General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course.

[Teln]

That is an excellent character concept.

EDIT: Some thoughts: You might want to consider getting in touch with Lytek, the God of Exaltation. He hates the Abyssals almost as much as Malfeas hates being locked up, and since he used to be the head of the Bureau of Humanity, he is owed a lot of favors. Heck, Nara-O might have set you two up already.

Also, if you're crazy enough to teach the Abyssals any Sidereal Martial Arts styles, bothfactions will come down on you like a ton of bricks if they find out.

[golentan]

Interesting character, to say the least. Also, in any discussion of Martial Arts it is time for me to plug my favorite style of all time: Crane Style. CMA, which to the benefit of your character's goal hinges on and rewards compassion and non-killy ways of doing things.

[Xefas]

So, I have a hypothetical question to pose.

While IMing TRD last night, I got the inspiration for an Adamant Caste that moves into Creation after the Seal of Eight Divinities is broken. While touring the Scavenger Lands, collecting data on all the various cultures of non-Autochthonia, he runs into a Night-Caste Solar in Nexus while dispensing a little Communist Secret Police Justice on some petty crooks, which is, of course, lethal in nature. The Night-Caste, we'll call him Vengeance In The Night, is a vigilante attempting to reform the wretched hive of scum and villainy that is Nexus, and set a good example while doing so; i.e. by not killing while doing so.

During their climactic confrontation, Vengeance In The Night accidentally bull rushes the Adamant Caste off of a cat-walk into a vat of pure refined Vitriol. The poor Solar spends several days chastising himself over taking a life. That is, until the Adamant Caste returns, horribly disfigured by the Vitriol as "The Jester", Scourge of Nexus.

So...what happens when Alchemicals get baptized in Vitriol? I know there's no canon answer - just asking for speculation. (Specifically, awesome speculation. Not "Well, nothing happens." speculation.)

(Yes, I came up with an entire silly story as the pretense to asking one relatively simple question.)

[SurlySeraph]

Er... some of his charm slots start performing Infernal charms? He gets transmuted into a Soulsteel alchemical? First-circle demons spill out of his face whenever he gets angry?

That is an excellent character concept.

EDIT: Some thoughts: You might want to consider getting in touch with Lytek, the God of Exaltation. He hates the Abyssals almost as much as Malfeas hates being locked up, and since he used to be the head of the Bureau of Humanity, he is owed a lot of favors. Heck, Nara-O might have set you two up already.

Also, if you're crazy enough to teach the Abyssals any Sidereal Martial Arts styles, bothfactions will come down on you like a ton of bricks if they find out.

Thanks!

Yeah, he'd probably stick to teaching them Celestial styles as a reward for good behavior ("Hey, Flesh-Hewing Heart of Sin, if you don't eat any babies this month I'll teach you a perfect parry. Yes, the whole month. No, Irresistible Succubus Style will not persuade me to let a few slide. Stop it or I'll punch you in the memory.") Setting an Abyssal up to acquire the Creation-Slaying Oblivion Kick is obviously a terrible idea even if you're in a large group of Sidereals.

@golentan: Crane Style definitely looks thematic and useful. Maybe a bit too nonlethal, but certainly a good option to have.

[Ganurath]

Hmm... I would say that vitriol just makes them vitriolic, and requires that they attune to vitriolic gear. On the bright side, they can attune to vitriolic items of any material, just like Infernals.

Now, if you want to get really awesome, dunk the Alchemical in Chalanth. That'll make the Alchemical a Hellforged Alchemical, giving them an Urge from the demon that went into the Chalanth, and a Sapience Rating of either the highest the Chalanth allows or the Alchemical's Essence, whichever is less.

[Mattarias, King.]

Hey guys, just got back from my second game of Exalted. It was pretty fun. Got to kick some ass. We fought a fossil tyrant lizard.

Anyways, does anyone know where the experience point chart for gods is? Scroll of heroes says God-bloods advance with experience like the beings "from which they descend". So... Yeah. Glorious Divinity one had no experience chart that my ST and I could find. A little help or clarification please?

EDIT: Found it, nevermind. "In terms of experience, spirits can gain and spend it
as the other characters do, but can only buy Abilities,
Virtues, sorcery and supernatural martial arts.", along with the rules/exception for godblooded, where they need to spend a bajillion points and time raising essence and charms/spells.

[Teln]

So...what happens when Alchemicals get baptized in Vitriol? I know there's no canon answer - just asking for speculation. (Specifically, awesome speculation. Not "Well, nothing happens." speculation.)

Personally, I'd treat it as an acid bath that does aggravated damage, culminating in an explosion as the fury of Malfeas vents itself on the unlucky follower of the Great Traitor. But that's just me.

[Jokasti]

New Ink Monkeys. Vol.39: Cobra Style

[golentan]

New Ink Monkeys. Vol.39: Cobra Style

Looks interesting. I'll have to read in depth tomorrow.

[Mattarias, King.]

I LIKE these Ink Monkey guys! Especially some of those crazier charms, like the one that lets you ride a horse like a motorcycle.

Too bad they don't make spirit charms. Ah well.

[FatR]

I can attest from experience that an unexpected clinch attack,

If you make a real, non-negated unexpected attack, and your opponent isn't instagibbed, you fail at Exalted. So saying that unexpected attacks can wreck someone's day, is like saying that Sun is bright.
That said, most Infernals' PD weakness do suck (due to being actually somewhat likely to ever come up in play, which means that their wielder loses). But Adorjan's one is actually the least likely to trigger, without GM contriving circumstances for it to happen. Exalted combat simply does not include any way of stopping someone from moving in cirsumstances when you cannot just kill them.

[FatR]

That's everything I've been saying about how, well, I may be a newbie, but from my point of view it always seemed that the current form and implementation of Perfect Defenses has been a damn disease for the mechanics designers (in the "eh, they'll just PD it" way that breeds laziness and disregard for decent balance), and that for all the fluff the game tosses at you Exalted is a game of infinitely fragile characters

You're putting the cart before the horse. Exalted IS a game of infinitely fragile characters, due to its authors being too lazy to avoid using the core system once created for street-level supers, and unable to do math as well. PDs are a patch on this, that allows you to actually play without generating new characters after every second or third challenging combat.

Also, what fluff you are talking about? Fans, for some reason, like to talk on the net how Exalted is the game of teh awesome, but actual fluff in the gamebooks and novels is quite low-key, despite pretty colors and big swords. Example characters do something that would seem really out of place in DnD E6 maybe twice there.

[Toptomcat]

If you make a real, non-negated unexpected attack, and your opponent isn't instagibbed, you fail at Exalted. So saying that unexpected attacks can wreck someone's day, is like saying that Sun is bright.
That said, most Infernals' PD weakness do suck (due to being actually somewhat likely to ever come up in play, which means that their wielder loses). But Adorjan's one is actually the least likely to trigger, without GM contriving circumstances for it to happen. Exalted combat simply does not include any way of stopping someone from moving in cirsumstances when you cannot just kill them.

Holden's stated that the intent is that they have to be actually *covering ground*, not merely moving, so attacking a Scourge in a phone booth or in a crowded train or even a fairly small interior space of any sort, like a bathroom, where there's only one or two steps to take, will negate their PD.

[FatR]

Now, don't get me wrong. Perfect Defenses are an essential part of the setting and so must remain in the rules system. Perfect Defenses answer the question "How did the Exalted stop the Primordials from just killing them outright?"

{Scrubbed}

That said, mechanic-wise, PDs are an absolutely necessary patch, without which the entire game becomes unplayably lethal. And that said, this patch only needs to exist because authors never managed, if they even tried, to work out their numbers properly. But as I can see, you've already covered that.

[FatR]

{Scrubbed}

[Toptomcat]

{Scrub the original, scrub the quote}

Neither. He conceded that it required some adjudication and pointed out the 'running circles around someone in a tiny, enclosed space' stunt specifically as something that would not fly in his games, due to failing to meaningfully cover ground in the sense that was intended and making Adrien's Perfect Defense effectively lack a Flaw.
Come, now. Just because we're discussing Infernals doesn't mean we have to get vitriolic.

[golentan]

And anyway, all flaws require some adjudication and judgement calls. Conviction and Compassion, for example. Even unassailable body of water requires it: I.E. what does it mean by cold? Freezing, Sub-zero, or just "danger of exposure?"

[Kyeudo]

*snip*

I was wondering when you'd show up.

I'd like to point out to you that every Charm's name is not something that only exists on a mechanical level. Instead, it is that Charm's actual name in Creation. There are laws in the Realm banning Thrashing Carp Serenade from being used to slow Deliberative buisness and Flood-Of-Victory Prana from being used in Realm casinos and gambling houses. This means that, yes, in the setting they know what a perfect defense is, because what else do they think Heavenly Guardian Defense and Seven Shadows Evasion do?

[Jokasti]

I was wondering when you'd show up.

I'd like to point out to you that every Charm's name is not something that only exists on a mechanical level. Instead, it is that Charm's actual name in Creation. There are laws in the Realm banning Thrashing Carp Serenade from being used to slow Deliberative buisness and Flood-Of-Victory Prana from being used in Realm casinos and gambling houses. This means that, yes, in the setting they know what a perfect defense is, because what else do they think Heavenly Guardian Defense and Seven Shadows Evasion do?

They might think that HGD defends against celestial lions, or gives you the soak/hardness of a celestial lion. Seven Shadows Evasion could have you evade like seven shadows, or evade seven shadows.

[Kyeudo]

They might think that HGD defends against celestial lions, or gives you the soak/hardness of a celestial lion. Seven Shadows Evasion could have you evade like seven shadows, or evade seven shadows.

Let me break my argument down a little more:

Exalts and other supernatural beings in Creation know that each of their individual supernatural tricks is a seperate technique, each with their own name. Exalts familiar with a particular Charm and its name can tell you what the Charm does from hearing its name. A Solar who knows Heavenly Guardian Defense will know that it is a parry that nothing can break through. Solars know they have access to perfect defense Charms in-setting, though they may or may not talk about such techniques as "perfect defenses", depending on your Storyteller.

[Xefas]

Exalts and other supernatural beings in Creation know that each of their individual supernatural tricks is a seperate technique, each with their own name. Exalts familiar with a particular Charm and its name can tell you what the Charm does from hearing its name. A Solar who knows Heavenly Guardian Defense will know that it is a parry that nothing can break through. Solars know they have access to perfect defense Charms in-setting, though they may or may not talk about such techniques as "perfect defenses", depending on your Storyteller.

Yup, this is one of the cool things about Exalted. There's a lot of system-setting transparency. They don't seem to rank permanent Essence 1-10, but it is possible in-setting to tell if your permanent Essence is higher than their permanent Essence. In addition, there are multiple charms that allow you to see motes. Like, actually see them. It would not be out of character in the least for a Twilight to be like "Yeah, I picked up the Seven Shadow Evasion charm when we had those four days off from kicking ass. It takes me 3 motes to use, I can dodge anything, and if I dodge it awesome enough, the cosmos actually refunds me one mote. I don't know why; all I know is that I can see that I have 50 motes, I can see that I spend 3 motes, but sometimes, when I'm doing something really impressive, another mote just pops back into me. Weird, aint it?"

And no fourth walls are broken.

[Rhyvurg]

If they weren't aware of what their charms are and what they do on an individual basis, why would they have such bizzare names? Why would the designers add unnecessary words like "prana" and "mandala" to every other charm, unless that's how the exalted know them? Why make the names so flowery if they're just labels for purely mechanical effects? The game is heavily influenced by anime and manga, mediums notorious for calling your attacks, where everything you do has it's own fancy name. Do you think over in D&D that martial adepts don't know their maneuvers have names? Or wizards and their spells?

[Jokasti]

Let me break my argument down a little more:

Exalts and other supernatural beings in Creation know that each of their individual supernatural tricks is a seperate technique, each with their own name. Exalts familiar with a particular Charm and its name can tell you what the Charm does from hearing its name. A Solar who knows Heavenly Guardian Defense will know that it is a parry that nothing can break through. Solars know they have access to perfect defense Charms in-setting, though they may or may not talk about such techniques as "perfect defenses", depending on your Storyteller.

It was a rhetorical answer to a rhetorical question...

[Kyeudo]

It was a rhetorical answer to a rhetorical question...

The internet doesn't transmit tone well and FatR always makes me annoyed.

[Jokasti]

The internet doesn't transmit tone well and FatR always makes me annoyed.

It's there, you just have to learn how to read it. Besides, FatR is basically just spouting off the basics of his side's view of PD's. I would love to hear his solution. It doesn't take an Iron Chef to taste something wrong with the filet mignon, but it does take one to make a four course meal in an hour based on the ingredient "nutmeg". Of course, there are the challengers...

[golentan]

It's there, you just have to learn how to read it. Besides, FatR is basically just spouting off the basics of his side's view of PD's. I would love to hear his solution. It doesn't take an Iron Chef to taste something wrong with the filet mignon, but it does take one to make a four course meal in an hour based on the ingredient "nutmeg". Of course, there are the challengers...

I think if you take out perfect attacks along with the perfect defenses, and tweak the rules for dodge and parry DVs, and increase availability and effectiveness of ways to soak so that minimum damage actually mattered once in a while it would probably work.

However, that would require careful rebalancing, I am lazy, and PDs work well as the patched on fix that they seem to be intended as. So I really don't care enough.

[Rhyvurg]

I see PDs much the same way I see cell phones, a necessary evil. It would be great if it was easy to pump up your DVs without Charms so they'd have to use an Excellency to have a reasonable chance of landing a hit, or if soak could pull it's weight. Those are the reasons you need PDs to survive. To me, a huge step forward is putting a limit on the number of Charms you can put in a combo, or the maximum number of motes you can spend on a combo, so you have to limit yourself in how much damage you can deal. Perhaps if you could count on soak to keep you alive when someone lands a hit with a perfect attack, and you don't need a perfect defense to survive, just a soak booster. Maybe make health levels more plentiful.

That's part of why I like the new Dawn charms on Ink Monkeys, they make keeping yourself alive without PDs a lot easier. Mostly by making charms innate powers so you can use them more often, to take the game away from just a battle of mote management.

[a_humble_lich]

I'd like to see more health levels, so characters can take several hits before they die. You might need to reduce weapon damage too. But more importantly, I think characters need a lot more dying levels. When exalted lose a fight, the result should be "you go unconscious for a while and then have to heal" instead of "you're dead, make a new character."

[Teln]

I think there shouldn't be so many ways for you to have your attacks simply ignore DVs and soak. It doesn't matter if your soak's in triple digits--if the attack ignores soak, you're in trouble.

Personally, I'd make it so that Charms can only make attacks ignore one of the two DVs, or ignore soak. Now if you find yourself on the recieving end of something truly crazy like a Godspear blast or a detonating soulbreaker orb, thenI'd have absolutely no problem with perfect-or-die. It just shouldn't be available on demand.

[Toptomcat]

Really, the whole 'everyone knows what Heavenly Guardian Defense is' concept is best applied in a First Age/reestablished Deliberative game, and doesn't make a whole lot of sense in a present-day Creation chronicle due to the fact that Solars are a tiny, hunted minority and *nobody* will know what their Charms are named. Only veterans of the Wyld Hunt will even have anything like a detailed idea of what they do.