That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

[Valamir]

The Ethereal Slayer is so mad because with its stupid mouth, it can't blow bubble gum, and only gets it all over itself.

Haha. I thought pink shreds were pieces of the fabric of space between ethereal-material planes but your theory is certainly the right one.

[NineThePuma]

See? That's crazy. Why would it only have Planeshift 2-day?

[Valamir]

In the designer's mind, the Ethereal Slayers are able to go to another plane and back to ethereal ones just once a day. If you want a more dynamic planar predator, fell free to provide him plane shift at will.

[Valamir]

Famine Spirit



Basically, a Famine Spirit is an obese and much more powerful ghoul. It has been created by the lack of fast foods in fantasy world and it's always in search for something to eat. Famine Spirit eat anything edible except undead but attack other living thing only if there is nothing else to devour. I can not imagine how it could be its pestilential breath...

Speaking of combat, its most dreadful ability is vorpal bite which can decapitate you in one hit. It have aura of pain and other pesky abilities, but, sadly for it, a Famine Spirit can kill you only with a critical hit due to its low damage output. It have good HP and nice fast healing for its putative CR, but quite no armor and no DR. Strangely for MM II, it have no SR.

Challenge Rating: as often, this creature too have an unbalanced Cr. Originally 19 it have to be reduced to 14.

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HP: 208/7.5=27,7
AC: +1 (18)
Special Attacks: aura of pain, vorpal bite (+3)
Special Qualities: create spawn, ethereal jaunt, fast healing 10, scent, see invisibility, undead traits (+10)
No bonus feat but add blind-fight.
CR: 42/3=14

[Dumbledore lives]

I was actually planning to restart this thread sometime recently, but it looks like Valamir has done a good job of that himself. Looks like coming up we got the Fiend Wyrm, which is a weird fricking earthworm.

[Valamir]

Hi Dumbledore, I appreciated your past posts. We should find a way to divide the work since we are not even halfway...

[Valamir]

Felldrake



Not much to say about this little sons of Bahamut: they have been created to help elves to fight demons. Actually, not very powerful demons since these drakes have little in common with the great powers of their dad.

Felldrakes are impulsive attackers and, if they are in many, always try to encircle the foe. Only Horned ones seems dangerous due to their mighty charge which can hit you for 10 to 30 damage.

Challenge Rating: developers CR should be right this time. Strictly applying the formula Crested and Horned should have CR 2 and 4; but the first one is comparable with standard wolf or ghoul, the second one with dire wolf. My final CR is exactly as the original: 1, 2, 3.

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Crested
HP: 17/4.5=4
AC: +1 (15)
Special Qualities: scent, dragon traits (normally +3)
No bonus feat
CR: 8/3=2,6 but ad hoc 1

Spitting
HP: 22/4.5=5
AC: +1 (16)
Special qualities: dragon traits (+2)
No bonus feat but add the dreadful alertness
CR: 8/3=2,6

Horned
HP: 34/4.5=7,5
AC: +1 (17)
Special Attack: charge (+1)
Special qualities: dragon traits (+2)
No bonus feat
CR: 11.5/3=4, ad hoc 3

[Dumbledore lives]

Fiendwurm



That is in fact the correct spelling for this worm, do not ask why they spelled it like that, no one knows. So here we have a monster which is tied for the highest CR in the monster manual, and it is a big ass worm. Modified by some vague demonic powers it posses a portal to the abyss in its stomach and it is far from happy about it, so it takes out its anger on the nearest creature.

In terms of combat is has one attack, a decent bite though at the level it is supposed to be fought at, that is low epic, it is not very powerful at all, a freedom of movement will allow you to ignore the grapple which is good because being swallowed and portaled to the abyss is not a pleasant proposition when fighting something like this. One of the most dangerous things I see is the ability to summon 1d4 Jovacs, I don't know if you remember but they are the little buggers that reflect damage, and it can't be negated, meaning any unwary party member could easily put an end to a squishier member of the party.

Challenge Rating: This thing has a bases CR of 28, this is far beyond a level where a party could reasonably take it out, given its only really dangerous thing is sending people to the Abyss, which is just a quick plane shift to get back at high levels. With that load of HP it comes out to CR 23, but I think it's more reasonable at CR 20, facing maybe a level 15 or 16 party as a monster that has been rampaging through the country side.

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HP: 348/6 = 58 (24 HD)
AC: +3 (28)
Special Attacks: +4 (Improved Grab, Swallow Whole, Death Rift, Demonic Belch)
Special Qualities: +5.5 (Acidic Hide, Dr 15/-, Acid immunity, Senses)
CR: 70.5/3 = 23.5

[Omeganaut]

The spelling of that last monster probably harkens back to Germanic origins of similar giant monster, although the Germanic monsters were more like dragons.

[Rossebay]

Blood Ape: When it grows, it gains more hit dice. That's the source of its increased challenge rating.

[Valamir]

I was waiting for any kind of comment before continuing with Fiendwurm, but Dumbledore did it.

[Valamir]

And...for joy of Canarr...

Dragon, Gem



While Dumbledore continues with the other monster (or I hope so ), I've decided to go back to Dragons because I skipped them. I'm not going to kill myself analyzing each of the 60 dragons: I will compare them with those of MMI, assuming that those are balanced. So, I took both my threadbare Manuale dei Mostri I and my Monster Manual II and now the work begins. I'll write all in one post which I'll edit little by little. (completed 8/03).



As for giants and other kinds of monsters, WotC (pardon the ignorance ) D&D developers like to create new subcategory of existing creature: dragons are among the most abused. This category of flying reptiles are all neutral and although they are not native of Inner Planes they live primarily on these. Gem Dragons are like standard metallic or chromatic ones plus minor differences: they can eat elemental matter and have Planar Travel ability.



In combat, Gem Dragons act as any other Dragons with two qualities more that we must consider. First, they have Planar Travel which helps a lot in escaping or to makes traps especially at low level. Second, they have peculiar Breath Weapons that are more difficult to defend against. Amethysts use force, Crystals light, Emeralds and Sapphires sonic and Topaz ones have a special cone of dehydration. Have fun.



Challenge Ratings:
Starting with Amethyst Dragons, they have CR exactly like Blue ones; with update booklet's adjustment their CR progression is similar with Red ones instead. However, they have exactly the same hp, size, attack bonus, saves, DC, SR and so on of Blue ones. The only things more are: +2 Dex and Planar Travel. I think their updated CR is right.
Note: you should correct Wyrm's hp to 522.

Move to the next: Crystal's updated Cr perfectly match with Green Dragons Cr. Both types have same size, hp, saves, DC, SR, AC and so on. Differences: Green Great Wyrm have charisma 22 while Crystal 21 which implies a +1 for GGW DCs; juvenile and young adult Crystals Dragons don't cast sorcerer spells; Planar Travel and a better Breath Weapon in favor of Crystals. In my opinion, Crystal Dragons are slightly stronger than Green ones but I don't think that's enough for a higher Cr.

Very simply, Emerald Dragons have the same characteristics of Bronze Dragons except for Breath Weapon, spell-like abilities and Planar Travel. Although Planar Travel is a very useful tool, when PCs get Dimensional anchor its benefit is very small. Concluding, updated Emerald Dragon's CR is adequate.

Well, Sapphire Dragons have the same characteristics of Copper ones except for a much higher Dex (and save, AC, initiative) and Breath Weapons; even the spell-like abilities are similar. As far as i know, Sapphire ones have the best Dex among all pure dragons. So, if you think that a little better AC and Planar Travel deserve an higher CR you can increase their of one more. However, my choice is to use CR progression of Bronze Dragons even for this kind.

At last, Topaz Dragons. These kind has the same characteristics and CR of Silver Dragons, except, of course, for some spell-like abilities, Breath Weapon and Planar Travel. As I have said about Emerald Dragons, Topaz's updated CR is adequate despite minor differences with Silver ones.



In conclusion, the updated CR of Gem Dragons should be right except for Sapphire ones. Use CR's progression of the Update Booklet or Draconomicon for Amethyst, Crystal, Emerald and Topaz; use Bronze Dragons's CR for Sapphire.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

As for giants and other kinds of monsters, WotC developers like to create new subcategory of existing creature: dragons are among the most abused. This category of flying reptiles are all neutral and although they are not native of Inner Planes they live primarily on these. Gem Dragons are like standard metallic or chromatic ones plus minor differences: they can eat elemental matter and have Planar Travel ability.

Just for reference, gem dragons aren't a WotC creation. They showed up in 1e in one of the double-digit Dragon issues and in 2e in the Monstrous Manual. The comment on WotC's developer obsession with certain creature categories is spot-on, though.

[Myou]

Just for reference, gem dragons aren't a WotC creation. They showed up in 1e in one of the double-digit Dragon issues and in 2e in the Monstrous Manual. The comment on WotC's developer obsession with certain creature categories is spot-on, though.

They just love the letter D. They'd make a monster manual that was just one long D section if they could.

[Flickerdart]

Dire Dino-Dragon Demon Devils?

[Dumbledore lives]

Fihyr


Here's Johnny. A bulbous brain like thing that has masses of tentacles and far too many mouths, I wonder what creature type it is. Like many aberrations these guys are not that good in a physical fight. Unlike many others they don't really have special abilities of note, and are in fact just awful, really. These guys are apparently the remnants of peoples nightmares, when the **** goes down these guys just pop up spontaneously, and I guess I can see them killing commoners, but little else. Kind of a bad situation really, you're already in a tight spot then the general populace starts being killed by these things thus making more in an awful cycle.

So what do they have in terms of combat, well the basic ones have frightful presence, and a bite which deals an average of 1 damage, but 2 if they roll well. At least the bite has +2 to hit, those are the kinds of numbers you expect on a CR 1 monster, oh what's that, it's CR 3, oh. The other one has a little oddity in conversion, in that it has a decent spell like in terms of something called emotion control, but I can't for the life of me find what it is, and it is not mentioned at all in the update, so I'll ignore it for now. Otherwise it'll be invisible most of the time, so can avoid combat I guess, not really an exciting foe.

Challenge Rating: The lesser one was statted at 3, and with a decent HP it might be, albeit a quite low one, but with no real decent method of attack it's not going to be doing much at all. In the end it comes out to CR 2, that is devaluing the SR because it is 10, which is not good even at that level, and the vulnerability to sunlight means it'll die naturally extremely easily, and anyone with knowledge checks could easily abuse it.

Now the greater one is something unique, because like I said above for its CR it sucks so much, it would be less than a speed bump. The SR is 18 for an original CR 15 creature, how do they work that out. Without the Control Emotions spell it works out to a new CR 6, and is about fair at that, with minimal damage output. At worst you will have quite a few fleeing to its frightful presence, but once they get over that it'll be a big load of hit points that has a few decent attacks, doing maybe 28 damage on a full attack. The SR at that level will matter a little as well, in that the check would actually have to be made.

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Lesser: HP: 18/4.5= 4
AC: +1 (18)
Special Attacks: +1 (Frightful Presence)
Special Qualities: +0 (Vulnerable to Sunlight, SR 10)
CR: 6/3 = 2

Greater: HP: 88/6 = 14.7
Ac: +1 (19)
Special Attacks: +1 (Frightful Presence)
Special Qualities: +1.5 (Invisibility, SR 18)
CR: 18.3/3 = 6.1

[SilverLeaf167]

I guess it kind of makes sense that there would be some monsters that are a commoner's worst nightmare and a potential epidemic, but just a pushover for any competent combatant.
That doesn't make the CR mistakes any less horrendous. Particularly the greater one... seriously, how often is the actual CR just a little over one-third of the assigned one?

EDIT: Also, is it just me, or do most D&D-monsters' tentacles have the same color scheme?

[Valamir]

Emotion control reply the spell Emotion (something); in the case of Fihyr only despair, fear or hate. However, in 3.5 update Emotion (fear) and Emotion (hate) have been deleted and Emotion (despair) have been changed in Crushing Despair.
So, we can choose or to give them only Crushing Despair or to add Fear and/or something to replace hate.

[NineThePuma]

What did "Hate" make it do?

Maybe replace it with "Rage" spell?

[Valamir]

What did "Hate" make it do?

Maybe replace it with "Rage" spell?

From PHB 3.0:

Emotion (hate)The enchanted creatures react more negatively toward others. Their attitude on the Influencing NPCAttitude Table (see NPC Attitudes in the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide) shifts to the next less favorable reaction (helpful to friendly, friendly to indifferent, indifferent to
unfriendly, or unfriendly to hostile). Emotion (hate) dispels emotion (friendship).

It's useless in combat and very different from Rage.

[NineThePuma]

Yeah, I'm going to just shrug and ignore it then. Maybe just give it an ability that replaces it, but not sure what.

[Dumbledore lives]

Firbolg


So now we have a particularly agile giant, given its ability to spring attack. It looks like a big ass human, but the description is careful to note that its skin is a 'fleshy pink color'. They live fairly reclusive lives, but could be interesting encounters up in the mountains somewhere, coming upon a heavily fortified city where the party might have to pass through. They can also technically be player characters, at an ECL of +18, so you could get like 2 whole levels of fighter in there. I guess it's not as bad as the ocean strider.

In terms of combat they have some really random spell-likes including alter self and feeblemind, with no real fluff explanation for them. They even have detect magic, but it's once per day, as are all their spell-likes, so I don't see them really being used. They also have trample and fast healing, and for some of these monsters I swear the dart board method must have been used to decide abilities, because they are really just kind of slapped on. Also deflect arrows is one of their feats, I really don't understand some of these decisions.

Challenge Rating: Initially sitting at a CR 12, and that looks about right just eyeballing it. Turns out it's only about a CR 11, but there's not a huge difference, it's a decent challenge at that, so whatever.

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HP: 136/5.5 = 24.7
AC: +3 (25)
Special Attacks: +3 (Trample, Spell-likes, Rock Throwing)
Special Qualities: +2 (Rock Catching, Fast Healing 3)
CR: 10.9

Sorry for the short update I've got a bit of stuff to do, I will try to do a longer one within the week.

[Canarr]

And...for joy of Cnarr...

Thanks for considering my joy

And thanks as well to Dumbledore; this thread is one of my favorites.

[Valamir]

I've finished the post about Gem Dragons. From now, I'll do some monster's analysis from time to time to share the burden with Dumbledore. Sooner or later, we must find ways to update the index on LOTRfan's opening post. Maybe an administrator can help us...

[No brains]

... Sooner or later, we must find ways to update the index on LOTRfan's opening post. Maybe an administrator can help us...

Agreed. If the number of people asking to have something done makes a difference, I too would like to see a handy index in the first post.

[Dumbledore lives]

Fire bat


There's not to much to say really, the name is fairly self descriptive, it's a bat made of fire. It has quite interesting reproduction, with a 25% chance to split in two after feeding. Now it says the fellow creatures from the elemental plane of fire keep it in check, but it has regeneration which is only penetrated by cold, so I'm not sure if there is really much they could do about it, given they need to cold to put them down for good, and fire beings don't really use cold so yeah.

In combat these guys could be pathetically easy with planning, since Fire Resistance 5 essentially negates all their attacks, but it could be really difficult to put down because cold effects are actually not that frequent at early levels. It seems like these guys will just be annoying to put down, in that the only decent spell at that level would be lesser orb of cold, though I guess chill touch would not actually be useless in this situation, that's a surprise. Though actually given the fluff it looks like it'll flit in, deal 6 damage, and then fly away, huh.

Challenge Rating: It starts out at CR 3, fairly reasonable, but with a decent number of abilities it becomes an alright CR 4 threat, if only because he has a very specific thing that is needed to put him down forever.

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HP: 21/5 = 4
AC: +1 (16)
Special Attacks: +3 (Attach, Burn, Devour)
Special Qualities: +4 (Regeneration, Fire subtype, Elemental traits)
CR: 12/3 = 4

Flesh Jelly


Man that thing looks worse than blood pudding. This thing is apparently found in tropical regions, an odd choice but I guess they're fairly prosperous in terms of things to splorch up. There's not much to it really, it's a disgusting mass of flesh that runs over people, making awful noises, and awful stenches.

In terms of combat its basic routine goes horrid stench, possibly nauseating pretty much anyone under 10 HD, engulf, then absorb leaving nothing on a failed fort save. I can see this as a possible TPK if the party doesn't output enough damage in the short time before they are all engulfed, and have to contend with a gargantuan creature's grapple check. Of course a FoM cast earlier makes this basically moot, so again preparation renders what might have been a difficult encounter incredibly easy.

Challenge Rating: Beginning at CR 19 mostly due to its load of health, which was lowered in the 3.5 update so it comes out to a much lower 14. So yeah the lowered HP really hurt it, but also the nauseating stench will do nothing to a party that would be facing it, though I guess minions might be affected. Anyway it'll be moderately challenging to actually do enough damage at maybe level 12, so that's probably the sweet spot.

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HP: 207/6 = 34.5
AC: -1 (4)
Special Attacks: +3 (Engulf, Absorb, Disease)
Special Qualities: +4 (Ooze traits, Stench)
CR: 13.5

[Valamir]

Fomorian



Well, another giant...a huge one. This revolting being, in addition to eat humanoid as many other giants, has several deformities that give him a nightmarish feature. Look for yourself! Luckily, Fomorians need to eat less than their size suggests. These monsters are somehow related with Irish mythology (Fomorian or Fomori should be a kind of titan) but I know quite nothing about Celtic myths; if someone wants to share is knowledge with us, he will be welcome.

In combat Fomorians hit as hard as they can: that's enough to describe their tactics. Unlike most popular giants, Fomorians don't catch or throw rocks! DR and fast healing help them to survive in fight. Note that in 3.5 a huge heavy flail deals 4d6 damage instead of 2d8; however, in my opinion, a 4 meters trunks should hit a bit harder...

Challenge Rating: CR 11 is right. Be noted that even update booklet missed a feat.

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HP: 157/5.5=28
AC: +2 (21)
Special Attack: trample (+1)
Special Qualities: fast healing, DR, scent (+3)
No bonus feat but add great cleave, track and one more of your choice.
CR: 34/11=11,3

[Dumbledore lives]

Forest Sloth


Some things I will never understand. It says "this creature is not the slow moving beast its name implies." Then why did you name it that way? It's basically a primate crossed with a badger, so they went with sloth. I guess it has the same number of claws as a three-toed sloth, but that's pretty much where the similarities ends. Also, it has a taste for halfling flesh, so I believe people are legally obliged to say FIND THE HALFLINGS when they send one out.

In terms of combat it's a fairly generic bruiser, though it has brachiation for one of its movement methods, a word which is not recognized by firefox. From what I understand is monkeys swinging around on trees. It also has a swallow whole that only works on small or smaller creatures, so depending on party composition it could be completely pointless, yay!

Challenge Rating: Sitting now at a CR 11, it seems a bit much, and I never want to send a generic truck of hit points and damage at a party that high level. With the adjusted HP from the update to type it becomes a low CR 10, which might work against a party of level 7ish, so it's actually a good bruiser who takes a while to bring down.

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HP: 133/5.5 = 24.2
AC: +2 (21)
Special Attacks: +2 (Improved Grab, Swallow Whole)
Special Qualities: +1 (Poison Immunity, Darkvision)
CR: 9.7

Frost Salamander


There is really not much to say about this guy, he's one of those big salamanders, but he's frost instead of fire. He doesn't even like spit ice balls or anything, he is just very cold. Interestingly in the 3.5 update it was given an LA of +3, so if you ever wanted to play a salamander in a level 15 game, well, you can. The update leaves out the DR so I'm assuming it just disappeared, like that one sock.

In terms of combat its only unique ability is a cold aura, so standing near to it could be dangerous. I thought it could actually be a decent challenge with a five attack full attack, but looking again it has 11 strength, so it's not going to be doing any damage. Burn it with fire and be done, it's not going to hurt you much anyway.

Challenge Rating: It stands at CR 7, and with 12 HD you'd be expecting more, but with its highest stat at 15 dex it really is just pathetic, comes out to a low CR 6.

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HP: 78/5.5 = 14.2
AC: +1 (17)
Special Attacks: +1 (Cold Aura)
Special Qualities: +1 (Cold subtype, DR 10/Magic)
CR: 5.7

Galeb Duhr


Hey you can play one of these as well, at only ECL 13. It looks like these guys have been around forever, since the 1st edition. They are to mountains what Trents are to forests, and defend their homes with as much passion as a sentient piece of rock can muster. To me it seems fundamentally sad, and apparently this is echoed throughout the songs it sings occasionally, hell in the update it even has ranks in perform(sing).

In terms of combat it has some spell likes, but they don't seem too applicable in terms of combat, however he does have a CL 20 animate objects, so could make any number of gargantuan stone objects if he had the materials, so if ever he fights he shouldn't be alone. Like the frost salamander his normal attacks are pathetic, dealing 1d6+1. That's nod damage at any level but 1, and even then it's pretty sad.

Challenge Rating: Well this lot all seems to be a bit overestimated, he comes out to a decent CR 8, as opposed to his original 9.

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HP: 76/5 = 15.2
AC: +2 (22)
Special Attacks: +2 (Spell likes)
Special Qualities: +4.5 (SR, DR 10/Magic, Elemental traits, Tremorsense)
CR: 7.9

[hamishspence]

Some things I will never understand. It says "this creature is not the slow moving beast its name implies." Then why did you name it that way?

Real prehistoric members of the sloth family varied greatly in size and speed.
I'm guessing here they figured it wasn't necessary to use a scientific name- or, it was a made up version partaking of the modern sloth's brachiation but the size and speed of some prehistoric species.

the later Fiend Folio, however, did, when including prehistoric sloth species, choose to make use of the scientific name- Megatherium, rather than inventing a common name.

[Doug Lampert]

I guess it kind of makes sense that there would be some monsters that are a commoner's worst nightmare and a potential epidemic, but just a pushover for any competent combatant.
That doesn't make the CR mistakes any less horrendous. Particularly the greater one... seriously, how often is the actual CR just a little over one-third of the assigned one?

EDIT: Also, is it just me, or do most D&D-monsters' tentacles have the same color scheme?

18 vs. 6 in CR math isn't just off by a factor of three, at CR 2+ the scale is exponential with every 2 levels being double in power.

You need to look at the absolute differences, the ratio is meaningless. Being off by 9 CR means you are off the scale. Put a creature where they're off by 9 up against a party and the creature is either a TPK waiting to happen (totally overwhelming the party) or it is a total walkover that shouldn't even be considered worth XP at all because it's so weak and yet being treated as a real encounter.

Basically off by 2 is bad, off by 4 is very bad, off by 6+ is catastrophically bad. This thing is off by 12!

They're off by approximately a factor of 64 in power. These things shouldn't be worth XP to people who the book says they should face.