What's the use of hand crossbows?

[Kaeso]

You can see all the core weapons here.

The hand crossbow is an exotic weapon and deals a mere 1d4 damage for a medium character. The light crossbow is a simple weapon and deals a whoopin' 1d8 damage for a medium character. Doesn't this make the hand crossbow completely obsolete?

Sure, it's possible to duel wield a hand crossbow, but that means you have to burn a feat for the proficiency, another one for two weapon fighting, take rapid reload and do who knows what to make sure you can reload both crossbows. In the end you've burned at least three feats to do the exact same ammount of damage you'd get with a light crossbow, a weapon everybody (even a monk or a wizard) can use! You'd be better off using exotic weapon prof. for a repeating light crossbow.

Is there anything I'm overlooking? I find it hard to believe that a simple weapon could be so vastly superior to an exotic one.

[Greenish]

Hand crossbow is easier to conceal, and rogues gain the proficiency for free. Then there are some decent feats for it, such as Hand Crossbow Focus (WF and Rapid Reload in one package, excellent for Crossbow Sniper). The weapon damage shouldn't be one's main source of damage, either.

Though yeah, in the end, it's not worth the feat for EWP, much like most other exotic weapons.

[FuryOfMetal]

Alot of exotic weapons a just a trap (even though most look cool.) There are a few exotic weapons that give you things you don't get from martial or simple weapons, the best being the spiked chain as it has reach, threatens adjacent squares, can trip, be finessed and 2 handed power attacked with.

In general the other crossbows are superior, but most importantly the hand crossbow looks cooler They have bonuses for being concealed I believe, can indeed be dual wielded and are on the rogueish proficiency lists. This is important as alot of common rogue builds use TWF to get extra sneak attack damage and the ability to get in that extra few dice of sneak attack is great at low levels. Of course once you have your iterave attack then it'd be better to us a bow for ranged sneak attack, or just be up close as it'll save on feats.

But most importantly they're cool

[Kaeso]

Hand crossbow is easier to conceal, and rogues gain the proficiency for free. Then there are some decent feats for it, such as Hand Crossbow Focus (WF and Rapid Reload in one package, excellent for Crossbow Sniper). The weapon damage shouldn't be one's main source of damage, either.

Though yeah, in the end, it's not worth the feat for EWP, much like most other exotic weapons.

What book is hand crossbow focus from? I can't find it {Scrubbed}

[Ruinix]

also there is an ubber full skirmish dual hand crossbow precition damage wich can add dex to damage, extend the skirmish to 60', and that u just need a wand of unseen servan and that its.

[FMArthur]

Lookin' cool. All crossbows suck compared to throwing weapons and are generally more difficult to optimize than bows. If I were to use a crossbow, it would be to TWF hand crossbows. If a character is relying on a weapon's base damage after third level he's a chump, plain and simple. And if you're going for bonus damage dice on attacks, you might as well try to get more attacks (ie fight with a weapon in each hand). Rogues and Ninjas are the obvious users - with Ninjas (by some miracle) actually being better than Rogues for this one particular combat tactic - because they both get easy bonus damage and free proficiency in the weapon.

It's a feat whirlpool, but it can be made to work. What useful thing are you going to do with that one light crossbow that someone TWFing hand crossbows can't do better?

[Tengu_temp]

A rogue can hold a hand crossbow in one hand and something else in the other. The damage difference is negligible beyond very low levels.

[Ruinix]

Lookin' cool. All crossbows suck compared to throwing weapons and are generally more difficult to optimize than bows. If I were to use a crossbow, it would be to TWF hand crossbows. If a character is relying on a weapon's base damage after third level he's a chump, plain and simple. And if you're going for bonus damage dice on attacks, you might as well try to get more attacks (ie fight with a weapon in each hand). Rogues and Ninjas are the obvious users - with Ninjas (by some miracle) actually being better than Rogues for this one particular combat tactic - because they both get easy bonus damage and free proficiency in the weapon.

It's a feat whirlpool, but it can be made to work. What useful thing are you going to do with that one light crossbow that someone TWFing hand crossbows can't do better?

I disagree with the statement of "more dificult to optimize"

-crossbows can add dex to damage, bow don't.
-crossbows had less range than bows, precition damage work on short range.

both need several feats and features for shine

[Greenish]

What book is hand crossbow focus from? I can't find it {Scrubbed}

Drow of the Underdark, I seem to recall.

I disagree with the statement of "more dificult to optimize"

-crossbows can add dex to damage, bow don't.
-crossbows had less range than bows, precition damage work on short range.

both need several feats and features for shine

Crossbow Sniper is just 1/2 of Dex mod to damage, and I don't see how having less range is better.

Besides, needing several specific feats from different sources to compete with bows does mean "more difficult to optimize".

[Yuki Akuma]

I disagree with the statement of "more dificult to optimize"

-crossbows can add dex to damage, bow don't.
-crossbows had less range than bows, precition damage work on short range.

both need several feats and features for shine

...You do know bows can shoot at short range too, right?

Your second point is ridiculous.

[Telonius]

Is there anything I'm overlooking? I find it hard to believe that a simple weapon could be so vastly superior to an exotic one.

2 for 1 deal on ammunition? Other than that, I got nothing.

EDIT: Not even that, was looking at the repeating version.
EDIT2: Ah, discovered one thing - firing a Light crossbow one-handed gives it a -2. Hand Crossbow doesn't have that penalty. I think this could allow you to reload, fire at full attack bonus, and still get a shield bonus from a Buckler.

[lsfreak]

It's basically useful because rogues get it for free. Other than that, nothing really. The difference between a shortbow and a hand crossbow isn't much for a ranged rogue; crossbow has the feat tax of Rapid Reload but you get Weapon Focus with it for free thanks to Hand Crossbow Focus. Crossbow Sniper often won't come up, in my experience, because it's a) not a whole lot of extra damage and b) rogues are already feat-starved, so the difference between Crossbow Sniper and composite shortbows is often nonexistent. Hand crossbows have the minor advantage that if you're running around with a Str score below 10, it doesn't hurt your damage.

In most cases, I'd probably just stick with shortbows.

[Psyx]

Flavour?

Style?

*gasp* Maybe even Roleplaying reasons?

[Kaeso]

Flavour?

Style?

*gasp* Maybe even Roleplaying reasons?

Why? A crossbow is still a crossbow, and both can be fired from one hand.
It hardly makes a difference unless you're planning to make a detailed sketch of your character, and even then the difference is neglectable.

[Yuki Akuma]

Why? A crossbow is still a crossbow, and both can be fired from one hand.
It hardly makes a difference unless you're planning to make a detailed sketch of your character, and even then the difference is neglectable.

Because hand crossbows being easier to conceal could obviously never motivate a character to use one. Nope, an assassin using a concealable weapon has nothing to do with roleplaying.

[Shenanigans]

Because hand crossbows being easier to conceal could obviously never motivate a character to use one. Nope, an assassin using a concealable weapon has nothing to do with roleplaying.

Yeah, I think it is mostly a roleplaying thing, even if they have given hand crossbow users some decent feat choices.

Also, hand crossbows are used by Drow to deliver poison into my characters. ;)

[Greenish]

Because hand crossbows being easier to conceal could obviously never motivate a character to use one. Nope, an assassin using a concealable weapon has nothing to do with roleplaying.

Though given that it already pays for the ability with shorter range and lesser damage, I don't see the need for it to be Exotic.

[Fax Celestis]

-crossbows can add dex to damage, bow don't.
-crossbows had less range than bows, precition damage work on short range.

Composite bows add Str to damage. Crossbows never add a stat to damage without a feat.

Long and shortbows are equally capable of covering closer range than crossbows, and are also capable of using Manyshot (or the Greater version), Rapid Shot, and even just the full-attack action without a feat.

[Kaeso]

Because hand crossbows being easier to conceal could obviously never motivate a character to use one. Nope, an assassin using a concealable weapon has nothing to do with roleplaying.

Where is it stated that hand crossbows are easier to conceal than light crossbows? The SRD doesn't say anything about it and the PHB only says it's favoured by stealthy characters in the flavour text. Unlike the dagger it doesn't give a bonus on sleight of hand checks.

[jmbrown]

Where is it stated that hand crossbows are easier to conceal than light crossbows? The SRD doesn't say anything about it and the PHB only says it's favoured by stealthy characters in the flavour text. Unlike the dagger it doesn't give a bonus on sleight of hand checks.

Sleight of hand. You can hide a light weapon or an easily concealed range weapon. I wouldn't call a crossbow an easily concealed ranged weapon.

[Yuki Akuma]

Actually the SRD does have something to say about hand crossbows being easily concealable.

You can hide a small object (including a light weapon or an easily concealed ranged weapon, such as a dart, sling, or hand crossbow) on your body.

Check the skill descriptions next time.

Daggers are easier to conceal than any other weapon, but you can only conceal light weapons to start with...

[LibraryOgre]

In earlier editions, hand crossbows were primarily a poison delivery device. In 3.x, they work for that and for precision damage delivery.

Plus, they look like pistols.

[Shenanigans]

Composite bows add Str to damage. Crossbows never add a stat to damage without a feat.

Long and shortbows are equally capable of covering closer range than crossbows, and are also capable of using Manyshot (or the Greater version), Rapid Shot, and even just the full-attack action without a feat.

You're not going to get any argument out of me that regular bows (long, short, composite, even bone) are superior to crossbows in every or nearly every crunch category. However, they sometimes just have a better flavor.

For example, I have a buddy who made a dwarven crossbow sniper. Now he used a heavy, repeating crossbow because it seemed more appropriate for the concept and build (dwarven outcast, spec ops kind of feel)

[Tengu_temp]

Flavour?

Style?

*gasp* Maybe even Roleplaying reasons?

There's no such thing as "roleplaying reasons" IC. The only people who don't use the most effective weapons for their abilities are these who can't afford them, and these who have enough confidence in their skills to purposely choose subpar equipment for style.

[Yuki Akuma]

There's no such thing as "roleplaying reasons" IC. The only people who don't use the most effective weapons for their abilities are these who can't afford them, and these who have enough confidence in their skills to purposely choose subpar equipment for style.

Or people who want weapons they can hide easily.

Although if you want a ranged weapon you can hide easily, use a sling.

[Tengu_temp]

Or people who want weapons they can hide easily.

That counts as an effective weapon for your abilities. I didn't just mean raw power.

[Fax Celestis]

You're not going to get any argument out of me that regular bows (long, short, composite, even bone) are superior to crossbows in every or nearly every crunch category. However, they sometimes just have a better flavor.

For example, I have a buddy who made a dwarven crossbow sniper. Now he used a heavy, repeating crossbow because it seemed more appropriate for the concept and build (dwarven outcast, spec ops kind of feel)

Yeah, I'll give you that. But the person I was responding to was using mechanical points of justification: I felt the need to respond in kind.

[Starbuck_II]

I disagree with the statement of "more dificult to optimize"

-crossbows can add dex to damage, bow don't.
-crossbows had less range than bows, precition damage work on short range.

both need several feats and features for shine

With Aptitude Weapon (ToB) Composite bows add 1/2 Dex and Str to damage.

[FMArthur]

With Aptitude Weapon, you can fire splitting arrows/bolts and fire another splitting projectile again every time one threatens a crit and fire again if they confirm their crit. Crossbows have a better threat range than bows, and hand crossbows can be dual-wielded to nearly double the amount of projectiles you shoot, making it less and less likely for your endless volley to lose its momentum.

Aptitude Weapons are silly.

[Yuki Akuma]

Hand crossbows still require a free hand to reload.