Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XI

[BobVosh]

So any update from DaragosKitsune , and I missed it?

Yes, because I am incompetent. Just so long as there is a reason >.<

[Keld Denar]

There, finally done. Now, off to the gym for me! EDIT: Sorry for taking so long. Last week was hell on me at work...
Moudo

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Originality: 4, I like Twisted Lord and Aberrant Blood. Both really unique. Starspawn is kinda goofy, but really useful. An unnervingly calm badass gnome is…badass.

Power: 4, this build really taps into the strengths of Blade Bravado. Tough to target, tough to hit with attacks and touch attacks, decent offense with SA. No real way to deal with things that can’t be SA, but ok damage output vs them and can be a cork tank as needed, especially with Goad.

Elegance: 3, couple rules issues I have. Ring of Reduce Person is a custom item. I don’t like custom items, especially continuous custom items, as they are often inherently unbalanced. Precedent for a similar item is a 1/day belt from MIC that does Enlarge Person. 1 per day is rather limited for your main schtick. The other thing is the wand of Grave Strike. The spell is personal, which means you can’t give it to someone else. It also only lasts for 1 round. Typically, its placed in a wand chamber in one of your weapons, then activated with UMD. You don’t have UMD. Thus, it’s worthless. Thus, you have no way to SA a number of things that are inherently immune. The drawback of SA fighter is that it doesn’t have the other rogue abilities that you can trade for the ACFs you need to penetrate those defenses.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 4, Blade Bravado and Twisted Lord really synergize well. They support each other in a way that makes each stronger together than they would be apart. Aberrant Blood as well offsets a lot of the problems with being that small. Well done.

Sizok

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Originality: 4, its not so much that you used Stoneblessed, so much as you used Stoneblessed well. I expected to see a few Stoneblessed, and will not mark you, or anyone else down for it. I like the Dromite, though, and it fits.

Power: 4, a tough nut to crack. Super high AC makes her hard to handle, and Goad makes her tough to ignore, and Dim Hop makes her impossible to lock down. All in all, a great tank. I do see only one rank in UMD, and mention of using Wands of Grave/Golem Strike as a primary combat option, which is kinda…huh?

Elegance: 4, build progresses well. Great use of obvious level cut-offs. No multiclass penalty. Little late getting Compression, but by the time the build gets it, she can fully augment it. Great technical write-up.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 5, really a gnome’s gnome. Crushes people with her size (dis)advantage. The build utilizes nearly every aspect of the PrC to its fullest potential.

Wruk

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Originality: 5, wow, what an excellent play on words. Wruk, or shall we call him Rook? Excellent story, excellent choice of classes and features, especially Exarch.

Power: 4.5, in his element, this character is amazing. Within his city, he’s pretty much unbeatable. He’s impossible to outmaneuver, and impossible to pin down. Outside of this, he’s still very formidable, but slightly less so.

Elegance: 3, this is the spot I gotta mark ya down. This ends up being a much better NPC than a PC. Especially with the auto-escape button and affinity to his city, this guy’s fighting style works better with disposable mooks or solo hit-and-run than in a typical party arrangement. Also, the Mindsight trick, while immensely powerful, would be an absolute bear for the DM to try to abdicate. Also, Xorvintaal Exarch is a template, which means it doesn’t give HD, yet you gave him a feats and skills past 12 as if they were HD. I might be missing something, but that doesn’t sound right.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 2, Blade Bravado doesn’t seem to really give a lot here. Yea, you have the Compression + size advantage combo, but it just seems like it plays such a small role in the build compared to Xorvintaal Exarch and Dragonstalker. It makes me wonder if you’d be better served with Rogue levels or Psychic Rogue levels instead.

Nekoya

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Originality: 5, probably the most unique use of Stoneblessed in this competition. Tibbits are awesome.

Power: 2, lack of focus hurts here. You have Eldritch Glaive, but only 2d6 base damage until 8th level and then only 4d6 at 10. You have no other real source of bonus damage until BB SA kicks and you pick up Craven. Also, you have Deceive Item, but only three ranks in UMD. At 20 you’ll have a +14 with your Cha score, which is enough to auto-make wands, but leaves you kinda dry on scrolls. Even then, you won’t be able to auto-make wands until you have a 24 Cha, which would probably be around 8-10. Your AC will be ok, but not amazing, so Goading will probably get you squished.

Elegance: 2, build seems kinda unfocused. Blade Bravado comes really late in the build. By the time you get Size Advantage, its already REALLY late. Also, you have Weapon Focus (rapier) twice at 9 and 10. Lastly, the trip trick you described doesn’t work. Tripping as a cat functions exactly the same as tripping as a person, except as described in the feat. Since the feat only changes the fact that you can use your Dex instead of your Str, size bonuses and penalties still apply. Which means that you have your MASSIVE -8 penalty you have for being Tiny vs the +4 or greater your foe will have for size alone. Even if your stats line up, that’s a big delta.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 2, Blade Bravado adds very little other than Size Advantage. Granted, that’s an awesome ability for a Tibbit who can become size Tiny at will, but I think you could better accomplish most of the results with more warlock on your tibbit chassis.

Raakhama'karma

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Originality: 2, of all of the Stoneblessed, this probably the least creatively done. Very little justification in the whole deal, and

Power: 1, LA makes this build start off slow. Given that it’s a melee build, and a light skirmisher at that, I wouldn’t expect this guy to live past level 1 (ECL4!!!). On top of that, is very MAD requiring Wis, Dex, Con, Str, and Cha. Given that it doesn’t advance any bonus damage other than 2d6 SA on top of the 1d8 base UAS damage, but Weapon Focus: Rapier, this build isn’t gonna kill anything fast, especially at high levels. Not even Craven to help out. Also, ranged focus Ranger in a build that thrives off melee, and it comes soooooo late. At that point, even looking at a bow will leave you behind. You can’t flurry with a rapier, so those abilities counter each other. On top of all of that, you are medium sized, with no way of reducing this. You aren’t even a legal target for Reduce Person, since you aren’t a “person”. That means you derive almost no benefit from Size Advantage or Small But Deadly.

Elegance: 1, almost no mechanical summary. Build does not flow. Uses LA buyoff (I’m guessing) but doesn’t mention it anywhere in the build. Technical build very lacking in description. Also, doesn’t cite any sources. Review previous entries for inspiration on how much and what information you should provide.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 1, BB is forced here. Why does this build use it? Who knows? Doesn’t optimize any of the features. At all.

Ssejkosjth

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Originality: 4, Shadowmind is a great PrC to splice Swordsage and PsyWar, and a good lead-in to Blade Bravado.

Power: 4, like most of the tank builds in this competition, this build succeeds at being very hard to crack. Great saves, good HP, amazing AC, especially vs things that are larger than medium. Goad DC is a little lacking due to lack of focus on Cha, but should be fine with proper positioning.

Elegance: 3, one thing I noted…PrCs that don’t grant maneuvers (all PrCs except the ones in ToB minus Bloodstorm Blade) only give ½ an IL each. You have a listed IL of 17 at level 19. Really, your IL should be 11 at 19, and still 11 at 20. Other than that, things look good. Build flows, utilizes various break points (PsyWar4, Swordsage2, BladeBravado5) well, and synergizes wisdom in a great way.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 5, build fully embraces the ideal of gnomish combat. Focuses on hitting hard despite low Str, and being a capable opponent vs large opponents. Very well executed.

Jack

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Originality: 4, were-monkey. Cool beans. I was a little skeptical at first, but then I loled.

Power: 4.5, LA makes starting off a bit scary for a skirmisher, but when Giantbane kicks in, creates an EXTREMELY difficult and deadly opponent. Nearly impossible to hit, or dislodge, and with the darkness up, to target. Any area spells will hit the creature you are mounted on, which won’t go well at ALL for that foe.

Elegance: 5, build flows well, which is kinda surprising for a build with LA and racial HD. Really synergizes the monkey racial climb ability, especially the +dex instead of +str aspect. Well made.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 5, even though the build may not LOOK like a gnome most of the time, it fights with Gnomish tenacity, utilizing all of their tricks in a very surprising and creative manner. Very Shadows of the Colossus. I wonder what would happen if you used Climb Aboard and then Goaded someone to attack you. I guess nothing, since it doesn’t specify, but I still find it hilarious.

Dulcinea

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Originality: 4, binders are always a grab bag. This build pulls out Paimon and never looks back. I’d be surprised if Paimon wasn’t a Gnomish Blade Bravado before becoming a vestige.

Power: 5, strong from the start and never sagging, this build delivers. The Cha synergy and secondary utilization of Dex is astounding. Great AC, great attacks, great tricks, and plenty of out-of-combat utility. I love the Mosh Pit combo, Staggering Strike is an amazing feat, and you really capitalize on it. Great attack, great defense, has options when SAing isn’t an option, and great out-of-combat utility. Very nice.

Elegance: 4.5, build flows extremely well. Pally sub levels fit perfectly, and Pally4 it about the best cutoff there is because it snags Turn Undead for awesome Divine feats. The Cha synergy is staggering, if you’ll forgive the pun. Since I marked someone else down for the custom Reduce Person ring, I’ll have to mark you down to though.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 5, as I said, Paimon must have been a Blade Bravado. Very nice utilization of all of the BB tricks and very nicely synergized Cha tactics that really play off BB’s “social combat” feel.

Jakob

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Originality: 4, Lurk is something you don’t see often. This build really brings it to the table. It’s good to do something unusual, its best to do something unusual well.

Power: 4, this build takes size advantage to the highest (or lowest) level. Being smaller than almost anything that isn’t a swarm, Jakob is a furious combatant. Didn’t really address the severe lack of PP, though, especially if you are augmenting Compression fully on a regular basis.

Elegance: 3, please note that I’m not marking you down for not finishing BB. You exited when you got EXACTLY what you wanted, which was Size Advantage. You lost points for using Drow Fighter as a non-drow, and a bit for having a multiclass penalty at various points in its career. While I don’t like em, and don’t use em, they are still a part of the game and you can’t just ignore it. Also, Factotum at the end seems a little forced, like you ran out of other material to use. Also, no mention of other Psionic powers other than Compression. Other than that, build looks pretty straight.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 4, become one of them. Learn their ways. Stab them from under their own tiny feet. This build takes the strongest feature of BB, Size Advantage, to the highest level.

All in all, well done. Looking back, I scored a lot of builds pretty highly, especially on Power. Almost everyone picked up on the strengths of Blade Bravado and made it effective. I do think it would be hilarious to see Jakob and Jack fight. It would amuse me greatly, but I think you’d need a microscope to run accurate fight commentary on the brawl.

[Draz74]

Yay for judging getting done! Are we still waiting on one judge, then?

[Keld Denar]

Yay for judging getting done! Are we still waiting on one judge, then?

My computer crashed, taking my judging with it. I'm updating from a PSP to state that I will be unable to submit a judgement.

I'm gonna go with no, so tally away and good luck to the winners. Please note that I didn't look at ANY other judge's results or the current standings when I did my judging, so as not to be biased.

[Draz74]

I'm gonna go with no, so tally away and good luck to the winners. Please note that I didn't look at ANY other judge's results or the current standings when I did my judging, so as not to be biased.

Odd, if I'm not mistaken, you picked the same #1 and #2-best entries as the other judges. Neither of which is mine, unfortunately. I think you scored me 3rd-best, though.

[true_shinken]

Keld, it's actually Blade Bravo, not Blade Bravado.
Nice to see your judgings, hope your stuff at work is going ok.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, work is better. The thing about emergencies is that they generally require a LARGE amount of time upfront, but once you get the details hammered out, management of them becomes relatively simple. Its kinda like triage. Once you get the patient stablized, you've done 90% of the work. All that's required afterwards is time to heal and close monitoring for additional complications. While we've had complications (there are something like a dozen holes in the sewer main, rather than just the one big one we found initially), at least the problem was isolated. Then its just a matter of choosing the right size scalpel.

And I don't care what the damned class is called. If I wanna call it bravado, I'll call it bravado. Because thats how the class fights, right? Which build was yours so I can mark it down 2 points across the board for undesired pedantery!

[Cadian 9th]

I've looked through the pages and yeah, I've noticed many builds using Weapon Finesse at 1st level with non-base attack +1 classes. Such as Psychic Warrior, etc.

I don't get it, is this allowed?

[Greyfell]

**anxiously awaits the final verdict (and the new contest! ) **

[Thurbane]

I've looked through the pages and yeah, I've noticed many builds using Weapon Finesse at 1st level with non-base attack +1 classes. Such as Psychic Warrior, etc.

I don't get it, is this allowed?

...speaking of which, I'm also slightly dubious of the vestige Paimon being used in place of the Weapon Finesse feat. His ability is worded as:

Paimon’s Blades: You gain proficiency with the rapier and short sword, and the benefit of the Weapon Finesse feat when you wield such weapons.

...I can see two issues with this - first, when you're not bound to Paimon, you technically don't meet the reqs of the Blade Bravo PrC any more (although the RAW of whether this causes issue once you are into the PrC or not is oft debated); and also, you "gain the benefits of the feat", so by letter of the law, you don't possess the feat to qualify for the PrC.

Now, either of these are quite easily (and reasonably, IMHO) hand waved by the DM, but whether it is RAW legal or not is debatable.

[Gametime]

The most common interpretation of losing prestige class benefits is that you lose access to class features and the like for as long as you do not possess the prerequisites, but keep HD, hit points, BAB, base saves, and so on.

By strict RAW, however, I don't believe there's anything in the core rules mandating this, and in fact the DMG only mentions (if memory serves) the necessity of prerequisites before you enter a prestige class. Losing prerequisites is only addressed in a few books, like Complete Warrior, and always in the context of referring to the prestige classes in that book. Races of Stone has no such section, so a strict RAW reading doesn't have any issue with failing to qualify for the class once you've already gotten in.

[Cadian 9th]

If weapon finesse requirements are to be met, I can see a few of these builds suffering in the low level range, but that's beside the point. Really cool builds, I'm all pumped for the next challenge

[Keld Denar]

Eh, I read Paimon as similar to a Ranger's virtual feats. They technically have the feat, but only when in light armor. A Binder technically has the feat, so long as they bind Paimon every morning. A meldshaper who uses Impulse Boots for Evasion to qualify for something like Foclycan Lyricist technically has evasion, so long as they shape that meld every morning.

Plus, its freakin cool...

[BobVosh]

I've looked through the pages and yeah, I've noticed many builds using Weapon Finesse at 1st level with non-base attack +1 classes. Such as Psychic Warrior, etc.

I don't get it, is this allowed?

Actually I missed it since most of them got it at second level or later.
However they can all pick it up one level later switching with these feats:

Jack: combat expertise
Ssejkosjth: combat reflexes
Wruk: combat expertise

[Thurbane]

Plus, its freakin cool...

Oh absoultely, Binders are soul binding are one of my favorite things in 3.5!

Dulcinea is definitely my sentimental favorite for this comp.

[Cadian 9th]

Actually I missed it since most of them got it at second level or later.
However they can all pick it up one level later switching with these feats:

Jack: combat expertise
Ssejkosjth: combat reflexes
Wruk: combat expertise

Yet those feats are useless at 1st level since you don't have any base attack, am I right? Combat reflexes is good though...

[Draz74]

Yet those feats are useless at 1st level since you don't have any base attack, am I right? Combat reflexes is good though...

Yeah, ironically, Weapon Finesse is incredibly useful to a lot of BAB +0 builds, but is out-of-reach for them, which Combat Expertise is allowed to them, but is utterly useless until they gain some BAB.

[BobVosh]

Yeah, ironically, Weapon Finesse is incredibly useful to a lot of BAB +0 builds, but is out-of-reach for them, which Combat Expertise is allowed to them, but is utterly useless until they gain some BAB.

Ah, PHB. How silly you are.

[Cadian 9th]

Yeah, ironically, Weapon Finesse is incredibly useful to a lot of BAB +0 builds, but is out-of-reach for them, which Combat Expertise is allowed to them, but is utterly useless until they gain some BAB.

I pay more and more respect to the humble 1st level fighter.

Using the DotU ACF for good measure, we've got a tasty level, d6 sneak attack, d10 HD, full base attack. Can take weapon finesse as well!

Alternatively, the Sneak attack thug is nice too.

[Ozymandias9]

I'm off to work shortly, but I'm off tomorrow. I'll try post any appeals early tomorrow.

[WinWin]

Competing is far more fun than judging. I am looking forward to seeing the next secret ingredient.

[OMG PONIES]

I second that! Ozy, any chance you can post up ICO XII while we do the final bits here? Also, as per my spreadsheet, the current standings are as follows:

{table=head]PLACE|NAME|TOTAL|AVERAGE
Gold|Dulcinea|69.5|4.34375
Silver|Jack|67.75|4.234375
Third|Sizok|62|3.875
Fourth|Ssejkosjth|58.25|3.640625
Fifth|Moudo|57.75|3.609375
Sixth|Nekoya|57.25|3.578125
Seventh|Jakob|55.75|3.484375
Eighth|Wruk Vive the IX|52.75|3.296875
Ninth|Raakhama’Karma|32.5|2.03125[/table]

[Thurbane]

For future reference, what's the word on LA adjusted races in ICOC? I thought I read that LA buyoff is allowed, but will result in not having enough XP to reach level 20?

P.S. Congrats to Dulcinea...Binders FTW!

[WinWin]

Most of the builds using LA in this competition included buyoff as an adaptation, much the same as flaws and traits.

XP is somewhat flexible. It does not increase at a strictly linear rate. A level 3 character in a party with level 4's is going to gain XP at a rate faster in relation to the rest of the group. They could be behind in levels due to LA, magic item creation or energy drain.

In my experience (I have run a lot of short games, levels 1-10 and a a couple of long campains going to early/mid epic) being behind on an xp total does not overly effect progression. One lost level is not noticable by the time the group is average level 10, 2 or more lost levels as strange as it sounds are easily recovered by the mid teen levels...Provided they are bought off or recovered early. The exact total may be off by anywhere from a few hundred xp to thousands, but I do not see it as a great hurdle.

This is just my opinion. I think a judge should use their discretion. But if a rule is put in place to penalise LA, then Item Creation should also be penalised. Giving competitors carte blanche to add in as many aquired templates as they can and 1/2 price gear will cause quite a few headaches. I personally think that making an overly complex character should result in a major loss of elegance and could even cause UoSI to be overshadowed by other features of a build.

Sorry for the length of my post lol.

[The Gilded Duke]

So not sure exactly how to use it, but I was looking through the Blade Bravo Class and I noticed something interesting.

Size Advantage: A Blade Bravo gets +2 dodge bonus to AC for each size category of difference between them and their foe.

It doesn't say the Blade Bravo has to be the smaller of the two.

Perhaps some kind of Large sized gnome, with levels in War Mind or War Hulk and a reach weapon. Attack multiple foes once per turn when someone misses you.

Was there any errata on Size Advantage that makes the ac bonus only work against larger foes?

[OMG PONIES]

I'd call that a good catch, but some DMs may veto based on the beginning of the entry:

By 5th level, a blade bravo starts focusing on fighting larger opponents. A blade bravo gains a +2 dodge bonus to her AC per size category of difference between her and her foe.

Some might say that the focus on fighting larger opponents makes it clear, but others may argue the simple RAW of the second sentence. Of course, you'd lose the advantage of the Small But Deadly class feature, but it may be worth it in some scenarios.

I'd be interested to see what tricks could actually take advantage of this reading. Most of the large builds you usually see discussed (tripper, hulking hurler, ubercharger) don't give a whiff about AC. I'm thinking of the hilarity of size advantage on a creature with Swallow Whole to make it harder for the little appetizers to stab their way out.

[Keld Denar]

I still want to see Jack and Jakob duel to the death...FOR GREAT JUSTICE!

[The Gilded Duke]

True, it does say "better at fighting larger opponents". The crit confirmation would be wasted, but that is just one feature. As far as builds.

Bull rush gets a bonus from size categories.
Disarm gets a bonus from size categories.
Grapple gets a bonus from size categories, and immunity to grapple from creatures two sizes smaller or more.
Overun gets a bonus from size categories.
Sunder gets a bonus from size categories.
Trip gets a bonus from size categories.
There is also the whole weapon size thing.

I wonder if there is some good way to get size increases over time.
Expansion can give up to two size categories, does it stack with enlarge person?

Probably not "multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack" If psionics magics transparency is being used it probably blocks this.

Starting large size is difficult, especially if its also going to be a gnome.

[Amphetryon]

Are we waiting for Ozy to reveal the builds' creators and the final tally, or is OMG's tally accurate?

[OMG PONIES]

I'd like to think my tally's accurate, but we're waiting on Ozy to post any contentions and, later, to reveal the chefs.