Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

[Kyrthain]

First off, you've imposed a 20% miss chance on yourself from the blinking.
Second, Celerity says you aren't going first.
Third, even if the wizard doesn't just wall of force you, or forcecage, or himself go invisible (Denying you sneak attack), he'll probably trigger one of his contingent get-me-out-of-here teleports.

[Killer Angel]

if the wizard has a way to stop your sneaking, take a scroll of spiritual weapon, it flanks!

This won't work for various reasons.

The weapon always strikes from your direction. It does not get a flanking bonus or help a combatant get one

Not only it doesn't count for flank but, even if it does, it would strike from your direction.

And seriously, you waste a standard action to cast spiritual weapon Vs a high level caster?

[137beth]

If it's that important to your strategy, Foresight can be had as an eighth level spell from the Time domain. Also, Rod of Extend (greater) makes a difference. Whatever you do to maintain your buffs, a truly paranoid diviner type hides out when they aren't active. There is no waiting until afterwords. Your best chance there is a Dispel effect that he didn't think to cover with a contingency, such as one of the Warlock SLA's.

So I'll just use something that confuses divination:|
And now you've used up a huge number of spell slots on divination, before the fight even begins:|

I fully expect that any single strategy could be overcome with the correct combination. The catch is that a wizard can't just randomly switch builds in the middle of play. And you can't adjust which spells you prepared in the middle of the day either. If you can come up with a SINGLE build with a list of prepared spells that can overcome every single combination in this thread with 100% success rate, I will be quite impressed. If your plan involves "cast a divination spell to determine which strategy I'm going to use", you also have to come up with an explanation for why I can't confuse your divination. Write up a complete wizard build that is capable of beating every single one of these strategies (NOT a separate wizard build for each rogue/fighter strategy), then come back.

[Raendyn]

First off, you've imposed a 20% miss chance on yourself from the blinking.
Second, Celerity says you aren't going first.
Third, even if the wizard doesn't just wall of force you, or forcecage, or himself go invisible (Denying you sneak attack), he'll probably trigger one of his contingent get-me-out-of-here teleports.

I have done this indeed.And indeed he has celerity,but wall of farce me? jaunt jaunt jaunt.
mind controll or death effect me ( unless i dont have wards for those) i jaunt & he loose line of sight.OR i delay the effect & that after i rolled twice my save!
Also, i go for assasination mission & i dont have true seeing glasses?

teleport away? someone already mentioned it. i won the encounter if he does. if he teleport just 2 rounds away dinstance. then repeat...

even if he has enough contigencies until i have no more domain powers/jaunt i believe i've done better job than most. also how many contigencies?
Why don't i have some?i almost don't have items!i can pay wizards to cast contigent spells!!!

[dextercorvia]

So I'll just use something that confuses divination:|
And now you've used up a huge number of spell slots on divination, before the fight even begins:|

I fully expect that any single strategy could be overcome with the correct combination. The catch is that a wizard can't just randomly switch builds in the middle of play. And you can't adjust which spells you prepared in the middle of the day either. If you can come up with a SINGLE build with a list of prepared spells that can overcome every single combination in this thread with 100% success rate, I will be quite impressed. If your plan involves "cast a divination spell to determine which strategy I'm going to use", you also have to come up with an explanation for why I can't confuse your divination. Write up a complete wizard build that is capable of beating every single one of these strategies (NOT a separate wizard build for each rogue/fighter strategy), then come back.

Nothing "confuses" Foresight. Foresight+Celerity says Wizard ALWAYS goes first, and if he doesn't feel prepared for the fight at that time -- BAMF! That foils every strategy to Kill the wizard I have seen so far, It uses an 9th(or 8th as previously mentioned), 4th and 5th(7th) level slot.

Not having the Wizard use spell slots to save his life is sillier than the Fighter not drinking a Healing Potion when he is almost out of HP.

<snip>
teleport away? someone already mentioned it. i won the encounter if he does. if he teleport just 2 rounds away dinstance. then repeat...
<snip>
also how many contigencies?
Why don't i have some?i almost don't have items!i can pay wizards to cast contigent spells!!!

Check the title. You have to kill him to win. Also <nitpick>Contingency is a personal spell -- you'd have to pay for a crafted Contingency. </nitpick>

[ZeroNumerous]

Best way to kill a Tier 1 Caster without being one?

Be a psion.

Time travel to when he was level 1(or a baby, whenever he's not invincible is acceptable) and kill him.

I think this was mentioned as early as page one.

[jseah]

Write up a complete wizard build that is capable of beating every single one of these strategies (NOT a separate wizard build for each rogue/fighter strategy), then come back.

Something with Uncanny Forethought. That'll work nicely.

FYI, it allows you to convert any unprepared slot into a spell you have the spell mastery feat for. Int times per day.
You can also cast it as a spell you don't have spell mastery for as a full round instead of standard.

Goodbye unpreparedness.


Also, a wizard / Iot7V is ridiculously hard to kill. Prismatic wall as immediate action? (it's only one colour, but one is usually enough) Sounds like a big "no" button to me.
It also doesn't rule out Incantatrix... which can be an Abjurer for Abrupt Jaunt...

EDIT: Note that the veil that blocks magic blocks AMFs. XD
And that Prismatic Walls are immune to AMF. Thus veils work in one.
Who needs a tinfoil hat now? >.>

EDIT2:
You also mentioned a need for a character build.
Well, I posted a link to a BG thread. That thread's OP is one of a series of just such discussion and it has a link to a potential wizard build.
Comes in CO to TO flavours as well.

EDIT3:
Here's the link again.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=3821.0

[Person_Man]

But what does any of those do against a caster? I mean, casters feast on anyone trying to deal pure damage (even if they don't bother becoming immune to damage; even simple contingencies tend to pre-empt those, as well as Foresight+immediate actions) and Spellthief gets abilities that are still inferior to what you could have if you just cast real spells yourself.

Well, it depends on what level you're playing at, and how much time the caster has spent on pre-buff. If you're playing against a high level full caster who has Foresight and Greater Celerity, then I fully concede that there is very little that a Spellthief or anyone else could do to defeat him short of using similarly abusive spells.

But presumably the DM doesn't sit down and think of ways to auto-win combat before Initiative is rolled. Instead, I would argue that most DMs do their best to come up with interesting challenges. If the DM chooses to use full casters against the party, then a Spellthief is well armed to fight against them. He can steal spells, steal currently running spell effects, steal energy resistance, steal spell like abilities, absorb spells that target him, etc. While the Spellthief is nothing special against mooks and monsters, he is custom built to defeat magic using BBEG (who the DM will likely give a ton of hit points and other defenses). Again, I fully stipulate that he's not nearly as powerful as Tier 1 or 2 classes. He's just good at taking down certain Tier 1 enemies some of the time.

On the flip side, if a player chooses to play a Tier 1 caster, the DM can challenge him by giving the occasional enemy levels of Spellthief. If the player insists on using abusive spells, then the DM can just add more class levels to his monsters until things balance out.

And Incarnate's maximum spell resistance is still relatively easily pierced though it does force casters to rely on something like Assay Resistance or True Casting. Not to mention Incarnates' offense isn't very scary vs. a caster.

Yes, if your DM specifically decides to bypass your Spell Resistance, he can do so. DM is god. He can do anything.

But in most situations, the Spellward Shirt provides you with 50%ish magic resistance for a minimal investment, which is pretty darn handy in my book. It can be optimized up to Level + 20ish with a couple of feats and magic items, which is enough to defeat most (though certainly not all) non-epic magic.

I concede that the Incarnate is not an offensive class. But he has has a metric ton of defense, Skills, and a few good battlefield control and Save or Lose effects. He excels at outlasting the enemy and absorbing his effects, and giving his friends a much better opportunity to defeat them.


Remember, D&D is a game played by people, not computers. If it was just about crunching numbers, everyone would only play Tier 1 classes all of the time, and the game would be over as soon as someone achieved godhood (I think the record is level 2? I haven't read Pun-Pun in a while). But it's not just about numbers. It's about having lots of interesting options to play with. I'm certainly not advocating for the Monk or anything so silly. I find nothing interesting or fun about totally sucking. I'm just saying that there's plenty of room in the Tier 3-4 range that can keep up with Tier 1-2 builds, even though they're demonstrably not as powerful.

[ArcanistSupreme]

teleport away? someone already mentioned it. i won the encounter if he does. if he teleport just 2 rounds away dinstance. then repeat...

Or he casts time stop and starts gating in solars (what caster with access to these spells wouldn't prepare them on a regular basis or at least have scrolls of these readily available?). Shapechange is another fun "I win" button. And even if he didn't feel like preparing spells that morning and left all of his scrolls at home and you manage to whack him, what stops his clone from coming back and kicking your butt?

Is this fair? No. Is it intelligent game design to allow some characters to do this? Also no. I think this thread is more of a show of how stupidly powerful Tier One casters are than anything else. Any DM throwing a wizard like this at a party is a jerk, plain and simple. If the only way to kill him is to use time travel (ridiculous paradoxes aside), this is not an appropriate challenge for any party without their own top-tier (or second tier) casters.

Any player who plays a character like this is playing the game on easy mode. There's nothing wrong with that, as it can be a lot of fun, but it's also important to call it what it is.[/rant]

[JonestheSpy]

Or he casts time stop and starts gating in solars (what caster with access to these spells wouldn't prepare them on a regular basis or at least have scrolls of these readily available?).

Casters who remember that Gate costs you 1000xp a pop, perchance?

[crizh]

After a little thought I'm pretty sure that if your job was to assassinate high level Wizards a Psion 12 ought to be able to do the trick.

A level of Thrallherd wouldn't hurt but isn't necessary. You'll need Metamorphosis, Quintessence, Synchronicity, Contingency and Temporal Acceleration. Depending on your build you'll need at least one Expanded Knowledge feat to have all of those.

Set up a series of Contingencies triggered by your targets actions. Casting one of the Celerity Series, triggering a Contingency spell, triggering a crafted Contingent Spell, using any [teleport], etc, etc.

Triggered Power is Synchronicity. Gives you a standard action that triggers immediately interrupting whatever the Wizard has tried to do. It's not unreasonable for a DM to houserule simultaneous triggered actions to go in DEX sequence. If that is the case a Psion Metamorphed into a Will'o'Wisp will always win.

As you are getting a Standard action out of sequence you may also use a Swift action. Manifest Temporal Acceleration. Cover Wizard in Quintessence.

Job done.

That might need some tweaking but I'm pretty sure it's air-tight.

[137beth]

Nothing "confuses" Foresight. Foresight+Celerity says Wizard ALWAYS goes first, and if he doesn't feel prepared for the fight at that time -- BAMF! That foils every strategy to Kill the wizard I have seen so far, It uses an 9th(or 8th as previously mentioned), 4th and 5th(7th) level slot.

Not having the Wizard use spell slots to save his life is sillier than the Fighter not drinking a Healing Potion when he is almost out of HP.

First off, a WIZARD would need a 9th level spell slot. A 20th level wizard can cast 4 9th level spells per day. Add in an intelligence score of ~23, which does not give bonus 9th level spells. At 20th CL, foresight lasts for 200 minutes, for a total of 800 minutes=13 hours and 20 minutes. The obvious way past this defense is to wait until the wizard runs out of foresight. Once the rogue attacks, the wizard will not be protected by foresight AND will have used up all his 9th level spells. Unless you can find a way for foresight to last 24 hours a day, there's a huge gaping hole in your defense.

EDIT: you are also assuming that the wizard in question uses divination. In fact, the thread is "Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one", NOT "Best ways to kill all Tier 1 caster without being one". Now, it would be a pointless comparison if we did not specify that that you are near the same level as them. If you do somehow create a wizard build/prepared spells combination that can defeat every possible rogue attack 100% of the time (and that includes during the time when you are not protected by foresight), that would be impressive, but then I probably would attack another wizard. Preferably one that doesn't use divination.

[Sewercop]

So I'll just use something that confuses divination:|
And now you've used up a huge number of spell slots on divination, before the fight even begins:|

I fully expect that any single strategy could be overcome with the correct combination. The catch is that a wizard can't just randomly switch builds in the middle of play. And you can't adjust which spells you prepared in the middle of the day either. If you can come up with a SINGLE build with a list of prepared spells that can overcome every single combination in this thread with 100% success rate, I will be quite impressed. If your plan involves "cast a divination spell to determine which strategy I'm going to use", you also have to come up with an explanation for why I can't confuse your divination. Write up a complete wizard build that is capable of beating every single one of these strategies (NOT a separate wizard build for each rogue/fighter strategy), then come back.

If you read this you will see why http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=3821.0

A lot of reading, but its explained in depth. Short story are a god of divine rank 6 or higher. They are not even sure if a wizard can take down a "turtled" wizard.
They agreed on that a most wizards in games people play can be taken out by melee classes, but they also came to the conclusion that a paranoid genious wizard by raw are basicly impossible to kill for a non spell user. Or a spell user for that matter.

Some of the melee builds were wicked good mage slayers. But taking down a paranoid wizard? no way by raw... The more you try... The worse it gets.

[BeholderSlayer]

A real tier one caster cannot be permanently killed, even by other tier 1 spellcasters.

By proxy, this means that anything below tier 1 cannot kill him/her, either.

Why?

Because you never actually fight the real caster. You fight an astrally projected copy while the original stays in his personal demiplane which he has sealed off entrance to all other beings, not even deities can enter.

DM rulings and fiat should never be used as evidence in this type of discussion. Once you've resorted to DM fiat, you have already lost the argument.

[crizh]

Because you never actually fight the real caster. You fight an astrally projected copy while the original stays in his personal demiplane which he has sealed off entrance to all other beings, not even deities can enter.

Again I'd say Psion. Metafaculty to locate him, Plane Shift etc, etc.

Not sure how you plan on sealing a plane against Deities without using Epic Magic but I'm pretty sure it's going to involve dubious Genesis abuse.

[BeholderSlayer]

Again I'd say Psion. Metafaculty to locate him, Plane Shift etc, etc.

Not sure how you plan on sealing a plane against Deities without using Epic Magic but I'm pretty sure it's going to involve dubious Genesis abuse.

Of course genesis abuse. No, the psion can't enter, either.

[Radar]

Casters who remember that Gate costs you 1000xp a pop, perchance?

Summon Monster IX has quite a variety of good options as well. Grapple at over +30, loads of monsters with additional detection methods or with potent spell-like abilities.

[crizh]

Like I said dubious. If you can't support it then it isn't a valid argument.

Like the flowing time nonsense folks spout all the time. The DMG is quite clear that the Great Wheel Cosmology does not have any planes with flowing time but people argue it as if it is perfectly reasonable all the time.

Without explicit text in Genesis that permits you to bar entrance you can't. Just because a plane can be locked doesn't mean Genesis can create such planes. Just the text ma'am. Genesis can alter

the environment within the demiplane

not how the plane interacts with other planes or how others may or may not travel to it.

[BeholderSlayer]

Like I said dubious. If you can't support it then it isn't a valid argument.

Like the flowing time nonsense folks spout all the time. The DMG is quite clear that the Great Wheel Cosmology does not have any planes with flowing time but people argue it as if it is perfectly reasonable all the time.

Without explicit text in Genesis that permits you to bar entrance you can't. Just because a plane can be locked doesn't mean Genesis can create such planes. Just the text ma'am. Genesis can alter not how the plane interacts with other planes or how others may or may not travel to it.

Most people assume that unless the spell says you CAN'T do something, then you can, not the other way around.

The psionic version, IIRC, states you cannot manipulate the time trait, thus you CAN do it with the arcane version.

The caster may decide that the environment within the demiplane denies access to all beings except the spellcaster. Thus, it's not the interaction with other planes that refuses entry, it's the nature of the plane itself. If a plane may be locked, then a demiplane can as well. It doesn't need to say that you can do it, but it does have to say that you can't. What it does say is that the plane's environment can be:
"reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize."

Both of these concepts are easy to visualize, thus they can be built into the plane.

[Gametime]

As you are getting a Standard action out of sequence you may also use a Swift action. Manifest Temporal Acceleration. Cover Wizard in Quintessence.

I might be wrong, but as I recall the restriction on swift actions is that they may only be used on your turn and only once per round. Just because you are acting doesn't make it your turn.

[JonestheSpy]

Most people assume that unless the spell says you CAN'T do something, then you can, not the other way around.

Hmm, I'll remember that next time I cast Fireball and need to explain to the DM how the spell also healed my wounds, recharged my wands, and washed my socks.

[ArcanistSupreme]

First off, a WIZARD would need a 9th level spell slot. A 20th level wizard can cast 4 9th level spells per day. Add in an intelligence score of ~23, which does not give bonus 9th level spells. At 20th CL, foresight lasts for 200 minutes, for a total of 800 minutes=13 hours and 20 minutes. The obvious way past this defense is to wait until the wizard runs out of foresight. Once the rogue attacks, the wizard will not be protected by foresight AND will have used up all his 9th level spells. Unless you can find a way for foresight to last 24 hours a day, there's a huge gaping hole in your defense.

First of all, ~23?! Assuming we are starting with an elite array (which is low), we have 15+5 from levels+6 from an item+at least 2 from inherent bonuses=28, which nets us a bonus spell. One more doesn't seem like much, but 9th level spells are ridiculous. Plus, the wizard will not be hanging out in the open all day. He will spend one spell slot on foresight (rods of extend are wonderful) and get 400 minutes, which is plenty of time to complete his errand before he pops back off to his demiplane. Anyone that messes with him has 4 ninth level spells to deal with (and eighth level spells are nothing to sneeze at).

Second, how are you going to a)be within range of the wizard for all 6+hours and b)know when foresight wears off? Unless you have a boatload of scrolls of greater arcane sight and can somehow stay within 120 ft for 6+hours without being detected, this plan will need a bit of work.

[137beth]

First of all, ~23?! Assuming we are starting with an elite array (which is low), we have 15+5 from levels+6 from an item+at least 2 from inherent bonuses=28, which nets us a bonus spell. One more doesn't seem like much, but 9th level spells are ridiculous. Plus, the wizard will not be hanging out in the open all day. He will spend one spell slot on foresight (rods of extend are wonderful) and get 400 minutes, which is plenty of time to complete his errand before he pops back off to his demiplane. Anyone that messes with him has 4 ninth level spells to deal with (and eighth level spells are nothing to sneeze at).

Second, how are you going to a)be within range of the wizard for all 6+hours and b)know when foresight wears off? Unless you have a boatload of scrolls of greater arcane sight and can somehow stay within 120 ft for 6+hours without being detected, this plan will need a bit of work.

1.In my games, ability bonuses gained from items and spells are not counted towards bonus spells. I can see how you could interpret the rules differently (and my version is in fact partially to reduce the power of spellcasting classes), so let's assume you do, in fact, have 28 int. That's still not enough to keep foresight up 24/7

2.I am assuming that a rogue using UMD could cast divination spells from a magic item to determine when foresight wears off. Or, for that matter, a sorcerer could cast it (and more times per day than the wizard). as for staying in range--I wouldn't have to, just teleport in after it DOES wear off.

ROD OF EXTEND: I was proposing a strategy that would bypass any wizard techniques previously mentioned on this thread. No one had said anything about magic items like rod of extension, they had just said "foresight, and you can't sneak attack". But WITH rod of extension, you would be able to keep foresight active 24 hours per day (assuming you don't run out of rods, which is unlikely for a 20th level wizard). This means that you (but NOT ess that ends this part of the discussion (specifically, the high level wizard vs. high level rouge). I'm not convinced you couldn't research a spell that messes with divination (even foresight) and have someone put it in a magic item...but it would probably be very expensive if it is high enough to block the 9th level spells of a 20th level wizard. Too high, perhaps, for a 20th level rogue to afford. A sorcerer might be able to do it, but that is a tier above rogue. A rogue could, however, kill a wizard who does not use very much divination (or even one who has barred divination, using The Giant's rule variant). After all, not EVERY high level wizard designs their entire character around defending against rogues

Now, if we assume that the wizard has sacrificed everything else to be optimal for defending against 1 on 1 assassinations, then the only CORE class capable of winning (aside from another wizard) would be a sorcerer.

[Gametime]

Now, if we assume that the wizard has sacrificed everything else a single magic item and two spell slots to be optimal for defending against 1 on 1 assassinations, then the only CORE class capable of winning (aside from another wizard) would be a sorcerer.

Fixed that for you.

Rods of Extend were definitely brought up earlier in the thread. At least, I'm almost certain I mentioned one earlier, although it was in the context of a different buff than Foresight. Regardless, any wizard with cash to spare should get a Rod of Extend, and level 20 characters definitely have cash to spare.

[Kirgoth]

Poisoned Bat poo

[dextercorvia]

First off, a WIZARD would need a 9th level spell slot. A 20th level wizard can cast 4 9th level spells per day. Add in an intelligence score of ~23, which does not give bonus 9th level spells. At 20th CL, foresight lasts for 200 minutes, for a total of 800 minutes=13 hours and 20 minutes. The obvious way past this defense is to wait until the wizard runs out of foresight. Once the rogue attacks, the wizard will not be protected by foresight AND will have used up all his 9th level spells. Unless you can find a way for foresight to last 24 hours a day, there's a huge gaping hole in your defense.

EDIT: you are also assuming that the wizard in question uses divination. In fact, the thread is "Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one", NOT "Best ways to kill all Tier 1 caster without being one". Now, it would be a pointless comparison if we did not specify that that you are near the same level as them. If you do somehow create a wizard build/prepared spells combination that can defeat every possible rogue attack 100% of the time (and that includes during the time when you are not protected by foresight), that would be impressive, but then I probably would attack another wizard. Preferably one that doesn't use divination.

Foresight is available to Wizards as an 8th level spell for the cost of a feat. Not optimal, but available. A Cloistered Cleric/Contemplative can have the Time, Travel and Spell domains giving him access to the same combo (through Greater Anyspell).

The rest of your argument seems to say that the best way to kill a Tier 1 class without using one is to find the guy who gimped himself the most. I was asked for a build that could defend against any of the strategies outlined here to kill a T1. Either of these T1 stubs can survive any threat below the level of epic magic, by A) Going First and B) Getting the Heck Out!

ROD OF EXTEND: I was proposing a strategy that would bypass any wizard techniques previously mentioned on this thread. No one had said anything about magic items like rod of extension, they had just said "foresight, and you can't sneak attack".

In fact, I said it in response to you.

If it's that important to your strategy, Foresight can be had as an eighth level spell from the Time domain. Also, Rod of Extend (greater) makes a difference. Whatever you do to maintain your buffs, a truly paranoid diviner type hides out when they aren't active. There is no waiting until afterwords. Your best chance there is a Dispel effect that he didn't think to cover with a contingency, such as one of the Warlock SLA's.

[137beth]

I apologize, I did not see the rod of extend earlier in the thread. I don't think it was mentioned that the wizard should use rod of extend on foresight specifically, but anyone with 19 intelligence (or 18, if casting foresight as an 8th level spell) should be able to figure out that if you have a rod of extension and your only problem is a duration which is too short, that you should simply extend foresight

Fixed that for you.

In this case, "sacrificing everything" doesn't mean all that much given that the "sacrifice" is small before he starts picking generally useful spells and feats. I was basically saying that not all wizards have every trick mentioned...in this case the primary "trick" is extended foresight...which basically leaves the rogue with the option to search for a wizard who does not know foresight, if he wants to claim to have single-handily killed a pure wizard.

[aje8]

I think some of this is missing the point.

The Wizard's plan is NOT to beat whatever you do with the right spell. It's to always go first and then either 1-round you or teleport away.

Why a Wizard goes first:
Ok so, let's assume the Wizard loses intiative. (Although, it's easier for him to optimize it then most classes because of Nerveskitter and Hummingbird Familiar, any class can take the feats and buy the items appropiate to optimizing this. My Wizard usually have at least a +10 to init by lv. 20) Wait! Wait! Stop! Before any of that happens, the Wizard goes in the suprize round. Even if there isn't one, he goes in one anyway. Wizards like this spend all their time shapechanged into Dire Tortises for just this ability. You suprise him so you both act in the suprise round you say? No problem, the Wizard just casts either Celerity or it's greater version to gain an action immedatley. He can do this in the middle of the combatants turn, and can go immediatley. And if that action isn't enough to finish his enemy off, the Wizard is simply casting Time Stop. He's also not dazed from celerity via a spell called Tears of the Martyr I believe? I'm a little hazy on the name. Anyway, that spell is from the Cleric list and he casts it via Limited Wish and extends it every morning making it last all day. From there, he can Gate in creatures of absurd power, put up a primatic wall and buff himself to high heaven, assuming that is that he doesn't just want to teleport away.

Once the Wizard has gone first, he has many options to defeat his opponent, Timestop->anything is one. Forcecage+Quickened Dimensional Anchor kills many. To beat non-wizard casters, he has Anti-Magic Ray. Reverse Gravity auto-wins against non-flying opponents. There are a bunch of other tricks too, but I won't get into them.

Assuming all of those method won't work on the Wizard's challenger, THEN, he Teleports away. (The Wizard should be able to figure this out due to his above-genius level intellect. If he's unsure, he defualts to teleport away.)

If an enemy manages to kill the Wizard despite all of that, he will be dismayed to realize that he merely killed the Wizard's astrally projected duplicate. The Wizard never leaves his personal demi-plane which he created via the Genesis spell.

And if an adversary manages to track down the real version of a Wizard and somehow go first, THEN he has to deal with the flying, invisible, supergenius before him. A super-genius wearing an LOS blocking metal hat and with many, many contingencies up.

Note that this hypothetical wizard needs only a few spells plus ways to end combat. Basically, Contigency, Overland Flight, a Ring of Invisibility, Teleport, Celerity and Greater Celerity, Time Stop, Shapechange, and Genesis. (although he doesn't prepare that one regularly, he just cast it a while back.)

[137beth]

@above: yes, and foresight allows him to always go first. The previous discussion was to whether or not a rogue could somehow get a first strike. The verdict was that any wizard with foresight+rod of extension could never lose the first strike to a rogue of the same level.

[aje8]

@above: yes, and foresight allows him to always go first. The previous discussion was to whether or not a rogue could somehow get a first strike. The verdict was that any wizard with foresight+rod of extension could never lose the first strike to a rogue of the same level.

I dislike Foresight, it's a 9th level slot for something that can w be done easier. Also, it's duration means that a hypothetical attack could catch a Wizard with it down. They would have to get lucky, but they could do it. I was explaining why a Wizard can always go first for many other reasons.