Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

[zalmatra]

dnd isnt balanced for 1v1 the balance is more party versus monsters/party of monsters/ party of evil adventurers/ single boss creature

if you have a smart dm that constructs a proper 3d environment the power between classes shifts quite a bit along with requiring knowledge skills

[Myth]

I've made a simple, illustrative build using the spymaster class that Ozymandias9 brought to my attention, which I believe could assassinate any wizard, without being built specifically to counter one, and is also useful against monsters, and playable at all levels:

Human Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Ghost-Faced Killer 7/Spymaster 7

1: Rogue 1
2: Rogue 2
3: Rogue 3
4: Fighter 1
5: Fighter 2
6: Rogue 4
7: Spymaster 1
8: Spymaster 2
9: Spymaster 3
10: Ghost-Faced Killer 1
11: Ghost-Faced Killer 2
12: Ghost-Faced Killer 3
13: Ghost-Faced Killer 4
14: Ghost-Faced Killer 5
15: Ghost-Faced Killer 6
16: Ghost-Faced Killer 7
17: Spymaster 4
18: Spymaster 5
19: Spymaster 6
20: Spymaster 7

Human: Improved Initiative
1: Skill Focus (Bluff)
3: Mage Slayer
Fighter 1: Weapon Finesse
Fighter 2: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Court Blade)
6: Blind Fight
9: Power Attack
12: Pierce Magical Concealment
15: Darkstalker
18: Pierce Magical Protection

It can penetrate all magical defenses with Pierce Magical Protection, Pierce Magical Concealment, and ghost-faced killer's Ghost Sight. It can kill most, if not all wizards in one round with a full attack. It can easily get a full attack off by being immune to divinations, and using Darkstalker-assisted Hide. So the plan is to walk up to the wizard, kill him while he's still flatfooted (can't use immediate actions), then walk away.

If you think it would help more, you could drop the ghost-faced killer levels and add in Hide in Plain Sight, wearing a Blindfold of True Darkness to see through superior invisibility. You could also get the spymaster capstone as early as level 12. I just thought this build was cooler .

Here are my damage calculations:

Spoiler

Show

Weapon:

+5 Elven Court Blade (1d10, 18-20/x2)

Binding (+1, casts Dimensional Anchor on-hit as a swift action for 10 minutes, 2/day, MIC)
Holy (+2, 2d6 extra damage against evil creatures, SRD) (use whatever applies to the wizard's alignment)
Magebane (+1, 2d6 extra damage against arcane spellcasters and creatures with arcane SLAs, +2 weapon enhancement against the same, MIC)
Vicious (+1, 2d6 extra damage, but 1d6 damage done to wielder, SRD)

Damage:

1d10 (base) + 7 (enhancement) + 6d6 (weapon abilities) + 6d6 (sneak attack) + 34 (power attack) + 10 (Strength) =
1d10 + 12d6 + 51 = 5.5 + 42 + 51 avg = 98.5 average damage per hit

Damage with Brilliant Energy Weapon, keeping Magebane: 84.5 average damage per hit

Damage with Brilliant Energy Weapon, if sneak attack is denied, and you don't use Power Attack because his AC is unrealistically high (the lowest amount you could possibly do): 29.5 average damage per hit

Activate belt of battle if necessary to easily take out foe in one round. 29.5 x 4 x 2 = 236, so all attacks don't need to hit, but probably will. Again, this is way too conservative of a number, but it is nearly 100% reliable, which is why I put it here.

So counter that. If any liberal interpretations are required to counter it, keep in mind that a liberal interpretation of Deep Cover (spymaster 7's ability) makes you immune to see invisibility and true seeing. So you could walk around throwing sticks at the wizard until he dies, and he couldn't really do anything in return. But I think that, even in a reasonable, non-TO game, in which the spymaster class is taken, the rogue has a big advantage over the wizard, possibly as much as a wizard has over a fighter.

For reference, the relevant line from Deep Cover reads as follows: "While she operates under deep cover, divination spells detect only information appropriate to her cover identity; they reveal nothing related to her spymaster persona."

Edit: And from reading some more of the counters listed in this thread, you can remove all of the wizard's contingencies with a targeted scroll of disjunction. Neither of which (ridiculous contingencies or disjunction) would see play in a normal game.

For you my friend, and for those of you just joining this fine, 15 page discussion:

1. Despite my original post, this thread has, for the most part, been about the killing of a theoretical level 20 Wizard.
2. As such the DM is not a valid way of reasoning out of broken spells.
3. It is assumed by the majority of this fine community that, a very intelligent level 20 Wizard will take the best advantage out of his spells and protect himself to the best of his ability.
4. The following effects are assumed based on point 3:
4.1. The Wizard's real body is sitting home at his private demiplane, created via Genesis.
4.2. The Wizard will usually be using Astral Projection. If the silver cord is serverd he has Clones waiting around, or contingent Ressurections etc. So this point is moot.
4.3 Assuming we can somehow get the Wizard to step out of his home in physical form, he has taken further precautions. Those are:
4.3.1. He has cast Foresight, either extended via rod, or persisted via the Incantatrix class ability. This means he is never flatfooted.
4.3.2. He has memorized Celerity, or Greater Celerity (PHBII) which lets him act when imitative is rolled. Hence the Wizard always goes first.
4.3.3. He will cast Contact Other Plane to be even better prepared. See the vast discussion about the spell's effectiveness above.
4.3.4 He will be flying around, by virtue of his Phantom Steed, or will simply Teleport to his destination. This eliminates anyone walking up behind him as he is strolling trough the park. We are not talking about Gandalif and his walking stick here.
4.3.5. Whenever he has to rest out of the comfort of his Demiplane, he will not do so at an inn, or eat foot prepared by level 1 Commoners. He has a Magnificent Mansion at his disposal to cover for those needs. So stabbing him while he is sleeping is also quite hard to pull off.
4.5.6. Even if you are somehow able to get to him, and past Foresight + Celerity, he has Contingency and Crafted Contingencies so he can safely get away from you.


Things that have been proposed, and are remotely viable are:

Using 10 levels of Silver Key to enter his Demiplane and MMM spell.
Using Black Dog to somehow poison him.
Going action Nova in round 0 and splattering him with physical attacks.

Those however, while overcoming some of the Wizard's advantages, can't really cope with everything he's got.

[Emperor Tippy]

If I read this right, having beholderslayer saying the same thing over and over again means nothing. But Emperor Tippy`s word means he can finish this in one page?

No offense to you Tippy, but I feel like I want to scream. I haven`t felt nerd rage in a while, damn!

Didn't you look at my signature? I equal win.

[Lord_Gareth]

All shall bow before Emperor Tippy and his Tier 1 might!

[The Shadowmind]

Okay lets even to odds a bit in favor of the attacking team. 3vs1.
The team of three is 1 Factotum lvl 20, 1 Psychic Warrior(prestige classes recommended) 1 Shadowcaster 3/Beguiler1/Noctumancer10/Mystic Theurge 6.
Tactics:
The Shadowcaster is for counterspelling, and if you can find a way to make it work with just a equivalent of the Command spell that affects intelligent constructs then find a way to get a large quantity of Adamantinehorrors under your control to cast Mage’s Disjunction.(Need method to reduce the wizard's will save or make it irrelevant)(Just get a method to have Mage's Disjunction cast often somehow). The wizard will likely teleport, but that is a few contingencies down, then shadowwalk to get to the wizard again, repeat till unable to follow.

The Factotum and the Psychic Warrior will need ranks in the Lucid Dream skill(The PsiWar will have to take them crossclass).
Factotum and PsiWar enter the Wizard's dreamscape while the wizard is rest to re-prepare lots spells.

The PsiWar there is to play the game of who goes firstest with things like Anticipatory strike and Synchronicity. The wizard can't teleport out of the dreamscape, his astral projection is irrelevant, the solar's he gated in are nowhere to help, and many contingencies have been blown for the day along with spell slots.

The Factotum now can use things like scrolls of shapechange and timestop, as well as extra actions for cunning surge to play on closer to equal ground with the Wizard. Still going to be a close fight. the Factotum if low on scrolls can just exit the Dreamscape and returning with all the used ones replaced and at full hp and ip. If succesful in reducing the wizard to negatives drag the body to the Dreamheart and finish him there.
While this is going on if the Shadowcaster/Beguiler is still alive he should be working on remove the clones and severing the cord to astral projection.


It isn't a perfect strategy, and it needs some work.

[crizh]

Less than 1% is, indeed, very close to zero. It still is not zero.

It's still not 12% which is what the table says is the chance that the Gods themselves don't frakking know or hate you so much they are lying to you. If I were arguing DM fiat here I would have said;

'This spell explicitly annoys the target, the more you cast it and the more you repeat yourself the more the probability of the target actively trying to get you killed by lying approaches one.'

But I ain't, I'm pointing out that 12% is not 1% and therefore the table is meaningless from the first moment you can cast the spell assuming you have an INT higher than 3.

You would save a great deal of ink, and therefore a finite number of Penguins, by just writing '1% chance of failure.'

Assigning random chance to determine whether a god knows something is, as I've said before, completely nonsensical.

But is unfortunately RAW. Unless you can come up with an adequate explanation why the Gods themselves become more knowledgeable between castings you're stuck with it.

But of course what you will do instead is slip 'DM fiat' in by the back door to resolve the situation in favour of the Wizard.

[Myth]

Okay lets even to odds a bit in favor of the attacking team. 3vs1.
The team of three is 1 Factotum lvl 20, 1 Psychic Warrior(prestige classes recommended) 1 Shadowcaster 3/Beguiler1/Noctumancer10/Mystic Theurge 6.
Tactics:
The Shadowcaster is for counterspelling, and if you can find a way to make it work with just a equivalent of the Command spell that affects intelligent constructs then find a way to get a large quantity of Adamantinehorrors under your control to cast Mage’s Disjunction.(Need method to reduce the wizard's will save or make it irrelevant)(Just get a method to have Mage's Disjunction cast often somehow). The wizard will likely teleport, but that is a few contingencies down, then shadowwalk to get to the wizard again, repeat till unable to follow.

The Factotum and the Psychic Warrior will need ranks in the Lucid Dream skill(The PsiWar will have to take them crossclass).
Factotum and PsiWar enter the Wizard's dreamscape while the wizard is rest to re-prepare lots spells.

The PsiWar there is to play the game of who goes firstest with things like Anticipatory strike and Synchronicity. The wizard can't teleport out of the dreamscape, his astral projection is irrelevant, the solar's he gated in are nowhere to help, and many contingencies have been blown for the day along with spell slots.

The Factotum now can use things like scrolls of shapechange and timestop, as well as extra actions for cunning surge to play on closer to equal ground with the Wizard. Still going to be a close fight. the Factotum if low on scrolls can just exit the Dreamscape and returning with all the used ones replaced and at full hp and ip. If succesful in reducing the wizard to negatives drag the body to the Dreamheart and finish him there.
While this is going on if the Shadowcaster/Beguiler is still alive he should be working on remove the clones and severing the cord to astral projection.


It isn't a perfect strategy, and it needs some work.

Sooo.... 3 Tier 2s is it? Then allow my Wizard to be Conjurer 3 / Master Conjurer 2 / Incantatrix 10 / Archmage 2 / Iot7V 3

Persisted Foresight, Persisted Shapechange, Persisted Absorption, Persisted Anticipate Teleporation, Greater, Persisted Ray Deflection, Persistent Supperior Resistance, via Metamagic Effect.

Your 3 boys come up. Foresight > Greater Celerity > Maximized Empowered Time Stop (one via Rod, the other via Instant Metamagic) 7 rounds to act:

Round 1: Gate in Celestial Gereat Wyrm Gold Dragon
Round 2: Gate in Celestial Gereat Wyrm Gold Dragon (use Pearl of Power to cast Gate again)
With persisted Foresight , Absorption and Shapechange that's 6 lvl 9 spells. If the Wizard has Int 18 + 6 from item + 5 from a tome = 29 Int so we ran out of lvl 9s.
Round 3 to 8: lay down metamagicked Cloudkills, Sleet Storms, Freezing Fog, Acid Fog etc. Incantatrix can make great use of metamagic and rods.
Round 9: Summon your phantom steed (although you should have that at all times but let's assume for some reason you don't) and fly away. When you get there, shapechange in something appropriate

Time Stop ends, the fight starts. You are now facing two CR 40 Gold Dragons and are in the middle of very very nasty AOE spells. The Wizard is 240 ft. away and Shapechanged in a Solar. He has line of sight and he has Abrupt Jaunt.

If you are still alive, expect a maximized, twin rayed, repeat spell Enevration to be cast with Chain Spell via Instant Metamagic. He will also have scrolls of Disjunction and Wish, just for the heck of it. Have fun.

Also, Elves don't need to sleep, as well as some other races. Even a Human can get to the point where he is no longer Human (an Outsider for example) and thus he doesn't sleep and you can't invade his dreams.

[crizh]

This was a nice summary, I've added some comment in-line because that was easier.

For you my friend, and for those of you just joining this fine, 15 page discussion:

1. Despite my original post, this thread has, for the most part, been about the killing of a theoretical level 20 Wizard.
2. As such the DM is not a valid way of reasoning out of broken spells.
3. It is assumed by the majority of this fine community that, a very intelligent level 20 Wizard will take the best advantage out of his spells and protect himself to the best of his ability.
4. The following effects are assumed based on point 3:
4.1. The Wizard's real body is sitting home at his private demiplane, created via Genesis.

With debatable time traits and limited access deliberately misinterpreted into no access. Rather than, say, using the rules....

4.2. The Wizard will usually be using Astral Projection. If the silver cord is serverd he has Clones waiting around, or contingent Ressurections etc. So this point is moot.
4.3 Assuming we can somehow get the Wizard to step out of his home in physical form, he has taken further precautions. Those are:
4.3.1. He has cast Foresight, either extended via rod, or persisted via the Incantatrix class ability. This means he is never flatfooted.

And almost certainly prevents him using Mind Blank.

4.3.2. He has memorized Celerity, or Greater Celerity (PHBII) which lets him act when imitative is rolled. Hence the Wizard always goes first.

Quietly ignoring Metamorphosis (Dire Turtle), Contingent Synchronicity and Sense Danger (MoE)

4.3.3. He will cast Contact Other Plane to be even better prepared. See the vast discussion about the spell's effectiveness above.

Ignoring the dubious mental gymnastics going on above in an attempt to end-run the percentages in the table CoP isn't as good as Metafaculty which will always produce better results.

4.3.4 He will be flying around, by virtue of his Phantom Steed, or will simply Teleport to his destination. This eliminates anyone walking up behind him as he is strolling trough the park. We are not talking about Gandalif and his walking stick here.
4.3.5. Whenever he has to rest out of the comfort of his Demiplane, he will not do so at an inn, or eat foot prepared by level 1 Commoners. He has a Magnificent Mansion at his disposal to cover for those needs. So stabbing him while he is sleeping is also quite hard to pull off.

Transdimensional Spell/Power

4.5.6. Even if you are somehow able to get to him, and past Foresight + Celerity, he has Contingency and Crafted Contingencies so he can safely get away from you.

Assuming you are covering your ears and going lalalalalala about Psions having a better version of Contingency.

Things that have been proposed, and are remotely viable are:

Using 10 levels of Silver Key to enter his Demiplane and MMM spell.
Using Black Dog to somehow poison him.
Going action Nova in round 0 and splattering him with physical attacks.

Those however, while overcoming some of the Wizard's advantages, can't really cope with everything he's got.

[crizh]

Your 3 boys come up. Foresight > Greater Celerity > Maximized Empowered Time Stop (one via Rod, the other via Instant Metamagic) 7 rounds to act:

I love how you go about pretending to make your case there with all that whizz-bangery.

Ooooh, look at the shiney....


Whilst completely ignoring

The PsiWar there is to play the game of who goes firstest with things like Anticipatory strike and Synchronicity

Good job.

I think I know a PR company that is hiring.

[Myth]

To both posts above i have to admit - I am not versed in Psionics at all. I'll leave the others to comment on that.

[crizh]

To be fair I wouldn't have gone with a PsiWar, some sort of Slayer build is probably better.

Sense Danger is the Power in Magic of Eberron that lets you manifest another Power as an immediate action even whilst flat-footed.

It comes down to who has the most Contingencies and how well are they worded. I'm pretty sure the Psion has the edge there. Temporal Acceleration and Synchronicity are both game breakers. When it comes right down to it you can use a Contingent Synchronicity to pop of Temporal Acceleration for 15xp where a crafted Contingent Celerity costs 1500gp and 37xp (I think, just guessing) so resource management gives the Psion an edge.

[Myth]

Damn i really have to make myself go and read on Psionics and Incarnum. Anyway, how do you deal with Abrupt Jaunt? It's an immediate action as well.

[crizh]

Isn't this a game of who can get Time Stop/Temporal Acceleration out first?

I don't see Abrupt Jaunt being an issue.

[Myth]

It is an issue because you can't really do anything in a timestop that hurts the other caster aprart from summoning or stacking AOE. Abrupt Jaunt helps the Conjurer get away from any immediate danger.

[dextercorvia]

This was a nice summary, I've added some comment in-line because that was easier.

Foresight isn't mind effecting, no need for the Wizard to not be Mind Blanked.

[crizh]

It is an issue because you can't really do anything in a timestop that hurts the other caster aprart from summoning or stacking AOE. Abrupt Jaunt helps the Conjurer get away from any immediate danger.

You pull a Bag of Holding full of Quintessence over his head.

If you are unfamiliar with Psionics I should explain that Quintessence is an Instantaneous Creation power that creates a substance that completely pulls from time objects/creatures completely immersed in it.

Once you are encased in it that's it, game over. Effectively the Wizard never really leaves the Psion's Temporal Acceleration.

Foresight isn't mind effecting, no need for the Wizard to not be Mind Blanked.

It is however a divination that affects the caster.

[Gametime]

It's still not 12% which is what the table says is the chance that the Gods themselves don't frakking know or hate you so much they are lying to you. If I were arguing DM fiat here I would have said;

But I ain't, I'm pointing out that 12% is not 1% and therefore the table is meaningless from the first moment you can cast the spell assuming you have an INT higher than 3.

Perhaps an analogy will help explain what I mean.

There are random treasure tables in the DMG. The exact percentages don't matter for this argument, but let's say you want to give the party some moderate pieces of loot. Let's also say that the chance of getting a given +1 longsword of arbitrary magical ability is 12%.

If a DM wants to roll on that table twice, because the party is to receive more than one piece of loot, the chance of getting that +1 longsword of arbitrary magical ability is a bit over 22%. This is significantly higher than 12%.

By your logic, this means that the original table is useless. This is not the case. Rather, the probabilities asserted in the original table inform and prescribe the probabilities derived from any given operation on the table. The chance of finding a piece of moderate loot that isn't a +1 longsword of arbitrary magical ability is 88%; the chance of finding two consecutive pieces of loot, of which neither is a +1 longsword of arbitrary magical ability, is significantly lower (about 78%). That's not invalidating the table; that's just math.

Similarly, asking the same question multiple times increases the chance that you will at some point have received a true answer. This isn't invalidating the table, nor does it change the probability of any given answer received being true. All it changes are the odds of the set of answers containing a true answer.

But is unfortunately RAW. Unless you can come up with an adequate explanation why the Gods themselves become more knowledgeable between castings you're stuck with it.

But of course what you will do instead is slip 'DM fiat' in by the back door to resolve the situation in favour of the Wizard.

I am aware that it is RAW. My point is that RAW is silly. Arguing that we can't ask the same question multiple times because it violates the table (and that would be silly) is a) false, and b) an argument from undesirable consequences. It is thus invalid. We can't just ignore the silly parts of RAW in a RAW discussion.

I would also ask you to not prescribe motivations to me. I have no interest in seeing wizards be significantly more powerful than other classes, and I certainly am not arguing as I am simply out of some perverse desire to see the rules twisted to suit myself. I am arguing in a way consistent with what I perceive to be true. I assume that you are doing the same. If you could extend me the courtesy of not assuming what I will do in my games, or why I will do it, I would be most grateful.

[BeholderSlayer]

I'd also like to point out that telling somebody they are getting off on a power fantasy just because they play the game the way they want to is unfair.

I would never try to insinuate that somebody is somehow selfish for playing the game the way they want to, I honestly can't think of an optimizer that would. For some reason non-optimizers like to hold such an attitude toward optimizers, though, as if they are morally wrong for liking a certain playstyle.

[Emmerask]

Since we are still in the "not going to happen in 99,9% of real campaigns" territory:
-be a tob class
-have iron heart surge
-find a way to be effected negatively by magic

Surge away any magic existing in the multiverse
after that start to beat down any level 20 commoner formerly known as wizard you find.

Well some of the wizards are now stuck in their little planes dieing of starvation or thirst but well who cares they can´t get out anyway. If they can get out they are still level 20 commoners waiting in line to be slaughtered

[The Shadowmind]

Sooo.... 3 Tier 2s is it? Then allow my Wizard to be Conjurer 3 / Master Conjurer 2 / Incantatrix 10 / Archmage 2 / Iot7V 3

It is three Tier 3s, Psion could be replace the PsiWar, but the PsiWar still works.s

Persisted Foresight, Persisted Shapechange, Persisted Absorption, Persisted Anticipate Teleporation, Greater, Persisted Ray Deflection, Persistent , via Metamagic Effect.

Disjunction(Shadowcaster-Adamintie Horrors), COP(Factotum), Who goes firtest battle(PsiWar), following the teleports(Shadowcaster), Counterspells(Shadowcaster)

Your 3 boys come up. Foresight > Greater Celerity > Maximized Empowered Time Stop (one via Rod, the other via Instant Metamagic) 7 rounds to act:.

Only the Shadowcaster/Beguiller is coming in the inintal attack, and should remain out of LOE, with his own Adamintie cone hat with a viewing window to use whatever technique he can to make the wizard waste resources.

Round 1: Gate in Celestial Gereat Wyrm Gold Dragon
Round 2: Gate in Celestial Gereat Wyrm Gold Dragon (use Pearl of Power to cast Gate again)
With persisted Foresight , Absorption and Shapechange that's 6 lvl 9 spells. If the Wizard has Int 18 + 6 from item + 5 from a tome = 29 Int so we ran out of lvl 9s.
Round 3 to 8: lay down metamagicked Cloudkills, Sleet Storms, Freezing Fog, Acid Fog etc. Incantatrix can make great use of metamagic and rods.
Round 9: Summon your phantom steed (although you should have that at all times but let's assume for some reason you don't) and fly away. When you get there, shapechange in something appropriate

Time Stop ends, the fight starts. You are now facing two CR 40 Gold Dragons and are in the middle of very very nasty AOE spells. The Wizard is 240 ft. away and Shapechanged in a Solar. He has line of sight and he has Abrupt Jaunt.

If you are still alive, expect a maximized, twin rayed, repeat spell Enevration to be cast with Chain Spell via Instant Metamagic. He will also have scrolls of Disjunction and Wish, just for the heck of it. Have fun.

Also, Elves don't need to sleep, as well as some other races. Even a Human can get to the point where he is no longer Human (an Outsider for example) and thus he doesn't sleep and you can't invade his dreams.

The lack of sleep maybe a problem. I need to check the region of dreams if it requires the person to actually be asleep to enter the dreamscape.

[dextercorvia]

It is however a divination that affects the caster.

That is not what Mind Blank protects against. Foresight gives the caster information, it is not gathering information on the caster.

Or does Mind Blank 'protect' against True Strike?

[crizh]

Perhaps an analogy will help explain what I mean.

There are random treasure tables in the DMG. The exact percentages don't matter for this argument, but let's say you want to give the party some moderate pieces of loot. Let's also say that the chance of getting a given +1 longsword of arbitrary magical ability is 12%.

If a DM wants to roll on that table twice, because the party is to receive more than one piece of loot, the chance of getting that +1 longsword of arbitrary magical ability is a bit over 22%. This is significantly higher than 12%.

By your logic, this means that the original table is useless. This is not the case.

Yes, yes it is.

Your analogy is false. You do not roll an arbitrary number of times on the treasure tables to get the result you want. You just choose what you want the players to get. Because rolling until you get the item you want to 'plot-device' into the game is pointless. It makes the table meaningless for it's intended purpose.

I am aware that it is RAW. My point is that RAW is silly. Arguing that we can't ask the same question multiple times because it violates the table (and that would be silly) is a)

Not the argument I was making.

You were arguing that the RAW was silly because the table determined whether the Gods knew something or not based on a dice roll.

Nice deflection though. I like how each subsequent Quote not inheriting the previous one enables you to pretend like you are arguing my point whilst instead saying lalalalalala, no ravenous bugblater beasts here!!

So in yet another post you have failed to address the substantive issue of the Gods mysteriously becoming more informed with each time you repeat the question.

You have already managed to say that in some cases we don't need to rely on DM fiat but can adjudicate based on good ol'fashioned common sense.

I suggest you give it a try.

[crizh]

That is not what Mind Blank protects against. Foresight gives the caster information, it is not gathering information on the caster.

Or does Mind Blank 'protect' against True Strike?

This spell grants you a powerful sixth sense in relation to yourself

Sure sounds like a Divination that provides information about the caster.

This was debated extensively in the BG thread by luminaries like PhaedrusXY. He may be a Wizard apologist and I don't agree with most of his opinions but when he concludes that yes Mind Blank probably does block Foresight I'm inclined to view that as fairly definitive. Those guys have forgotten more about Wizard TO than I will ever care to know.

I've not made it all the way through but this did catch my attention.

So I think arguably we could say that it would be likely that a typical high level moderately optimized psion could quite possibly find and destroy the typical high level moderately optimized wizard, because the psion is a lot more likely to be using Metafaculty than the wizard is to be using complicated Contact Other Plane shenanigans. The psion is also very likely to have access to Psychic Reformation, so he can customize his powers known and feats to take advantage of any vulnerabilities that Metafaculty reveals. Of course, this costs quite a bit of XP, but the payoff is worth it.

Although I'm starting to suspect that all this proves is that the Psion is really tier 1...

[Radar]

Although I'm starting to suspect that all this proves is that the Psion is really tier 1...

Tier 2 characters are only behind Tier 1 in terms of versatility not power, but a Psion abusing Psychic Reformation? Probably Tier 1.

Apart from that, I would agree on a psion winning an encounter against a wizard due to ability of breaking action economy like a twig. The advantage the wizard has on the other hand is the ability to gather powerful minions through Planar Binding and Gate shenanigans.

As for the unfortunate Contact Other Plane: the argument is not, that deities become more knowledgable with each iteration. As a general assumption each deity is a separate being and thus one of them might know different things then the other, so if the target of the question is not actively and successfuly hiding from all deities, then it's fully reasonable to ask more then one deity and gain more information. I'm not going to be adamant about that, just explaining my point of view.

One more thing: where is this whole dreamscape thing described? I've never heard of it and the ease of offing someone through their dreams worries me somewhat.

Yet another thing: there is a specific material (can't remamber the name), that can trap the soul of the person slain by such a weapon. How would it react with the Astral Projection? Severing the cord with a Silver Sword kills the caster, so it might be a reasonable assumption, that the Astral Projection carries the casters soul.

[crizh]

Thinaun Complete Warrior p136

I've been careful to use the plural. I honestly don't give a crap about Dieties and their stat's and don't propose to start polluting my mind with that sort of cheese now.

However, I imagine that something with the 'Greater Deity' Divine Rank (whatever that is) knows most anything they want to know. I would imagine that in almost all Pantheons most Deities know most everything about the mortal planes and if any of them know more than the others it is because that is their shtick. Boccob for example has an excuse for knowing more than the others. Or Vecna.

Most of this stupid TO stuff goes to one of these Deities first anyway. If Boccob or Vecna don't know (or ain't tellin') I'm pretty sure you're screwed.

[The Shadowmind]

The Region of Dreams is either from Planar Handbook or Manual of the Planes. I don't remember which.

Edit revisited tactic:Have the adamantie cone hat be invisible, and forgo see invisibility on the S/B. This make the cone see through to you, but not see-through to the likely permanent true seeing the wizard has, and have Invisibility, Greater case on the S/B. Have the S/B take leader ship to get a 18th level cohort, a Spell thief 18. The spellthief then takes a prepared COP from the factotum with steal SLA, and uses it, the COP from the Factotum get returned then the spellthief repeats until all questions needed are answered, the Factotum decides which questions to be asked(Highest INT). If failed the spellthief is the one who suffer's the INT/CHA reduction. Repeat with any 6th of lower spell the Factotum can prepare that would be useful to abuse in this manner).

[Baron Corm]

I believe I've already answered most of your questions, Myth, but I will repeat them in a list manner which is easier to see.

1. Despite my original post, this thread has, for the most part, been about the killing of a theoretical level 20 Wizard.
2. As such the DM is not a valid way of reasoning out of broken spells.
3. It is assumed by the majority of this fine community that, a very intelligent level 20 Wizard will take the best advantage out of his spells and protect himself to the best of his ability.

With no DM, and EVERYTHING allowed, your build is beaten by a level 1 psion (Pun-Pun) or Iron Heart Surge (as mentioned by Emmerask). Done.

If you wish to operate with a DM who allows just enough broken things for the wizard to be at the height of his power, that is something completely different. We'll go with that from this point forward.

4.1. The Wizard's real body is sitting home at his private demiplane, created via Genesis.
4.2. The Wizard will usually be using Astral Projection. If the silver cord is serverd he has Clones waiting around, or contingent Ressurections etc. So this point is moot.

Alright, I don't know what silver key is to be honest, but we'll take that to get into his demiplane.

4.3.1. He has cast Foresight, either extended via rod, or persisted via the Incantatrix class ability. This means he is never flatfooted.
4.3.2. He has memorized Celerity, or Greater Celerity (PHBII) which lets him act when imitative is rolled. Hence the Wizard always goes first.
4.3.3. He will cast Contact Other Plane to be even better prepared. See the vast discussion about the spell's effectiveness above.

Spymaster 7 is immune to divinations, including foresight and contact other plane. He can thus render you flatfooted by Hiding, in Plain Sight if you require it. This can be gained with an item from Tome of Magic so, if required, doesn't even have to fit into the build.

4.3.4 He will be flying around, by virtue of his Phantom Steed, or will simply Teleport to his destination. This eliminates anyone walking up behind him as he is strolling trough the park. We are not talking about Gandalif and his walking stick here.

Not really an issue with level 20 WBL. Get some Wings of Flying. You won't be able to teleport before I kill you in one round.

4.3.5. Whenever he has to rest out of the comfort of his Demiplane, he will not do so at an inn, or eat foot prepared by level 1 Commoners. He has a Magnificent Mansion at his disposal to cover for those needs. So stabbing him while he is sleeping is also quite hard to pull off.

I'll look to silver key again for this.

4.5.6. Even if you are somehow able to get to him, and past Foresight + Celerity, he has Contingency and Crafted Contingencies so he can safely get away from you.

A scroll of disjunction will remove all contingencies with no save. A rogue build has plenty of UMD.

Before I leave it at this, and I don't think I'll be making any more posts in this thread, let me just say that even with all of these things countered, I am positive that you could find some other way to make your wizard invincible. This is because you are assuming a DM who is allowing just enough things for the wizard to be invincible. A player can never beat a DM.

[Gametime]

Yes, yes it is.

Your analogy is false. You do not roll an arbitrary number of times on the treasure tables to get the result you want. You just choose what you want the players to get. Because rolling until you get the item you want to 'plot-device' into the game is pointless. It makes the table meaningless for it's intended purpose.

I don't mean for this to sound insulting, but it's probably going to, and I apologize in advance for that.

I'm not sure you understand the math behind this.

You don't roll on the table an arbitrary number of times to get the magic item you want, in all likelihood. However, if you are rolling on the table more than one time, the chances of getting a specific magical item in at least one of those rolls will be significantly higher than the probability listed in the table. However, each individual roll will yield the same probability of getting a given magical item.

If there is a 50% chance to get a magic kitten, and I roll once, there is a 50% chance I will get that kitten. If I roll twice, there is a 50% chance that the second roll will yield a kitten. There is a 75% chance that either roll will have yielded a kitten, and thus, taken holistically, my chance of getting a kitten is 75%. This is not the probability indicated by the table. However, the table is not meaningless; this is the simple result of combining probabilities in a sequence.

Not the argument I was making.

You were arguing that the RAW was silly because the table determined whether the Gods knew something or not based on a dice roll.

Nice deflection though. I like how each subsequent Quote not inheriting the previous one enables you to pretend like you are arguing my point whilst instead saying lalalalalala, no ravenous bugblater beasts here!!

So in yet another post you have failed to address the substantive issue of the Gods mysteriously becoming more informed with each time you repeat the question.

You have already managed to say that in some cases we don't need to rely on DM fiat but can adjudicate based on good ol'fashioned common sense.

I suggest you give it a try.

Before addressing your argument, I'd like to say two things.

First, I did not read the entirety of the post you had quoted, and so I may have forgotten what I specifically said. I was in a bit of a rush when I typed up my response, and couldn't remember exactly what we had been talking about. I tried to infer it from the content of your post, but it may be the case that I got it wrong and apparently switched positions in the middle of a discussion. If that is the case, I apologize. It was not my intention.

Second, please stop acting as though I am deliberately trying to deceive you. I am not. I am not trying to twist the rules to my advantage, I am not trying to employ obfuscating debating tactics, and I am not trying to "win" this discussion. I'm just arguing for what I perceive as the truth.

On to the argument.

The gods do not become more informed each time you ask the same question. The actual result is even more bizarre, if anything, since their subsequent answers to the question have no relation to their previous answers, but they emphatically are not more informed.

There is an 88% chance that a god knows the answer to a given question and will answer that question truthfully. The first time I ask, there is an 88% chance that the god will know, etc. The second time I ask, there is an 88% chance that the god will know. The third time I ask, there is an 88% chance that the god will know, and so on and so on.

If I ask three times, there is roughly a 99.9% chance that at any given point I have received a true answer, but the god still only had an 88% chance of knowing and giving the true answer for any given iteration of the question. At no point did the god become more knowledgeable. (There is a not-insignificant chance that the god knew, and then didn't know, and then knew again, which is still freakin' bizarre. But the god never becomes more knowledgeable.)

Hopefully, I've made myself clear.

[BeholderSlayer]

Silver Key can only grant access to a demi-plane if there are portals that access it. No portal, no Master of Doors access. Since "a wizard did it," there is no portal and thus no access by Silver Key.

[Jayabalard]

If there is a 50% chance to get a magic kitten, and I roll once, there is a 50% chance I will get that kitten. If I roll twice, there is a 50% chance that the second roll will yield a kitten. There is a 75% chance that either or both roll will have yielded a kitten, and thus, taken holistically, my chance of getting a kitten is 75%. This is not the probability indicated by the table. However, the table is not meaningless; this is the simple result of combining probabilities in a sequence.

You're not really explaining much (you're just saying, "this is the way that it is"),and if he lacks the math, he might benefit from a slightly more detailed explanation. Stats was a long time ago for me, but here's a quick rundown on how it works (as I recall)

In your particular example, you have a 50% chance to get a "magic kitten" each time. You have 4, equally possible results:

1. the first roll is not a magic kitten, and the second roll is also not a magic kitten
2. the first roll is a magic kitten, and the second roll is not a magic kitten
3. the first roll is not a magic kitten, and the second roll is a magic kitten
4. the first roll is a magic kitten, and the second roll is also a magic kitten

so 3/4 (or 75%) of the time you will wind up with at least one magic kitten.

When you're looking for "at least one occurrence" out of a sequence of probabilities, the general formula is: the probability of success the first time + (the probability of failure the first time * the probability of success the second time) + (the probability of failure the first time * the probability of failure the second time * the probability of success the third time ) + ...

So with a 50% success rate, you'd get

• two tries: .5 + .5 * .5 = .75 (75%)
• three tries: .5 + .5 * .5 + .5 * .5 * .5 = .875 (87.5%)
• four tries: .5 + .5 * .5 + .5 * .5 * .5 + .5 * .5 * .5 * .5 = .9375 (93.75%)
• etc

So with a 12% success rate (from that earlier example), you'd get

• two tries: .12 + .88 * .12 = .2256 (22.56%)
• three tries: .12 + .88 * .12 + .88 * .88 * .12 = .318528 (31.8528%)
• etc