Celestia

[Dusk Eclipse]

The thing with Solars is they are more exemplars of goodness, where the Tome Archon I believe is the exemplar of Lawful goodness. So I agree there should be something along the lines of a pit fiend/Balor for the archons

[DeltaEmil]

Don't solars (that are of good alignment) come in all three variants? Neutral good, chaotic good, and lawful good.

[Zaydos]

I can go with that, although I think in some editions Solars have had an alignment of "any good" and were supposed to be capable of being the LG, CG< and NG equivalents; then again the Gaurdinal and Eladrin top ranks were better in comparison to fiends back then (not sure on Archons).

Solars could also be kept in their old roles as "generic top servants to the good gods" which is forgotten by WotC often enough (although then we need a "generic top servants to the evil gods" race).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Don't solars (that are of good alignment) come in all three variants? Neutral good, chaotic good, and lawful good.

That is my point, they are good, there is one for every aligment, but I think the point of the Tome Archon is to have an outsider that INVARIABLY will be Lawful.

I am not sure if I am making any sense right now

[blackjack217]

Now I want to run an encounter to start an epic campaign with the level 21 characters getting attacked by a greater aspect of Asamodious + 12 pit fiends, who then get blindsided by the Entire Celestial Hedebond. That's the start.

Also I think angels are indicative of 3.5's lazy take on good, as in they could not be bothered to create LG, NG, and CG creatures.

[Zaydos]

That is my point, they are good, there is one for every aligment, but I think the point of the Tome Archon is to have an outsider that INVARIABLY will be Lawful.

I am not sure if I am making any sense right now

You are. Although really I think WotC blew it with most of the Outsiders besides Tanar'ri and Baatezu in 3.X.

Ultraloths are significantly weaker than either of those, when supposed to be almost on par physically, their equal in SLA, and have powerful wizarding skills; and instead are over CR'd, and weaker in both of the first 2 and completely lacking in the 3rd category. Arcanaloths were supposed to have some really good SLAs, and powerful wizarding skills... and got neither. I'm not happy with the Guardinals or Eladrins either, and I only managed to obtain the Planes of Law long after I stopped dealing with 2e so I'm not familiar with Archons' 2e stats yet to comment.

And they didn't even officially update the Modrons Although some of the high level ones would get dual 9s if you kept their 2e spellcasting.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I can go with that, although I think in some editions Solars have had an alignment of "any good" and were supposed to be capable of being the LG, CG< and NG equivalents; then again the Gaurdinal and Eladrin top ranks were better in comparison to fiends back then (not sure on Archons).

Solars could also be kept in their old roles as "generic top servants to the good gods" which is forgotten by WotC often enough (although then we need a "generic top servants to the evil gods" race).

Since solars are individually much more powerful than pit fiends and balors, what we could do if we were Dicefreaks-ifying Celestia would be to upgrade the throne archon to pit fiend/balor power (bringing the new solar a bit closer to the pit fiend and balor when we got to it) and instead use the solar as the chassis for the unique beings, just like Gates of Hell uses advanced pit fiends + special templates to stat out the Dukes and other minor Powers of Baator.


So...given that I have pretty much every 2e and 3e book related to outsiders, the planes, and Planescape, I'd definitely be up for a project to bring the other Outer Planes up to Gates of Hell level. Anyone else?

[blackjack217]

I don't particularly like the fluff (mainly because I think Asamodius needs to be vunerable to his peers, as in he wins because he is one of these http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...gnificentBitch and not because he is just strong) that said I would help... if all of my books weren't in another state. I am very interested in this project and would love to give feedback until I retrieve those books in about two weeks.

[Eldan]

In the fluff for Planescape, there were seven Archons, for the seven layers of the mountain. Lantern, Hound, Trumpet, Tome, Throne and... can't remember the other two. Those were the native outsiders of Celestia.
Solars were an entirely different thing. They were an enormous force. Some of the strongest powers in the outer planes. But they did not belong to any plane. They belonged to individual causes and were supposed to be vastly stronger than anything else. They could summon phoenixes and elder titans.

So, I'm actually opposed of the idea of more than seven archons: seven archons for seven layers made sense, even if the seventh layer was never seen.

[Zaydos]

Owl and Warden Archon. They're also in the BoED.

[blackjack217]

my $.02 Is that if we are going to do this project we might as well try to create counterparts for as many devils/demons as possible. Also I thought tome and throne were the same thing. Also there are sword archons one of 2 CR 10 archons

[Zaydos]

And BoED does associate each Archon with a layer of Mount Celestia.

[Chess435]

Now I want to run an encounter to start an epic campaign with the level 21 characters getting attacked by a greater aspect of Asamodious + 12 pit fiends, who then get blindsided by the Entire Celestial Hedebond. That's the start.

Also I think angels are indicative of 3.5's lazy take on good, as in they could not be bothered to create LG, NG, and CG creatures.

That sounds like an awesome campaign idea. I'd totally want to play.

[blackjack217]

Me too but my books are in the wrong state and I have never DM'ed before and I don't think epic is the place to start. Still you would get bonus points for casting dimensional anchor on Asmodeus after the Hedebond show up.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

So, I'm actually opposed of the idea of more than seven archons: seven archons for seven layers made sense, even if the seventh layer was never seen.

The idea wasn't to introduce any new archons, but rather to rejigger the stats of the existing archons to make them more comparable to their fiendish counterparts. When I was talking about nerfing solars, I was thinking 3e had turned them into generic NG celestials because the SRD doesn't has a guardinal entry. It turns out that won't be necessary, fortunately, so we can leave the solars as they are.

[hamishspence]

Throne Archons can be a non-unique group- the highest of non-unique archons- on a par with balors or pit fiends- I'd upgrade them from CR14 to CR20.

"Tome Archons" however, is an informal term for the Celestial Hebdomad, which are all unique celestials- and thus should probably be on a par with the Lords of the Nine.

I like the notion of a Gates of Hell-style update of Celestia- but it would be a very big project.

Useful note- MMIV adds another archon- the Justice Archon- CR6, looks like a humanoid with wings. May be a good "basic aerial trooper" for Celestia.

[blackjack217]

Throne Archons can be a non-unique group- the highest of non-unique archons- on a par with balors or pit fiends- I'd upgrade them from CR14 to CR20.

Like I said I just got tome and throne mixed up because I was in a diferent state than my BoED

I like the notion of a Gates of Hell-style update of Celestia- but it would be a very big project.

Thread + group? Be nice to try. I would say spend minimal time on the inevitable creation story that has a good chance of being ignored and more time on establishing the Archons as a credible threat to Asmodeus (none of this all according to plan stuff read this http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0137.html) and Bator while simultaneously providing reasons to why they need mortal help. I'd start with restating and go from there.

[hamishspence]

Maybe give the archons a bit more on their personalities, plans, and whatnot.

Just as, despite all being LE, the Lords of the Nine have a lot of differences- so the archons could be similar.

Domiel could be redone as sneakier, much more like the order he's the patron of (Slayers of Domiel).

Hmm- maybe draw heavily on Tome of Battle for some of them? Raziel as crusader-ish as well as paladin-ish, Pictis Sophia as unarmed swordsage, etc.

Zaphkiel would be Asmodeus's peer in power- and history- like him he is an "ancient mystery" so I like the idea of him as Avatar of the Supreme Virtue.

[NineThePuma]

Dicefreakifying the Good planes is WAY up on my list of things to do. I'd love to take part in a project like that.

Do we want to work off of some of what DF has done, or start from scratch?

[blackjack217]

meh don't like their lore as I've said but willing to help I'll just refluff later

[Agrippa]

Dicefreakifying the Good planes is WAY up on my list of things to do. I'd love to take part in a project like that.

Do we want to work off of some of what DF has done, or start from scratch?

They already have a project like that. They might even get it done by 2013.

[NineThePuma]

They already have a project like that. They might even get it done by 2013.

I know. Let's see if we can build it first.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Thread + group? Be nice to try. I would say spend minimal time on the inevitable creation story that has a good chance of being ignored and more time on establishing the Archons as a credible threat to Asmodeus (none of this all according to plan stuff read this http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0137.html) and Bator while simultaneously providing reasons to why they need mortal help. I'd start with restating and go from there.

On the creation story front, we're not going to get much agreement there, and it's something we'd probably want to do after DF-ifying the CE and CG planes anyway (if we ever got that far), so here's what I propose for that section:

Long ago, the universe was shaped. The devils spread propaganda about those days; the demons lie in any words that pass their lips; the daemons claim to agree with whatever theory is espoused by those in their company with which they wish to ingratiate themselves. The Lords of the Nine and the Hebdomad know the truth, and use that truth in their plans against their opposites, but the seven rulers of the Seven Mounting Heavens do not dwell on what was and what could have been. Regardless of the Lord of the Ninth's identity, regardless of the plots that rise from the depths of Hells, it is every archon's duty to advance the cause of Good against the devils wherever they rear their ugly heads.

Something along those lines should serve as a nice placeholder.

Maybe give the archons a bit more on their personalities, plans, and whatnot.

That's what Gates of Hell did, so of course we'd want to do the same here. Since there's less canon on them, we're free to improvise a lot more.

Zaphkiel would be Asmodeus's peer in power- and history- like him he is an "ancient mystery" so I like the idea of him as Avatar of the Supreme Virtue.

Particularly since he's the only in canon to have been there since the beginning--like the Lords of the Nine, the others have been replaced as they've died fighting for the cause and all Hebdomad members must be brought in by Zaphkiel--having him be an avatar like Asmodeus would work quite nicely.

Dicefreakifying the Good planes is WAY up on my list of things to do. I'd love to take part in a project like that.

Do we want to work off of some of what DF has done, or start from scratch?

I think using the GoH templates for Lords of the Nine and the lesser unique beings would be a good start, but we don't have to follow their design principles exactly.

meh don't like their lore as I've said but willing to help I'll just refluff later

Most of it's not original Dicefreaks lore; it's 2e lore from Guide to Hell with the trademark names replaced with similar ones.

[blackjack217]

On the creation story front, we're not going to get much agreement there, and it's something we'd probably want to do after DF-ifying the CE and CG planes anyway (if we ever got that far), so here's what I propose for that section:

Long ago, the universe was shaped. The devils spread propaganda about those days; the demons lie in any words that pass their lips; the daemons claim to agree with whatever theory is espoused by those in their company with which they wish to ingratiate themselves. The Lords of the Nine and the Hebdomad know the truth, and use that truth in their plans against their opposites, but the seven rulers of the Seven Mounting Heavens do not dwell on what was and what could have been. Regardless of the Lord of the Ninth's identity, regardless of the plots that rise from the depths of Hells, it is every archon's duty to advance the cause of Good against the devils wherever they rear their ugly heads.

um... but didn't you just say this?

Particularly since he's the only in canon to have been there since the beginning--like the Lords of the Nine, the others have been replaced as they've died fighting for the cause and all Hebdomad members must be brought in by Zaphkiel--having him be an avatar like Asmodeus would work quite nicely.

[JonestheSpy]

In d&d, the forces of evil vastly outnumber the forces of good. There are more of them, they're better armed and they're better at what they do.

The blood war takes care of this keeping the devils and demons busy while the angels try to improve the place and generally not get completely overpowered.

I don't think that actually accurate. An argument could be made for higher numbers, but if you look at stats and such I don't think the fiends are more powerful.

BTW, as far as a bit of gaming history goes, originally the idea was that the Good creatures were rarer but more powerful than the bad guys. Gold dragons were the most powerful dragon breed, Bahamut kicked Tiamat's ass, and the lawful good Kirin was one of the most powerful non-unique monsters you could meet. Devas, Planetars and Solars were introduced around the time of the 1st Edition Monster Manual2, to round out the vastly outnumbered (in terms on entries in the manuals, anyways) Good guys and have direct planar counterparts to the demons, daemons, and devils, with planetars and solars being the good power-equivalents of the archdevils and demon princes.

In 3rd edition, they finally created alignment-specific good guys - archons, eldarin, and the neutral good animal guys. Then they brought back the exiled-by-2nd-edition Archfiends and upped their power level considerably, and introduced all the head archons, Courts of Stars, etc to be there good counterparts.

I think it's pretty obvious that evil stuff gets a lot more written about it because the majority of gamers will be fighting Evil. I don't think it has to follow that Good is inherently weaker than Evil. Yeah, a lot of folks seem to like the idea in theory of an ultra-high powered "The multiverse will be overrun by fiends unless the PC's can save it! campaign, but the actual number of games that get there is really really small, I'm guessing.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

um... but didn't you just say this?

The point is that we would not have to discuss the definite truth or falsehood of any creation story. If you're in Planescape and believe that Asmodeus is the avatar of one of the Twin Serpents, Zaphkiel is the avatar of the other. If you're in the Dicefreaks 'verse and believe the Three Progenitors of Law take, they're both avatars along with Primus. If you're in Greyhawk and believe the Pact Primeval story, Zaphkiel is one of Asmodeus's old angelic buddies and guardian of one of the copies of the Pact. Any contributor can put in various takes on the origins/relations/motivations of the various archons, but we don't have to come to a single consensus as to what the "real" story is, since having to do that first would be a pretty big roadblock to getting this done.

[Zaydos]

2e introduced Archons, Eladrins, and Guardinals; it was in Planescape (same place we got the Blood War).

[blackjack217]

The point is that we would not have to discuss the definite truth or falsehood of any creation story. If you're in Planescape and believe that Asmodeus is the avatar of one of the Twin Serpents, Zaphkiel is the avatar of the other. If you're in the Dicefreaks 'verse and believe the Three Progenitors of Law take, they're both avatars along with Primus. If you're in Greyhawk and believe the Pact Primeval story, Zaphkiel is one of Asmodeus's old angelic buddies and guardian of one of the copies of the Pact. Any contributor can put in various takes on the origins/relations/motivations of the various archons, but we don't have to come to a single consensus as to what the "real" story is, since having to do that first would be a pretty big roadblock to getting this done.

Fine with me So... when do we start?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Fine with me So... when do we start?

Ready when you are. I'd suggest someone put up a thread in homebrew asking for volunteers and hammering out who's going to do what and in what order so people who haven't been following this thread can participate. I can post that thread if no one else wants to.

[blackjack217]

yeah... the guy without any books with him is not the best person to start a project... So you do it