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Thread: Square system, round game
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2011-09-23, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Square system, round game
Several months ago a game slot opened up in my group, so I decided to run something. At the time the only systems I knew were D&D and GURPS, and as the entire group had gotten rather tired of how long it took to resolve anything in GURPS I defaulted to using D&D 3.5
After a few sessions, it became apparent to me that D&D does not really fit the story and setting I have in mind at all. Magic and especially magic items are too high-power for the setting, combat is too all-or-nothing in its results, the class-based nature of the game discourages organic character growth in favor of planning a character's trajectory entirely ahead of time, and the system in general is too combat-centric for what I intend to do.
Luckily, I have since become familiar with the FATE system, which is a much conducive to the narrativist-style game I want to run. The problem is, I'm in a group with mostly gamist-leaning players, one of whom is extremely enthusiastic about the mechanics of D&D specifically. Every time I have brought up the issue with them they have suggested I alter the setting to fit the game system, which in my mind is an entirely backwards way of doing things (not to mention it would require a total rewrite of all of my plans).
Does anyone have any suggestions for how I can convince my group to transition to a system betting fitting the intended style of my game or, failing that, advice on running a narrativist game in the D&D system?
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2011-09-23, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
not sure if this would help, but here are some thoughts:
- depending on the age and gaming experience of the players, and mostly their personalities, it might be very hard, or impossible to get them to switch their preferences. people like different things in games, and that's about it. in time people may learn to like other aspects of game, or be more open to other styles, but in general people tend to stick to their preferred style of play. my suggestion is to try to mix and match elements of the game to suit most moods. sometime it works, sometimes it doesn't.
- D&D can be played sort of narratively (is that a word?) but it requires one (or a combination of) the following: like minded players, specific setting, and specific game mechanics. the players however are by far the most important part i think. still, there are some setting with low magic, deeper and more complicated cultures plots and the like, and more. as to rules- try looking up E6, it is said to keep the high magic at bay, it's quite simple, and moves some of the focus of the character towards roleplay (though this last point is argued)
- Yora on this boards is developing a setting which you might like, with a set of rules that seem simple, variable, and fun. try looking her signature up.
- all that said, my suggestion would be to tell the guys "look, i want to try something. we'll run a short adventure by Fate rules, it's character creation (aspects) are really cool, and you can stack them for cool effects. give me 3-5 sessions, and if you don't like it, we go back to D&D. what do you say?"
get them to experiment, try the system at least. it's the best you can do.
hope this helped.
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2011-09-23, 01:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
Switching systems isn't going to change player personalities. You might be able to interest them in another game with a decent amount of crunch, but you sound like you won't be able to stop them from seeing things in terms of win conditions, and wanting GP/XP equivalents to keep score.
And yes, D&D does hand the players too many tools to casually break plots/campaigns. Try to work around it where you can*, and if your players monkey wrench too much, don't think a system change will stop them.
*(Idea: The fluff says that other planes are more magical places. If you can't cast spells above third level on the prime, sixth level on the ethereal/inner, and are uncapped on the astral/outer, that'd allow you low-level primes without taking away all the players' toys. Assuming you make it easy enough for them to take extraplanar excursions when the time is right.)
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2011-09-23, 03:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
Sometimes a given campaign doesn't match a given system. Then, you have three options.
1. Swap systems. This requires talking everyone into it. I suggest leaving shiny new books around the table, and slowly building interest. This will not work on all player types. Some hate learning new things.
2. Swap campaign to fit. Don't have to dump it entirely....but adjust the concept to work better with the system. In this case, it sounds like making the campaign higher magic and so on. This is generally the easiest solution, as it does not require convincing anyone other than yourself. Still, depending how invested you are in the campaign, it may not be desirable.
3. Keep playing any way, and house rule things as they come up. This is included mostly for completeness, as it is roughly akin to solving the peg/hole issue by finding a sledgehammer.
I like going with #2 myself, as mid campaign system swaps can be...problematic, and then, in the future, carefully selecting system on the basis of what campaign I've got planned. The good news is, you now know a lot more about which campaigns go with which systems! Also, getting people into a between-campaigns one shot with pregenned charsis a much easier way to convince them to give something a try.
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2011-09-23, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
You're in pretty much the same situation I've found myself in lately, only one step ahead of where I was in that you've correctly identified the problem...
I have to say I'm not sure running a more narrative version of D&D would work for this group, unfortunately. IMO, you need to put your foot down and state that you just don't want to run D&D. I know that technically you just don't want to deal with some of the standard clichés of D&D, but those are probably the exact reasons why some or even all of your players want to play D&D. You might possibly have better luck with your group than I did with mine (it all does depend on the players), but I think if you try to do something different with D&D you are likely to end up with a situation where the players are really putting all of their energy into fighting against and/or subverting your attempts to run a more narrative game.
The players may or may not be willing to go for FATE, but IME if you give them any option to play D&D then those who want to play the standard clichés of D&D will simply attempt to do that, and any players who might be on board will likely find it easier to just go along with the other players... It's difficult if not impossible to take the same group and the same system and come up with different results, unless all of the players are really behind giving it a serious try.
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2011-09-23, 09:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
Hmm. Burning Wheel is a fantasy RPG that still has interesting crunch whilst introducing story and character elements into play. Character growth is certainly pretty organic, and magic is much lower-powered. It might be a great midway point to them, as it still has lots of crunch to fiddle with.
Burning Wheel Gold is the latest version (preview .zip file is here), and here is the main post explaining BWG.
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2011-09-23, 10:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
Burning Wheel has everything you want in this, really. Its heavy crunch with a good amount of narrative mechanics, high on tactical decisions (more so than D&D, in my opinion), has equal support for physical combat and social engagements, isn't class based, character advancement is organic (using skills improves them), magic items are rare and interesting but not more important/powerful than your actual character's skills, spellcasting has its place but isn't gamebreaking, and so on.
And, I guess just tell them that. This game isn't your typical hippie lovefest like Primetime Adventures. You will have to make legitimately hard mechanical decisions. More than you ever did with D&D. The elegance of the game is that it will take your drive to play optimally and turn it into compelling storytelling whether you intended it to be that way or not.
If you try to go in and play a "Kick down the door, kill the orcs because they look different than us, loot the bodies, get XP, and now lets go find bigger orcs" sort of game, you'll end up getting it, plus accidentally telling a much more awesome story on top of it. Just, effortlessly. It will just happen, independently of your group doing anything to make it happen.
(If you actually try to tell an amazing story - good lord.)
Its hard to explain. But, having been in a similar situation, I'm confident that if you can get your group to just stomach it for a session or two to get over their "OH MY GOD IT'S NOT D&D" attitude, it will make everyone happy and solve all your problems.
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2011-09-24, 01:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
I ran a Burning Wheel game last year for a blogger called Chatty DM. He's part of Critical Hits, the D&D blog that won the Ennie this year.
After looking at some other games, Mouse Guard, Leverage and Apocalypse World he wrote about how to take the things he liked from them and incorporate them into the D&D games he ran.
His advice on how he now runs D&D games can be found here.
Unfortunately it's inadvisable to change the game system of an existing campaign when someone isn't bought into change. If you can set aside time for a one shot then players can try before they buy. Even the doubters have to say "Let's give this a fair shot." This is true whether it's FATE of any of those I mentioned.
Edit: Most of us have made assumptions about what you want the game to do instead of being D&D. What do you see your game being about that the system isn't supporting?Last edited by Totally Guy; 2011-09-24 at 01:52 AM.
Mannerism RPG An RPG in which your descriptions resolve your actions and sculpts your growth.
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2011-09-24, 08:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
D&D does not at all sound like the right system for what you want to do. You might want to try something like Destiny of Heroes: https://sites.google.com/site/argopu...ions/documents
It's not hard to take a look at, since it's free to download.
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2011-09-24, 07:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
Thematically, the game is supposed to be largely about internal strength and things not being what they seem. The former goal is impeded by the heavy gear-dependence imposed by the system, and the latter by how the system forces characters into fixed roles and cripples anyone who tries to change the trajectory of their character's development mid-game. The combat-oriented nature of the game also makes it very difficult to have the players suffer any direct failures that don't result in character deaths, which puts me in a position of having to choose between short-changing the competence of NPCs and removing narrative tension, or risk losing the people who are supposed to be the main drivers of the plot (the PCs)
Mechanically, the default economy assumed by the D&D system, wherein adventurers routinely carry around the net worth of entire towns on their person, thoroughly breaks my suspension of disbelief as a worldbuilder. It also feeds the players' sense of entitlement towards magical gear. The high power level of the magic system is also a problem, especially the availability of resurrection magic, since the ways in which death and the afterlife function in my setting are one of the two most important things about it (the other being divine politics). Also, in this setting all spellcasting is divine in nature either directly (clerical magic, shamanism) or indirectly (scholarly magic learned by solving riddles left by the god of knowledge). This makes it an external power source, something which, while useful, I do not want players to have as their sole source of ability. Within D&D however, if I take away the cleric or the wizard's magic they have little to no ability to achieve much anymore, since the system encourages hyper-specialization to such a degree.
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2011-09-25, 04:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
Yeah, those are pretty deeply imbedded properties of D&D which probably makes the advice I posted insufficient to handle you problem.
I think you need to talk to the group about switching games using those tight few points as the fundamental problems that you have.
Also read more games until you find one that really excites you that'll play the game that you want to play.Mannerism RPG An RPG in which your descriptions resolve your actions and sculpts your growth.
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2011-09-25, 04:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2011-09-25, 04:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
It sounds like D&D is the wrong system for you, but the right system for your players. If you don't want to switch groups, you'll have to find a modus vivendi (which can also be letting someone else DM). Mechanics alone won't solve the problem of incompatible playing styles.
IMHO the main appeal of D&D is "hacking" the system to build the character or concept you want in a mechanically sound way. It has rather inflexible rules, but lots of them (sometimes contradictory, sometimes multiple solutions for the same problem that only differ in technicalities). This puts it pretty far in the "gamist" corner of systems ("narrativism" is IMHO an attribute that can't be applied to systems, only to play styles - you can have a narrativist approach to D&D, but a pure gamist won't find it enjoyable - and a pure simulationist won't find D&D enjoyable anyway).
Also, don't think too much about "your story", as this tends to lead to railroading. And while gamists usually don't care too much about railroading in a purely story-wise sense, they WILL be upset once you limit their mechanical choices without good reason or present them with "unfair" encounters.Want a generic roleplaying system but find GURPS too complicated? Try GMS.
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2011-09-25, 05:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Mannerism RPG An RPG in which your descriptions resolve your actions and sculpts your growth.
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2011-09-25, 07:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
I believe that with enough system familiarity on the DM's side, one can tweak D&D 3.5 to fit more setting ideas than one first thinks it possible.
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2011-09-25, 10:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
Mannerism RPG An RPG in which your descriptions resolve your actions and sculpts your growth.
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2011-09-25, 11:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
Agreed. A wild number of settings can exist in D&D, but gameplay in any of them tends be remarkably similar. Hell, you even see some bleed over in D&D modern because of the similarities. Some adventures in there sound a great deal like D&D games with renamed features.
D&D is fantastic at certain types of games. If you want to crawl through a dungeon, kill monsters, and take off with the loot...it's a solid choice. It can dabble in other things as well, but the focus is mostly on that.
If you want to run a non-combat, tense social investigatory game...D&D is not a particularly good choice. Oh, you can try to force it, but the system is fighting you, not helping. It's much more painful that it needs to be.
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2011-09-25, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
Best advice I can give is to ask them to give you a three-session chance. Which means:
1. Put the current game on pause,
2. Run a mini-campaign on FATE over three sessions,
3. See what they think.
Maybe they'll like it enough to let you transition the long-term campaign over. If they don't, no amount of debate is going to change things.I just published my first novella, Lúnasa Days, a modern fantasy with a subtle, uncertain magic.
You can grab it on Kindle or paperback.
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2011-09-25, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
Meh. I've been in enough D&D 3.5 games to know that its forte lies not with catering to dungeoncrawlers alone, but rather with its flexibility if you just are brave enough to tweak a couple of (or more) rules. But since the general idea seems to be suggesting new systems, I'll not argue further.
Last edited by Cespenar; 2011-09-25 at 02:27 PM.
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2011-09-25, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2011-09-25, 02:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
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2011-09-25, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
I think that Knaight is arguing mechanics, whereas Cespenar is arguing results. System does matter, but so do the players. The problem with a purely "system matters" approach is that in discarding the (pointlessly disparaging) idea that "you aren't getting the results you want because you just aren't a good enough gamer" it also can tend to toss out the fact that how the players approach the game definitely does affect the outcome. Most system-matters games seem to approach this by punishing the "wrong" play style (usually indirectly). Which is fine as far as it goes - they're also (IME pretty universally) pretty upfront about what they're trying to do. The usual stumbling point will be players who are used to reading any instructions on how to use a game system as vague suggestions at best.
3.5 (or whatever edition) D&D is actually far more useful for some players in running a story-based game (whether this is narativism or not I don't really know; g/n/s tends to break down when you're talking about actual systems / actual play) in that they do not want the system to have much direct impact on how they tell the story. I think this group seems to be diminishing, so perhaps that was simply a reaction to dealing with the desire for that type of game before there where systems that really handled it, mechanically.
Anyway, back around to the OP, I think that while I agree with Cespenar that you can get the results you're looking for from 3.5, the willingness not just to accept rules tweaks, but to try a different mode of play at all, seems absent from these players (AFAICT). Just as the simplest example that I can come up with - awarding "story XP" doesn't help if the players are willing to forgo that XP because they find story stuff too much of a chore to bother with.
The basic issue is that we game to have fun, and XP, FATE points, or whatever are strictly secondary (or at least should be - I have encountered players who have stuck it out with games they just weren't having fun with; heck, I've been that player once or twice...). No system is actually "sprinkled with magical pixie dust" to the extent that it actually produces great results regardless of the players.
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2011-09-25, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
So the characters have a lot of stuff? So what? Say they each have ten magic items, as long as they don't have 10 rings of wishing, then they won't have stuff for every conceivable thing that might happen. Try not to think of magic items as 'external', but more 'internal' parts of a character.
Not true. You can make a character any way you want too. When you say 'cripples' your sounding like a min/maxing roll player. There is nothing wrong with playing an archer with a dex of 11 or a wizard that is bad at casting spells.
Any drama needs to have loss and/or failure, or it's pointless. If the good guys can just blink and save the day, why bother playing?
Other then death, you have three big failures to use in the game:
1.Loss of stuff. Simple enough, the magic sword breaks or the ring falls into a volcano or such.
2.Afflictions. Things such as curses and magical effects.
3.Drama stuff. Sure they can kill Mr Bad, but if he kills princess Joy first, then it's a failure.
This is a common problem with many players, and most feel the answer is to go 'low magic'. The idea is that a 'gritty, dirty setting is better. But I have a better way to go.....go high magic. This very nicely balances things out. The characters might have tons of magic stuff, but so does everyone else. Even just giving the world common access to low level magic is great.
Why not change the way raising the dead works? Sure the PH says 'snap your fingers' and your alive...but you can change that.
And Divine Politics....make them more active in the world. My gods are, and it works out great.
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2011-09-25, 08:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
In a heroic miniatures tactical battlemat game where survival hinges on competence at combat? Yes, yes there IS a problem with playing characters which can't pull their weight. 1.) Your character dies. Or you cause the party to die. 2.) Verisimilitude of the game setting breaks when, due to your 'PC Halo' the party keeps on traveling with you and giving you a full share of the loot, and doesn't kick you out, even though you are a liability to the party.
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2011-09-25, 08:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
I don't see how I can do so. Magic items are something someone has, not something they are. Anyone else could pick up those items and get the same effect out of them, so what about them makes the PCs so special?
Not true. You can make a character any way you want too. When you say 'cripples' your sounding like a min/maxing roll player. There is nothing wrong with playing an archer with a dex of 11 or a wizard that is bad at casting spells.
Any drama needs to have loss and/or failure, or it's pointless. If the good guys can just blink and save the day, why bother playing?
Other then death, you have three big failures to use in the game:
1.Loss of stuff. Simple enough, the magic sword breaks or the ring falls into a volcano or such.
2.Afflictions. Things such as curses and magical effects.
3.Drama stuff. Sure they can kill Mr Bad, but if he kills princess Joy first, then it's a failure.
2. D&D doesnt make it very easy to give a character any long-term afflictions that arent easily solvable via magic, especially since there is a cleric in the party.
3. One of my main sources of frustration is how preoccupation with the mechanics is keeping the players from so much as remembering the names of quest NPCs. Part of the reason I want to switch to a system like FATE where the mechanics are more closely tied to the narrative is to force the party to care more.
This is a common problem with many players, and most feel the answer is to go 'low magic'. The idea is that a 'gritty, dirty setting is better. But I have a better way to go.....go high magic. This very nicely balances things out. The characters might have tons of magic stuff, but so does everyone else. Even just giving the world common access to low level magic is great.
Why not change the way raising the dead works? Sure the PH says 'snap your fingers' and your alive...but you can change that.
And Divine Politics....make them more active in the world. My gods are, and it works out great.
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2011-09-25, 08:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
I think the example of a character who is bad at what they're supposed to do is just kind of a bad example. While you can certainly make an interesting character for which this holds true, I think that there's going to be something more significant that makes the character cool / interesting / dramatic; quite possibly that's going to be why the character is attempting a role they aren't really suited for in the first place.
One of D&D strengths is that it doesn't really do anything to stop you from roleplaying any way you want to (well, possibly alignment), but that also means that it has nothing that really encourages anything particular. You can award "story XP" and such, but I've generally found that it's not really a serious incentive as much as just a "reward" for players who came to the table wanting the same things the DM did. And the problem with XP (and magic items, and any other power-ups) in D&D is that there has developed a real expectation of a particular rate of progress that IMO tends to be a really significant push towards seeing power acquisition as the major or even only significant measure of progress in the game. Characters don't tend to get played as if they had any desires or goals beyond that.
Edit: you posted this while I was typing...
I really hope this works out for you. Unfortunately it's been my experience that you really can't force players to care more about NPCs or the world or the story. What you can do is give them more room to care, and I think that ideally FATE does this: Since more of the story-stuff ends up getting on the character sheets, where the players not only have to but hopefully want to pay attention to it (they want FATE points, yes?), it becomes less of a chore to remember such stuff. Hopefully this leads to the players finding that they enjoy this style of game.Last edited by kaomera; 2011-09-25 at 08:39 PM. Reason: avoid double-posting
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2011-09-25, 08:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
Yeah, and the sheer rate at which characters advance in power under D&D completely breaks my immersion, as I cant help but think of them as mary sues when they can achieve in a few months what 99.9999% of the world takes decades to do.
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2011-09-25, 08:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
Might want to try and resolve why the group is trying to optimize so much. Did they try to do this before in GURPS? It sounds like this isn't an issue with making the game fit the campaign, but making your players fit the campaign. For whatever reason, they see "D&D" and think "We need to be optimized!"
On the topic of magic items: They're a part of the character like a warriors sword is, and a mages spells are. Worst comes to worst, use a leveling items system and make their equipment literally part of them. The Fighter has his ancestral sword, some cool armor, and a couple of 'trinkets' that fit him in some way. It's fairly easy to create/price up new magic items using Pathfinder rules, not sure about 3.5 as I haven't looked in a while - one of my recent characters, as part of his gear, had a ring that let him use Cure Light Wounds 3/day, rather than disposable wands or potions or whatnot.
Ninja Edit: Then slow it down. Less experience. Give them rewards in the form of LOOT loot - more disposable items, petty cash, and so on, rather than magic items, tons of gold, etc. Once again, cool trinkets are always interesting, and don't have to be potent or combat enhancing to be well liked and useful.Last edited by Darkone8752; 2011-09-25 at 08:42 PM.
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2011-09-25, 08:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
That's (potentially) one of the big secrets of D&D: the players really are Mary-Sues. The kind of wish fulfillment that you can get with D&D doesn't always come up the same way in other games, although it's almost always there in some way. This really ought to be / is supposed to be a significant strength of the system, and for a lot of players (probably most / nearly all) it is.
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2011-09-25, 08:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Square system, round game
I know, but it rubs me the wrong way. I take it as an insult to all of the other people in the setting who don't happen to be controlled by players, since it leads the players to considering them dumb and useless, and I find it removes any sense of meaning from the power gain when it comes so easily. Mastering a skill or spell should be an achievement, not something that can be taken care of with a few weeks of dungeon crawling.
Last edited by Niek; 2011-09-25 at 08:57 PM.