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2012-02-29, 05:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
The rule is "never underestimate your players to throw you for a loop!" I was afraid of what my players would do with the phylactery. I expected them to just destroy it, and make an enemy of the Ghostlord. They simply grabbed it, put it in a bag and walked to Brindoll!
I am not sure what to do. My first impulse: Have the Ghostlord send a bunch of undead to kill them and get it back during the Battle. Any thoughts?
I have no idea what they plan on doing with it.
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2012-02-29, 09:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
Thanks, Berron, glad to see someone's still enjoying it. ;)
monkey3: Let's look at this from several angles. First, the mechanical aspects: the module itself leaves some direct consequences for PCs who choose not to return the phylactery or destroy it.
(1) There's a fourth wave of monsters in the "Streets of Blood" encounter -- those being the undead bonedrinkers.
(2) The Ghostlord is with Kharn in the "Final Battle" encounter, which is meant to significantly raise the EL of the battle.
(3) Even more significant is that if left undealt-with, both Ulwai and Varanthian rejoin the main Red Hand force after the Ghostlord has finished making the bonedrinkers. Presumably Varanthian therefore shows up during the Battle of Brindol, maybe even during the "Streets of Blood" encounter, while Ulwai on RHOD shows up at the "Final Battle" too. Those are big increases on the difficulty levels of those encounters since the players won't have the 15 minute adventuring day open to them as they do in the Thornwaste.
Looking at it from a story perspective, here's my thinking:
(1) It attacks suspension of disbelief to send in undead after the party specifically. The only reason the Ghostlord has been helping the Red Hand is because he thinks the Red Hand has his phylactery and he doesn't know where it is. If you suddenly have phylactery-hunting undead during the Battle of Brindol you'll have the players asking "Huh? How come he didn't recover his phylactery from the Red Hand when they first took it if he knows where it is now?"
(2) Similarly, I wouldn't go with the idea that the Ghostlord "senses" the phylactery in Brindol from some distance away, mostly because, again, he'd be just as likely to start tearing into the Red Hand right there and then -- if they haven't got his phylactery, they have no real hold on him.
(3) But it doesmake sense that the Red Hand sends agents in either before or during the battle to try and recover the phylactery. The Red Hand knows they have to have the phylactery in their possession to control the Ghostlord, so they have to get it back. If it's during the battle maybe Varanthian and Ulwai themselves do the job, since they had the job of looking after the Ghostlord to begin with anyway. If it's before the battle maybe Miha Serani (if she hasn't already been uncovered) figures out the party's got the phylactery and brings in the "assassination squad" of earlier in the adventure to try and recover it. As for how the Hand otherwise detects it: scrying, maybe, or some handwavium that says it's got a magical tracer on it or something.
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2012-03-01, 01:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
My two cents...
I would say it depends on what the Ghostlord knows.
If he doesn't know that the players took the phylactary, just follow the book (roll an opposed Red Hand bluff vs an undead sense motive). The Red Hand will do lots of things to get what they want, including lying and manipulating a Ghostlord. And considering the Ghostlord is under the impression the Red Hand still has it, the situation is still the same.
If he does know (or learns it later via visiting outside his lab or catches the Red Hand):
- have him demand it back, and have him threaten he will join the Red Hand if they don't.
- have the Ghostlord propose a trade, the phylactery for something else (some magic items, help in the defense of Brindol). Have the Paladin make the oath to honor the trade.
- have the Ghostlord make a new phylactery (if he has got everything to build it (time, money, etc.))
- let them sit on it and deal with it later (I can't imagine the Ghostlord would walk into the middle of a war, without an alliance to one of both sides, so he would be too keen on running around the Vale anything soon): make it the start of the follow-up adventure
Btw.. can anyone tell me what 'WIP' and 'PEACH' means?
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2012-03-01, 02:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
"WIP" means "Work In Progress"; "PEACH" means "Please Examine And Critique Honestly".
The Ghostlord cannot create a new phylactery (or he would have done so before now). His available resources are irrelevant; it isn't possible to create more than the first.Last edited by Taelas; 2012-03-01 at 02:03 AM.
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2012-03-01, 02:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
Does anyone have any advice on running this in Iron Kingdoms?
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2012-03-01, 02:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
@ Degen: it might take some clicking around inside this thread, but there was some very brief brainstorming on the subject of converting it to the Iron Kingdoms setting -- I think round page 4 or 5, but I can distinctly remember it's there.
I'd have a spoilertag devoted to it if I had a more complete account of how to do so, but as it is, that's all I got right now...hope that helps?
EDIT: Actually, it was page 8. You can find the discussion right here.Last edited by Saintheart; 2012-03-01 at 02:52 AM.
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2012-03-01, 02:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
You sir are a gentleman and a scholar.
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2012-03-01, 06:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-03-01, 11:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
@Saintheart and @Berron
My bad. I should have given more information. Here's how it went. I ruled that the box the Phylactery was being held in is a non-detection box. When the opened it, and took it out they talked about what to do with it. At that point the Ghostlord detected it, and did a scry (druid spell he was saving for then he can detect his gem).
The party quickly put the phylactery back in the non-detection box, but now the Ghostlord has seen them. So every night, the Ghostlord has been scrying a different party member, tracking them back to Brindoll. The party knows this because the mostly detect when they are being scryed. He has demanded his phylactery back (via a zombie chimera with a scroll tied to his paw), and he has been ignored.
One idea I had was this:
The Ghostlor knows who has his phylactery and where it is. He knows the Red hand has no hold of him any more. Frankly, he is pissed at the whole blackmail. He wants it back, but he sure doesn't want the Red Hand to kill the party and regain control of the Phylactery.
So The Ghstlord kills the Red Hand agents that are with him (Ulwai and Varanthian), and sends his own agents (Bonedrinkers) at the end of the battle.
One problem with this is that Ulwai and Varanthian are beautifuly made NPCs and it is a waste for the party not toe "meet" them.
I love the idea of a trade. I did not think of it (only threats, which the party ignores). What do you propose the Ghostlord offer for the phylactery?
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2012-03-01, 01:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
The Ghostlord is a bit like Gollum (from LotR), obsessed with his phylactery. Mad in a way, but very clever (how else could he survive 400 years) and wise/experienced. Make sure you play him this way. If he has scryed the party roll some dice to see if he recognises anything (holy symbol and the lot), gather information and use it to the best of his ability (keep in mind though, that he doesn't like leaving his hide-out for a long time).
I don't know if your party has befriended the Elves yet, but IIRC they are pretty close to Rhest. He could ofcourse kidnap some of innocent Elven children. Or offer a large sum of money and magic items if your party is more the greedy kind.
Just make sure that if the party meets the Ghostlord that they know he's powerfull and prepare his defensive/offensive spells (there are some great ideas on the thread). In his eyes the party is in the same league as the Red Hand, so he'll be ruthless (sp?) with them to get his phyl. back.
Tbh.. sending his Bonedrinkers into a warzones is pretty bad, likely to be targeted themselves by an alert victor.... I don't recall if he can shapeshift, but sneaking in as a bird might be a way.
anyway.. have fun
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2012-03-01, 08:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
Originally Posted by monkey3
Maybe run it this way: the Ghostlord offers the location of Azarr Khul, the "head" of the Red Hand, in the Wyrmsmoke Mountains. He thinks if the party destroys Khul, the Hand will fall apart (the bastardry being, of course, that it won't: RHOD on its text all but assures that if the characters mess around trying to wipe the floor with Azarr Khul, Brindol gets destroyed in the process and the Hand wins anyway.) He knows this is something the party would want since he can deduce that the party must be working for the defence of the Vale: they recovered the phylactery, and it was the Red Hand who took it from him in the first place.
But if the characters want to find out where Azarr Khul is, they must come to the Thornwaste and hand over the phylactery in person to the Ghostlord. Hopefully the metagamers in your party will say 'Oh, cool! Chance to step over a level boss or two and end the campaign quicker!'
So the party goes to the stone lion of their own volition - no need to search for the location, the Ghostlord gives it to them happily ... without mentioning that there are hobgoblins and Varanthian already there. And of course, without mentioning to Ulwai or Varanthian that there's a pack of high-powered adventurers coming their way.
And when the party has wiped the floor with Ulwai, before they've had a chance to rest and recover their spells, hit them with the Ghostlord's arrival immediately after the battle. With all of his allies. He is scrying on the party, after all. The Ghostlord will keep his end of the deal so long as they hand over his phylactery.
This is a win-win for the Ghostlord: if the players don't fight and hand over the phylactery, he gets what he wants and the party's on its way. And sending the party on to Azarr Khul either destroys the party, or demoralises the Red Hand, or both.
(And the best part is the party still has the option to go after Azarr Khul or not. If they do, wipe the floor with them since they're not levelled high enough, or just don't let them get inside the mountain (it's got that password on the door, and the Ghostlord surely won't know what it is). If they do live, they'll hopefully waste enough time that getting back to Brindol before the siege does turn into a nail-biter.) If they don't go right now, they've acquired a valuable piece of plot information which doesn't magically arise after the Battle of Brindol as it does on the RHOD text.) And like I said, you still get to fight Ulwai and Varanthian this way.Last edited by Saintheart; 2012-03-01 at 08:25 PM.
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2012-03-02, 04:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
Devious, mean, brilliant.. Saint, I like it
a couple of things (I might end up using this myself):
If the party leaves the city to go to Azurr, this should have some ramifications for 'pally-like' players. They leave the city relatively undefend (after all, they are about the highest characters in the region) at the moment the 'helpless' needed them the most (fighting the evil far away, while it is on their doorstep).
I would drop in a clue or two (something about that they can't be back in time before the battle of Brindol starts) and see how it plays out.
If you can, wait a couple of minutes (about 10). The Ghostlord is smart enough to know that all the short term (buff) magic has ended (1 min/level and shorter (e.g. Bull's Strenght)).
And create a bit of fog (sight about 60 feet). In this way the sun is blocked, so the Ghostlord can walk outside
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2012-03-02, 05:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
That also gives them plenty of time to heal up, though.
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2012-03-02, 06:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
If so, all the better: either they waste their limited-use per-day items (like Healing Belts) or potions of healing or spell slots. The main thing is to deny as many encounter-ending spells like Glitterdust to them as you can. This'll be harder if there's a spontaneous caster in the party, of course, but against arcanists it's taking Batman after he's already used up a decent proportion of his tricks.
EDIT: Also, if you're going with this route, try and confront the party in the entrance parlour just outside Ulwai's chambers. Then, if the party does pronounce itself ready to rumble, retreat back down the nearest passage ... and through the multiple Forbiddance effects the Ghostlord will have layered every five feet of his complex with, thus ripping lots of hitpoints off the party as they try and pursue.Last edited by Saintheart; 2012-03-02 at 06:30 AM.
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2012-03-02, 07:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
And when the Ghostlord has his phylactery back, it would makes sense try to run the party off.. Letting them live to fight the Red Hand another day..
Win - Win again for the Ghostlord
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2012-03-11, 07:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
Must say, this whole thread of discussion does suggest to me I really have to edit up the second section of the handbook with some thoughts on dealing with the phylactery, since the subject of its continuing existence does come up again and again. Think I'll chuck it into the Rhest section, with basically two "paths":
(1) what if your party hangs onto the phylactery, and
(2) what if your party destroys the phylactery with plenty of lead time. This is particularly so given, absent a sourcebook I don't know about, I can't actually think of any mechanic that says a lich knows automatically who has destroyed its phylactery if it happens. The lich's MM entry doesn't mention it, so we're probably back to scrying or handwavium tracers on that score.Last edited by Saintheart; 2012-03-11 at 07:51 AM.
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2012-03-12, 07:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
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2012-03-12, 08:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
Indeed. I feel it's thematically fitting for a lich to know if he at least still has a phylactery or not, even if he can't figure out where it is, though there's no text that confirms this is true by ROFAW.
Likewise, there's nothing either way that tells us if Liches can rebuild their phylacteries if they lose the original - I lean towards yes, because it'd be silly to put your sole hope of immortality into a box with Hardness 20 and 40HP, but again ROFAW is silent on the matter.Both are going to be highly DM-specific though, and will have drastic effects on the Ghostlord's reactions to anyone messing with his phylactery.
EDIT: Okay, according to Libris Mortis, it is a one-time thing:
A lich can construct only a single phylactery. A lich whose
phylactery is destroyed suffers no harm, but cannot construct a
new one.Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-03-12 at 08:43 AM.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2012-03-12, 01:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
By RAW, nothing prevents a lich from being raised via true resurrection or resurrection upon permanent death. Assuming this removes the lich template, there's then no reason why he could not go through the lich ritual and construct a new phylactery as part of that.
I disagree that they should know whether it is destroyed or not. Absent any ability to sense it, there is no reason to assume they have that knowledge. Prior to dying, the phylactery is simply an empty container; destroying it inflicts no harm upon the lich directly.
"ROFAW"?Last edited by Taelas; 2012-03-12 at 01:33 PM.
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2012-03-12, 02:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
Rules Or Fluff As Written.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2012-03-12, 08:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
So I'm thinking of ditching Viranthian for a white dragon due to flavour. White dragon in the thorny wastes seems out of place, so I'm thinking of turning Tyr into a mature adult female white dragon (and Azar into a half-white dragon of course), then throwing the CR 11 blue dragon into the Ulwai fight (probably flying up to Ulwai soon after being attacked, probably while charging his breath weapon after a surprise attack).
Any balance issues seen with this? Does anyone else have experience with getting rid of the mis-matched Behir for another dragon?Binders are just hipster clerics
Party member - "What god do you worship?"
Binder - "He died like 1000 years ago, you've probably never heard of him" *sips coffee*
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2012-03-12, 09:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
It really depends on your party's composition, number, and options. CR 11 notionally is about 2-3 levels above where the characters are "meant" to be on RHOD by the time they get to the stone lion, but CR's also a horrible estimator of how hard an encounter actually is. For a straightforward, unoptimised group of 4, throwing them at a blue dragon of Tyrgarun's size and maturity a level or two early could be kinda dangerous. To some extent you have to eyeball it, judge whether the players can handle it.
For example, Varanthian as written on RHOD can be handled pretty easily by competent parties because of the stuff I identified in the handbook -- she has a breath weapon that's only useable every 10 rounds (yep), she has no real buffs available to her, and her prime mechanic for doing damage only works over 2 rounds, during which she's vulnerable to sneak attack.
A blue dragon's a different prospect. Even on the underpowered RHOD version, you have a much faster breath weapon, decent buffs, higher AC, and a Wand of Fireballs. Rebuilding according to the handbook, it becomes much deadlier: Knowledge Devotion, metabreath feats, better spells like Scintillating Scales, Blood Wind and Nerveskitter.
The second thing that springs to mind is that if you're going to have this fight, it should probably be all outside. Just forget about having a fight inside the stone lion (unless it's with the Ghostlord). Basically, a dragon's best means of surviving a confrontation with adventurers depends upon it being able to win initiative and move fast, otherwise it invariably gets clowned on the action economy. If Tyrgarun's going to fight on the wing, he should be flying round the back of the stone lion's head, ducking for cover behind stuff, etc, etc. You don't sit still and you use that 150 feet of movement as best you can -- in particular, since flying creatures have to hold half their movement in reserve to maintain level flight, flip around and land on the stone lion's back which is out of the characters' line of sight.
Switching out Varanthian for a different dragon is an option that's been tried before -- I know there's a discussion around it in the thread earlier, I'll go looking for it to see if anyone's done it before. Actually I might add some text around this subject, it comes up a lot.
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2012-03-12, 09:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
The switch idea was mostly comparing CRs (Behir's 10 vs. Tyr's 11), though I guess dragon's are artificially low on the CR scale from what I hear. I'll try to find that info too, thank you.
I have a party of 6 semi-optimized characters who make really good use of battlefield control. They are about half way to level 7 and just finished the bridge. The higher than expected level is probably from changing all the regulars and veterans into fighters rather than warriors, and having more around to make up for six players.Binders are just hipster clerics
Party member - "What god do you worship?"
Binder - "He died like 1000 years ago, you've probably never heard of him" *sips coffee*
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2012-03-13, 03:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
I know that there arent a ton of people here that have experience with Iron Kingdoms, but if anyone has any advice on where in IK to set RHOD it would be much appreciated. Included for convenience is a map of the setting.
http://burrowowl.net/shimmie2.3/inde.../post/view/724
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2012-03-13, 07:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
Nysehatha Mountains look appropriate to the completely untrained eye.
Binders are just hipster clerics
Party member - "What god do you worship?"
Binder - "He died like 1000 years ago, you've probably never heard of him" *sips coffee*
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2012-03-25, 08:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
Decided to just make Varanthian a half-white dragon.
Party decided that "the ghostlord's gotta be a druid, which means he'll be pissed if goblins start destroying the forest, and we saw some half-dragon behir eat a lion, so he's gotta be willing to help us, let's go ask him" So they walked up to the lion, and got Ulwai's (pretending to be the ghostlord) assurance that he would go kill some goblins, and they left entirely satisfied with themselves convinced a level 13+ druid (due to spell crafting the staff made control weather they walked in to) would be helping them.Binders are just hipster clerics
Party member - "What god do you worship?"
Binder - "He died like 1000 years ago, you've probably never heard of him" *sips coffee*
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2012-04-15, 08:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
My group just won the battle of bryndol. Afterwards, I counted their victory points with them. They got 68 of the required 40, even though they did not do some minor things (and got no points for most of the things I added to the adventure).
So my Impression is, that the goal of 40 VP is far too low.
Has any group ever NOT made this treshold?
And how did they do it? Run from every dragon? Not left bryndol after drellins ferry?
I really like the fact that the module provides a "losing option". But is it not too improbable that it ever comes into play?
and, given that it is only possible to stay under the treshold by letting most of the enemy commanders live, will not the battle of bryndol be pretty impossible anyway? I mean, you will have Kharn, Ulwai, Ghostlord, koth....and five dragons, if you are really unlucky.
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2012-04-20, 11:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
That does seem to be somewhat of a flaw of the victory points system, as if you kill Kharn to have them counted, you probably went through the dragon part at the beginning, which nets a ton of points... I guess if you missed the elves, then did a hit and run on Kharn, ignoring the other wyrmlords and the ghostlord, then you could have the points calculated and get too few.
Binders are just hipster clerics
Party member - "What god do you worship?"
Binder - "He died like 1000 years ago, you've probably never heard of him" *sips coffee*
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2012-04-23, 10:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
It comes from the writers having to build something for even inexperienced Fail Parties. Same reason we have suboptimal tactics for hobgoblins and whatnot - they were writing to a very, very low standard of competence. I agree the VP count is very low and for more savvy parties could stand some improvement.
On the other hand, there are a couple of potential big 'miss points', in particular the Blackfens. If the party goes straight to the blockade, destroys it, and returns straight home, it'll miss out on the elves, the black dragon, Saarvith, and the Ghostlord's phylactery. I grant you it's pretty hard to miss Rhest with Koth's map basically saying "WYRMLORD HERE, PLZ KILL", but some people simply don't notice.
Played straight, Rhest is the only place you can hit the plot trigger to find the Ghostlord without DM interference. Missing out on three sections' worth of VP is going to raise the difficulty level of the Battle of Brindol somewhat -- leaving aside the extra two waves on the Streets of Blood, you have no flying owls, no elves, and two extra Wyrmlords to add extra firepower in the final battle with Kharn.
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2012-04-29, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!
I wonder what the impact would be, on missing out your
airsupportelves. Does it really matter, or is it just flavor?
With extra Wyrmlords at the last battle, it should bring some flavor. The Wyrmlord has some issues with the PC's and real knowledge of their abilities/tactics and some effective ways to counter certain abilities of the party .. it should lead to a interesting battle