, remember! Otherwise, yeah, that is why if Mordokai gets lynched and lives I'd want to turn attention to those who have been sort of aligned with him.

[Milskidasith]

That's a common argument, but frankly, I've played over a hundred games, most of them with behind-the-scenes work, and I don't really buy the implication this has that luck is the primary factor between which team wins. Frankly, I've worked a lot for some of my wins, for both teams, and even from nearly impossible situations and I've found that while lying and deceiving to confuse people and gain their trust to avoid networks behind the scenes takes some more work than just pointing in the thread it's really satisfying and rewarding and not even close to impossible.

And no, this isn't about this game. It's just a common argument recently, and I'll leave it at that since it doesn't really belong here.

The design of this particular game makes PMing an impossibility. Other games, it's an annoyance I don't like, but probably workable... in this game, I can already list a few roles it massively screws up:

WW. He can't win because he has very little public information, unless he manages to convince people he's a townie, in which case he probably gets NK'd because he is becoming a nexus of information, unless the GA's protect him, but... yeah.

Acolyte/Priest: Woo, they know each other and get free chat, that's far more powerful than they were designed.

Witches: They've already got chat, so they're weaker and their win chance is already pretty much even.

Spy: He can reveal to people who are confirmed town and without having any problems!

Nun: Oh god, modconfirmed town basically means the entire game would boil down to which spy/priest PM naming every role she trusted and whether or not the WW wanted to risk eating her as soon as she was mod claimed to hold on to his minimal chance of victory.

[InaVegt]

Also the enchantress, remember! Otherwise, yeah, that is why if Mordokai gets lynched and lives I'd want to turn attention to those who have been sort of aligned with him.

Good point.

[Murska]

That's why I said it isn't about this game. After all, I'm not stupid and I can see at a glance what all it can screw up. I don't like the assumption that I am.

[InaVegt]

More notes.

Vampire Hunter: Essentially a villager, has a 'power' but nothing to use it on.

Traveller: Can only be killed during the day, quite useful to us.

Demon: Another risk, knows who are confirmed save by the priest, and can decide to kill them.

Martyr: Potentially useful, relies a load on available information.

Judge: Dangerous vigilante. Can do a lot of good if he's played by a strong player, but if he's an inexperienced player, I fear for our chances.

[Internet Flea]

Judge: Dangerous vigilante. Can do a lot of good if he's played by a strong player, but if he's an inexperienced player, I fear for our chances.

The Judge is probably a non-factor; he only gets a power if there's no majority, and as Sotek pointed out, we need majorities because we can't be sure there's still a Judge.

[InaVegt]

The Judge is probably a non-factor; he only gets a power if there's no majority, and as Sotek pointed out, we need majorities because we can't be sure there's still a Judge.

True.

However, if the witches get greater comparative numbers, they might be able to prevent a lynch from occurring. In this case, the judge is vital, if he's still alive.

[Sotek]

True.

However, if the witches get greater comparative numbers, they might be able to prevent a lynch from occurring. In this case, the judge is vital, if he's still alive.

Right, the judge's power is mostly only good in endgame (he can win 1v1 and 2v2 situations that would otherwise be losses), though if two people claim Judge, a judgelynch is a good way to sort that out.

The Martyr is really really strong in certain limited situations, otherwise he's a little meh. Still nice, and one bit worth knowing about him is that he can sacrifice himself to "save" himself (and then die anyway, so he can claim on death if he wants.

[InaVegt]

Hmmm... I'm going to take a gamble and roleclaim.

I am the survivor.

Do with this information what you wish, except lynch me, of course. ;)

[Internet Flea]

Hmmm... I'm going to take a gamble and roleclaim.

I am the survivor.

Do with this information what you wish, except lynch me, of course. ;)

...I think we have to lynch you now.

First, because you're claiming you won't die, and there's a 75% chance that someone who doesn't die from the lynch is anti-town.
Second, because if you're telling the truth, you just gave the werewolf two free days of protection unless we kill you first, and the later we/it waits, the more impact that's going to have.

[Internet Flea]

Inavegt, for the above reasons.

[InaVegt]

...I think we have to lynch you now.

First, because you're claiming you won't die, and there's a 75% chance that someone who doesn't die from the lynch is anti-town.
Second, because if you're telling the truth, you just gave the werewolf two free days of protection unless we kill you first, and the later we/it waits, the more impact that's going to have.

I think it's a pretty stupid move to lynch me now, but if you feel it to be different, go ahead. Like Murska, I'm best with mind games, and while I understand the way the rules are set up here, and why they are this way.

I vastly prefer being able to play mind games.

However, don't think I'm out of tricks just yet. :)