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2011-01-17, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
That tells fate, as given by the Loom of Fate. The Maidens have another ability called....Samarasa? It's something with S's and A's in it. The difference is that it can't be defied. Not sure if it's possible for someone to get it as an ability, though there is one primordial who supposedly would have it.
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
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2011-01-17, 02:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
No it's a player character concept, not sure how well it'll work in game, but I like the concept. And thanks for the advice in getting divination, it should help (I'll probably refluff some-of it to just plain-old visions though if the ST'll let me).
EDIT: Didn't see the new page
Originally Posted by tavar
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2011-01-17, 03:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
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2011-01-17, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
The primordial you're probably thinking of is Sacheverell. He currently doesn't exist, but he keeps trying to exist, and the demons of Malfeas fight an endless battle to explode any of his bits that start popping up.
His power is that he knows, absolutely, everything that will ever happen, perfectly and unerringly. So, if he were to exist, fate would be set in stone for everyone, including Essence users. They would only be able to do that which Sacheverell has seen. And that would be pretty damn maddening. The ultimate railroading for the entire cosmos (Since the demons of Malfeas seem to be scared of it, I imagine his ability isn't based on the Loom, so it would affect everything?).5e D&D Mythos Classes
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2011-01-17, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
I use black for sarcasm.
Call me Rose, or The Rose Dragon. Rose Dragon is someone else entirely.
If you need me for something, please PM me about it. I am having difficulty keeping track of all my obligations.
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2011-01-17, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
This sounds a lot like the "It's okay Timmy. Nothing's wrong with Buster. He's just...sleeping. Yeah, that's it. And tomorrow we can get you a new Buster. One who isn't sleeping quite so much."
I think that when he's described as "sleeping", it's kind of metaphorical. Like, he's a potentiality (sleeping), and then he might become an actuality (awake).5e D&D Mythos Classes
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2011-01-17, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
No, he literally fell asleep in the past and hasn't woken back up yet.
He was different before he fell asleep, of course. He was a Primordial and had different powers, so it wasn't quite so dangerous...
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2011-01-17, 05:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
All things other than Nirguna have a definite existence in Exalted. Except for non-awesome things.
I use black for sarcasm.
Call me Rose, or The Rose Dragon. Rose Dragon is someone else entirely.
If you need me for something, please PM me about it. I am having difficulty keeping track of all my obligations.
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2011-01-17, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
Or things that are outside of Nirguna's effect, if I read the material right. Man, I'm beginning to see why Graceful Wicked Masques has such a bad reputation.
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
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2011-01-17, 10:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
Not to put too fine a point on it, but... How? Having read through, they get the same unit boost abilities (boost morale, drill, ignore relays, etc.) except: 1) the drill can't exceed 5, 2) they can't boost might to the same extent (army of ghosts: might 2, army of autocthonians with the character I built: 3-4. Equivalent to an army composed entirely of "experienced abyssals)", 3) they have normal formation rules rather than "whatever's most convenient I count as at all times," 4) they summon magnitude (essence) rather than adding a flat +3 to magnitude.
I'm not just counting the war charms, I'm counting a few other things from the book. And many of these powers work best on defense, but still.
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2011-01-17, 11:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
His unit is Hardened Killers. They've got a score of 4 in every relevant attribute and ability. That might is a +2 on some values, which is negated by his better combat values. Even then, it scarcely matters when he's just straight up better than you, with better combat charms.
What did you build the character with? Base gen?
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2011-01-17, 11:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
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2011-01-18, 12:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
Doesn't that mean he died? So wouldn't he be...dead and slowly "reforming" (because we're not allowed to use Rez lingo in Exalted)?
Actually, it does. Fate/Causality/Predestination/Etc only exists within Creation via the Loom and Samsara. And anyone who can use Essence can actually alter their fate depending upon just how powerful their Essence control is. An Essence 1 mortal with Awakened Essence might be able to choose chicken for lunch one day instead of pork, which is what the Loom of Fate said he would do. An Essence 5 Solar can just laugh at his own predetermined death and punch it in the face.
But, the Wyld, the Underworld, Malfeas, and Elsewhere - they aren't bound by the Loom or the Shinma. That's why the Primordials made the Shinma in the first place - to separate the way Creation worked from the way everywhere else worked. That means that, given enough effort, even if the Yozi "should" lose, even if all logic determines that they "should" fail, even if every force in the cosmos is set against them, there is still a tiny, tiny chance that they can screw causality and win anyway.
If Sachaverell lives, and predestines everyone, then the Yozi are bound by that 99.99% chance of just being losers forever. And so is everyone else. Everyone is railroaded forever, and suddenly the Exalted world is just as lame as our own.5e D&D Mythos Classes
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2011-01-18, 12:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 2011-01-18 at 12:14 AM.
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2011-01-18, 12:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
Because it completely and totally screws with the nature of the setting. It's an ability no one but the Maidens and Sacheverell have (in canon, at least). Sacheverell is asleep because he can see everything, and that basically forces him into inaction. The Maidens have limited access related to their purview, and that alone makes them slaves to samsara. They are bound to do whatever they see in samsara, because it's going to happen, and nothing can change that.
That breaks one of the central conceits of Exalted, that you can change everything if you work hard enough. Samsara, though, is inviolate. If samsara says the Unconquered Sun is going to die in the next week, and the PCs save him from the assassination squads on the sixth day of that week, he botches his eating roll the next day and drowns face down in a bowl of soup. There's nothing you can do about it. Though I guess you can technically break samsara. You just have to go redefine how reality works on the most fundamental level there is. Good luck with that.
There's also the whole part where if he wakes up, the world ends. That's kind of bad.Awesome Cyborg Doom Monkey avatar by Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins. Offer up your robo-bananas to him.
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2011-01-18, 12:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
I understand that; I abandoned the "not existing" explanation. Being "redefined", however, is a lot like death. It's a bit like the Star Trek Teleporter problem - you get broken down and then a guy who looks like you shows up elsewhere, made out of the same atoms. Does that other guy have the same string of consciousness as you? Probably not.
And, I would assume most definitely not for Primordials. The First Age Solars bound the Yozi to not be capable of inflicting fetich-suicide on themselves. However, they still haven't commanded their completely free-to-kill-Fetichs Green Sun Princes to do the job, so it must be somehow worse than staying trapping in shame and torment.
Also, I realize that "His sleeping is literal" and "His sleeping is a metaphor for something that is, for all intents and purposes, identical to sleep" is quite the pedantic nitpick, but what else are we supposed to talk about? No one wanted to discuss my Reclamation Voltron idea.5e D&D Mythos Classes
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2011-01-18, 12:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
When Sacheverell wakes up, the ST plays your characters for you.
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2011-01-18, 12:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
Originally Posted by Xefas
The Loom (which is probably what you're thinking of) itself does not apply to the Yozis, but samsara predestination is completely different from Loom predestination. Samsara encompasses everything, and thus is infallible.
If Sachaverell lives, and predestines everyone, then the Yozi are bound by that 99.99% chance of just being losers forever. And so is everyone else. Everyone is railroaded forever, and suddenly the Exalted world is just as lame as our own.
I understand that; I abandoned the "not existing" explanation. Being "redefined", however, is a lot like death. It's a bit like the Star Trek Teleporter problem - you get broken down and then a guy who looks like you shows up elsewhere, made out of the same atoms. Does that other guy have the same string of consciousness as you? Probably not.
And, I would assume most definitely not for Primordials. The First Age Solars bound the Yozi to not be capable of inflicting fetich-suicide on themselves. However, they still haven't commanded their completely free-to-kill-Fetichs Green Sun Princes to do the job, so it must be somehow worse than staying trapping in shame and torment.
Besides, fetich death might not even free the Yozis, depending on how the surrender oaths work.Awesome Cyborg Doom Monkey avatar by Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins. Offer up your robo-bananas to him.
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2011-01-18, 12:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
If I creep into your house in the dead of night and strangle you while you sleep, you probably messed up your grammar.
I'm always extremely careful to hedge myself against absolute statements.
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2011-01-18, 12:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
Actually, it says the exact opposite. Look at the second part of the third paragraph. It's assumed that if you contradict samsara in some way, well what do you know, it turns out that samsara predicted you would contradict the previous prediction of samsara that now turns out to be false.
It also recommends keeping samsara on the DL so you don't have to deal with logic loops like that.
EDIT: Basically, samsara is the script for a movie or a play. If the PCs launch into a song from Repo! during the middle of a performance of King Lear, the script retroactively is rewritten so that it always said that would happen.
This is less of something that happens in-game, and more of just a way for the ST to deal with having an infallible prophecy that the PCs are inevitably going to muck up somehow.Last edited by Mr.Bookworm; 2011-01-18 at 12:53 AM.
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2011-01-18, 01:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
But him being straight up better is relying on solar level cheese and the army as pants mechanic rather than being a better general. Basically "I'm going to kick the snot out of you, the army is secondary to that."
That might is +4 bonus successes on attacks and contested essence effects, uncapped by war. The unit formation bonuses double close combat rating (which with regular soldiers brings it to normal maximum for auto successes, something the abyssal doesn't surpass at equivalent essence with hardened killers), double cover/shield bonuses, get +3 dv vs. ranged, and double/triple their effective magnitude vs foes in close or skirmish formation (further auto successes). All at once.
And it's a more experienced exalt (essence 4 before the really cool stuff kicks in), but normal rules for someone a decade or so into their career.
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2011-01-18, 01:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
You're right, I don't know a lot about the shinma, and I do recall something about the ancient beings of the Wyld being "birthed" by the shinma, now that you mention it. I do have to wonder, however, how Nirakara, whose purpose is to divide Creation from the Wyld, was somehow in existence before the Primordials who created Creation in the first place.
Having deferred to your knowledge, of course, now the question is why is Sacheverell a deal at all? If Samsara really is as ubiquitous as you say, then it downgrades him from this awesome, spooky plot hook to "Meh, why does anyone care? It's not like it does anything."
Actually, yes, yes they do. The Yozis are pretty much Primordials who had a big bucketful of psychological trauma dumped on them (besides the Ebon Dragon, but he cheats), and they are very much recognizable in personality as what they once were. Just very, very twisted.
And as far as the parallel discussion on just how perfect Samsara is in regards to the player characters, I'll just leave this here, with the excerpt: "The Maidens have never seen samsara be wrong. Which is not the same as saying that samsara can't be wrong."5e D&D Mythos Classes
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2011-01-18, 01:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
Nirakara defines shape and form. It's role in dividing Creation and the Wyld came later.
Having deferred to your knowledge, of course, now the question is why is Sacheverell a deal at all? If Samsara really is as ubiquitous as you say, then it downgrades him from this awesome, spooky plot hook to "Meh, why does anyone care? It's not like it does anything."
Not to mention that Sacheverell has some other stuff going on too. If I remember right, when he's awake, he's basically a reality warper. His dreams become real. Though I could be wrong about that.
I think you're simplifying fetich death here quite a bit, though. This isn't just psychological trauma. It's a complete fundamental shift in your very nature. I doubt it has ever been explicitly defined whether a Yozi's exact consciousness carries over or not (especially because it's something that no one in the setting could ever really know), but I'd rather err on the side of horrifying whenever the fate of the Yozi are involved.
I also personally find it far more horrifying to be twisted like the Yozis were. If your mind was completely wiped blank tomorrow, you had new memories installed, and you were set up in a new life that conforms to those memories, would you able to tell? That's very unsettling and sad, but it's not really horrifying like the Yozis are. The Yozis are more akin to being tortured into insanity, having everything you love and cherish killed, and then being locked into a prison cell for the rest of your immortal life. Oh yeah, and they also keep swapping out your internal organs whenever they need a new lung or something.
And as far as the parallel discussion on just how perfect Samsara is in regards to the player characters, I'll just leave this here, with the excerpt: "The Maidens have never seen samsara be wrong. Which is not the same as saying that samsara can't be wrong."Last edited by Mr.Bookworm; 2011-01-18 at 01:35 AM.
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2011-01-18, 01:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
Cool, cool. Learning new things.
Well, at the very least, an almost exact copy of their consciousness seems carries over. Malfeas is pretty much defined in the non-fetich sense by his rage over his loss of what he once was. She Who Lives In Her Name explicitly is similar to what she used to be, she just lost all ability to tolerate anything that didn't fit in her hierarchy. The Ebon Dragon is again a cheating ****, and he only changed physically.5e D&D Mythos Classes
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2011-01-18, 01:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
Personally, I prefer to think of Fetich Death as brain damage: You become literally incapable of thinking in certain ways without lengthy, painful retraining of lost functionality.
That way I leave a path open for my favorite yozis to theoretically get better with counseling AND get the fundamental shifts in the being that lead to the Empyreal Chaos becoming the Demon City and the like.
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2011-01-18, 02:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
The problem is, Yozis are incapable of acting outside of their First Excellency. It's impossible to change the Yozis back into what they once were. The only way to change them at all in any permanent sense is to muck around with their Charm trees or fetich death them again.
Really, the greatest way to make the Yozis get any better is to be a Green Sun Prince and invent Charms. Yozis automatically learn any Charm a GSP adds to their tree, so you can change the nature of the Yozis over time, as long as it sticks within their predefined roles and themes. The example I heard that I liked was with Malfeas. Malfeas is a holy tyrant, but it would not be out of theme for a Green Sun Prince to invent a Charm that works on the concept that a king's subjects are an important part of him, and thus should be treated with proper respect and care for the King's well-being. Add some new Charms to this tree, and bam, you have a Malfeas that is at least a bit kinder then what you started out with. You could probably also do something with Malfeas' mad DDR skills.Awesome Cyborg Doom Monkey avatar by Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins. Offer up your robo-bananas to him.
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2011-01-18, 03:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
How is that different from what I said? I said they were incapable of thinking in certain ways (I.E. can't act outside their Excellency's Parameters), and can get better with counseling. Never said what kind of counseling. Therapy (at least successful therapy) is that which makes you better: no more, no less.
GSPs are/can be a natural component of that, in my mind.
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2011-01-18, 03:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
Avatar of Gnar'tigor - former Star Player of the Hellborn Hooligans Blood Bowl team - by Savannah
Brilliant D&D song from Aussie comedy band Tripod.
If anyone can find a better-quality version of that, let me know.
The Hellborn Hooligans Reborn
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2011-01-18, 03:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course
EDIT: Basically, samsara is the script for a movie or a play. If the PCs launch into a song from Repo! during the middle of a performance of King Lear, the script retroactively is rewritten so that it always said that would happen.
Lessee... Shilo, young Solar. Nathan, possibly a turned Abyssal. Rotti, probably the same. Luigi and Pavi and Amber, likely Infernals. Graverobber Sidereal. Blind Mag... Solar? DB?Recent Homebrew: The Socialite | The Crystalline: Memory Altering Construct Race | Sanguine Hand, a ToB Discipline of blood and cruelty
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Thanks to all my avatar artists, especially to Paisley for my avatar of Vivian, cowardly cryophoenix.
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2011-01-18, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course