That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

[Vknight]

But it still annoys a gorup, not Crab levels but it still does.

[LOTRfan]

It seems I have been misinformed, then. According to a friend, the Stormwrack crab was a redone version of the web enhancement crab. Its cool that they made several size categories, though.

[LOTRfan]

Ash Rat

Ash rats are magical beasts that look like flaming rats. As to be expected, they have the fire subtype. A little underwhelming. Still, they are supposed to be the menace of society, little pests that rest in huge fires. They are actually attracted to flame, and gain nourishment from it. Interesting. They are covered in soot, and are capable of spitting gouts of flames at targets. Okay, given that, I can see why they might be considered a threat.

Challenge Rating? The CR for this creature is 1. After doing the math, the CR is 2. What?

But its CR is, in fact, 2. It has one Hit Die. Right there, this is giving me problems. Over at the Homebrew section, Debihuman has a philosophy when it comes to monsters, and it is something like this (paraphrased): “When the CR is higher than the creature’s HD, something has gone horribly wrong in the monster’s creation.”

Don’t get me wrong, I like a lot of cool powers, but the creator gave it a little too much. An immunity, two special attacks and a special defense, along with a way of healing itself. Once again, cool monster, but I think this was the lopsidedness Runestar warned me about. Honestly, if you want this guy to be a true CR 2 creature, I’d give it an extra Hit Die or two. Otherwise, you might as well leave it at CR, because it will be slaughtered just like a CR 1 creature. It's a shame, too, 'cause the powers were sort of cool.

Spoiler

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5 hp divided by 4.5 (1 HD): 1.1 (about 1)
Armor Class: 16 (+1)
Special Attacks: Flame spit, heat (+2)
Special Qualities: Immunity to fire, vulnerability to cold, fire heal, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, smokey hide (+3)
Bonus Feats: None (+0)
7 divided by 3: 2.33
End Result: CR 2 monster (what?)

Also, in my opinion, this is a cooler picture of an Ash Rat:



Asperi

So, now we go from a fire type magical beast to its opposite, a cold type magical beast. The Asperi appears to be a beautiful horse, but it is quickly revealed to be more than that when it flies over the heads of PCs. See, Asperis use the wind to lift themselves into the air, and can magically sustain flight. As such, they fly better over very windy areas, like the cold mountains they make their homes in.

Evidently, the Asperis are prone to live in herds, like how the wild horses of the American west used to. They are mortal enemies with Griffons and Hippogriffs, who they kill on sight. Sounds like a nice bunch, eh? They are friendly towards Pegasi, though. Evidently, the more HD an Asperi has, the more glittery and expensive its hide is, so Asperis with 5 or more HD are rare.

On the combat side of things, it seems that the Asperi are mainly defensive (unlike the weak but offensive Ash Rats). They generally fly, leaving them out of range from melee brutes, and get a supernatural +2 bonus against projectile weapons. Pretty nifty, considering this bonus is shared with anyone who rides the Asperi. It also keeps its Dexterity bonus when flatfooted, a useful skill. Telepathy allows them to coordinate attacks with their allies.

I have to say, the one thing I hate about the Asperi is that it is labeled as “Always neutral good.” I hate these kinds of monsters. At least Outsiders make sense, as they are made up of pure good/evil/law/chaos/whatever, but why magical beasts? Argh!

Challenge Rating? Currently, they are listed as 4. Let’s test that out. After doing the math, that is correct (a little on the strong side, but still a solid CR 4).

As Mounts: Although they cost roughly 9,000 gp (that includes training), they are definitely worthwhile mounts. Evidently the wind can carry as much weight as it likes, because the Asperi can use this power to fly with medium or even heavy loads.

Spoiler

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30 divided by 4.5 (4 HD): 6.66 (about 7)
Armor Class: 13 (+0)
Special Attacks: None (+0)
Special Qualities: Immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire, darkvision 60 ft., dodge arrows, featherfall, lowlight vision, ride the wind, telepathy, uncanny dodge, wind immunity(+6)
13 divided by 3: 4.33 (about 4)
End Result: CR 4 monster

Coming Next Friday: Automatons!

[Safety Sword]

If no one has invested in Swim, only the most evil of DMs would even think about using that monster. Which means I would totally use it....

Colour me evil :P

Third level party. All dead. I giggled as it happened too.

Luckily we are all friends

[Axolotl]

Was it the Monster Maunal 2 that had the monster that had Disjunction at will? Because that's real cruelty.

[LOTRfan]

Yes, the Adamantine Horror. They will be arriving in a couple weeks, or so.

Colour me evil :P

Third level party. All dead. I giggled as it happened too.

Luckily we are all friends

It's just so much fun, killing PCs.

[Vknight]

Keep it up LOTRfan these are well done.

[LOTRfan]

Thank you.

I cannot wait until Friday. Automatons are so much cooler than Golems.

[flabort]

While I'm not disagreeing with debihuman's philosophy, what's wrong with HD<CR?
I can see that if the players can hit it, it's guaranteed to be dead, but if the characters can't reach it to hit it, while it whittles it down, it deserves HD<CR, right? Especially when fighting several of them at once, and that's what you'd do to throw those guys against a party. Ash rats sound like team, herd or swarm animals. attracted to each other's heat, and all.

[LOTRfan]

I think that it is to avoid the glass cannon effect, something I personally agree with. I see your point, and respect your opinion, but I think (especially at lower levels) when the monster has less hit points than a character, they tend to die in the first round. And while the large amounts of creatures could compensate for that, that theoretically inflates the CR so that they get more XP for a relatively easy encounter.

[flabort]

:smallthoughtfull: Yeah, that makes sense. Even when they...? Oh, nevermind. You, of course, present the better argument. I see now why DMs don't often send players against groups of monsters. Thanks.

You know, :smallthoughtfull: really should be a smily on the boards. currently we only have:smallannoyed:, or .
Which is annoying.

[LOTRfan]

I mean, don't get me wrong, lots of monsters are fun (especially at higher levels with monsters only a level or two lower CR-wise), as long as it doesn't end up like the 32 1st level Orc example in the Player's Handbook (or is it the DMG? )

[Runestar]

While I'm not disagreeing with debihuman's philosophy, what's wrong with HD<CR?

It makes them far too fragile. All the special abilities in the world amount to squat when you die to a magic missile in the first round.

Ask yourself, is a drow wizard (cr2) supposed to be a fair fight against 4 2nd lv PCs? Common sense says no.

I can see that if the players can hit it, it's guaranteed to be dead, but if the characters can't reach it to hit it, while it whittles it down, it deserves HD<CR

The ash rat's range attack is just 10-ft long. If it can hit the PCs, the PCs can surely hit it, be it with ranged weapons or the fighter charging.

However, I feel the ash rat's cr is best left at 1. It seems overdesigned, but at the end of the day, you are just getting a 6hp rat which 10-ft range attack for 1d4 fire damage, blur and fire immunity. This doesn't really make it much stronger than your average dire rat (cr1/3), and at higher lvs, its fire breath becomes less of a threat.

I suppose you could set up the terrain to take advantage of its fire immunity/healing while harrying the PCs, but that's another factor, IMO.

[LOTRfan]

Like you said, they can be rather lopsided.

All those points are true. I'll add that to the Ash Rat.

[Dead_Jester]

The only resonble time that HD can be under the CR is if the monster is a glass cannon based on a strong chassis (like outsider), or if the monster can ignore most attacks. In those cases, it is fine, as long as it keeps decent saves (probably by using really big ability scores, but there monster, so it doesn't really matter much).

And as for the massing of low CR monsters, I think it is really a matter of play style. A group of low CR enemies used stupidly will be destroyed, but stuff like Tucker's Kobolds are the proof that, as players, you should still be afraid when the DM sends hordes of low level stuff your way.

[LOTRfan]

Oh, god, tucker's kobolds!

To be fair, though, its hard to compare a group of cunning humanoids to a pack of magic rats of animal intelligence. I could agree with you when we get to moon rats much later into the book, though.

[flabort]

You can still play ashrats smarter than 'attack and die'. They are attracted to fires, right? why? Defense from exterminators!
Try to get the fighter to extinguish the fire in the famous inn... While the wizard is occupied preparing his spells, the cleric right with him, and the rogues' are chumming it up with the local nobility and scum.
Without magical support, trying to hit an ashrat without being burned by environmental hazards (I think they where meant to be played with CR from environment) would be a very difficult thing. Actually, played as they would really behave, in almost ANY situation, especially in their natural environment of burning buildings, the only way to get them would be magic. Swordsmen would end up crispied, arrows would suffer the same fate, mounts would run in panic. Only the magicians and clerics would be able to hit the darned things.
So tucker's kobolds is not a completely invalid comment with these guys, even with their animal intelligence.

[LOTRfan]

All valid points. Now I'll have to try that encounter nagainst my players, thanks for the ideas.

[Runestar]

You can still play ashrats smarter than 'attack and die'. They are attracted to fires, right? why? Defense from exterminators!

I think that would entail an ad-hoc xp bonus for favourable terrain. I should not have to go out of my way to customize the battleground to the ashrat's advantage just so it can prove a decent challenge to the party.

Heck, I can simulate an ashrat for just cr1/4 (housecat with soulmelds via flaws, netting 10-ft flight, 1d6 ranged touch attack and a cr1 familiar).

[Ionizer]

When you get to Automatons next week, it might be worthwhile to note that, due to a change in the construct type from 3.0 to 3.5, they should each have 20 more HP than as written. The MMII 3.5 update thingy says this makes them both CR 4 creatures, instead of CR3. I know you're going through as it's written in the book, but this is such a simple change (and the change in CR is kind of important) that you may want to at least mention it.

By the way, it's nice reading through this so far. I just wish you'd update it a little more often. Maybe add a Tuesday entry into the rotation?

[LOTRfan]

How about Monday-Wednesday-Friday?

I plan on mentioning the change (it shall be noted in red, like how I changed the Abeil damage reduction to DR 5/magic).

[ZombyWoof]

Bonus Monster: That Damn Crab
Okay, boredom has brought the next CR evaluation a little early. To keep with the schedule, I will not be posting another Monster Manual II monster (that will be every Friday), but occasionally I may go over another ridiculously over-CRed or under-CRed creature from other sources. Specifically, today will be the infamous CR 3 killing machine, That Damned Crab (a.k.a. the Monstrous Crab).

So, we start off with a crab. Vermin. Doesn't sound too bad, right? It's large. Still, no big deal. 7 HD.... Its still possible to defeat....

Yeah? How about killer claws that always applies 1.5 its strength modifier to damage, has improved grab, and can constrict every round? I ask you, fellow playgrounders, does that sound so bad? No, it doesn't. I mean, any party above level 7 or so could kill that thing in no problem, right? But wait, I forgot to add one more thing; it's listed as CR 3.

What????

After doing the math, it should have been CR 6. WotC gave it one half the CR it deserved. Remember folks, don't send this monstrosity against your poor 3rd level adventurers. Let them gain a level or two first, okay? For sanity's sake?

Spoiler

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66 divided by 4.5: 14.66 (about 15)
Armor Class: 19 (+1)
Special Attacks: Constrict, Improved Grab, Powerful Claws (+3)
Special Qualities: Amphibious, Darkvision 60 ft., Vermin Traits (+0)
Bonus Feats: None (+0)
19 divided by 3: 6.3 (about 6)
End Result: CR 6 monster

The only thing: Why on earth are "Vermin Traits" +0? Immunity to Mind-Effecting and 60ft darkvision should be at least +2 :P

[LOTRfan]

But mindlessness is a weakness, which results as a -1.

[ZombyWoof]

I disagree that mindless is a weakness. It's a huge buff because it turns off an entire school of magic :P Two, depending on how you read Illusion.

[LOTRfan]

Yes, but it eliminates the ability to gain skills and feats.

If you consider it worthy of +1, though, that changes the CR to 7.

[ZombyWoof]

Most skills aren't all that helpful in combat though, and aren't monster feats usually grouped with abilities?

[LOTRfan]

Personally, I think that the loss of feats is worth -1.

But, if you believe it to still be +1:

20 divided by 3: 6.66 (about 7)
End Result: The Monstrous Crab is CR 7, instead of CR 6.

[ZombyWoof]

Well if we look at it by the rules, immunity is a +2, so if you give it -1 for feats then +2 for immunity... but it's your thread ;-)

[LOTRfan]

... that is correct, immunities are +2. I'll change the math in the actual post right now.

I did say that we would all discuss and decide on the CRs together, after all.

[LOTRfan]

Automatons

Move over Golems, there is a new artificial fantasy monster on the block. The automatons are similar to Golems superficially, but there are a few minor details (mostly fluff) that make them different. Before I start, let me say that I love these guys. It’s not for any mechanical reasons (these guys are actually worse than Golems in that regard), but rather because of the details the writers went into to differentiate them from their Golem cousins.

What is the difference, you say? We all know that Golems are like animated statues made out of a single type of material. They are powered by elemental spirits (usually an earth elemental, but fire was also mentioned a few times in some golem entries). And Automatons? They actually have interior parts that keep them moving, which are powered by energy from the Plane of Shadow. Minor difference, but it made me happy. It really makes the world more realistic, to have wizards create monsters from various powersources. So, there are many variants for the same idea.

Anyways, onto the monsters themselves: the Automatons come in two types: Pulverizers, and Hammerers. Pulverizers are nasty little buggers that have two drills for arms. Originally intended to be used as miners, this creature has blindsight and a sonic screech to help it traverse its favored terrain. Walking upon four legs for extra stability, these medium creatures will make short work of stone with its spiked drills and the sonic boom generated from the hole where its head should be. What confuses me is the fact that the fluff describes them as worker units, but the image has their drills covered in blood. Perhaps some people use them for darker purposes? That can be an interesting adventure hook:

“All the machines in the local mine have turned against their owners in a gory rebellion. Being mindless, they couldn’t have done this on their own. Who planned and carried out this bloody conflict?”

The Hammerer is another automaton, this one actually designed for heavy combat. Supposedly made from modified heavy construction units, the Hammerer is meant to pound any creature on the battlefield into red mist. Their days as old construction/heavy lifting units is still evident: one of their arms is a colossal hammer, and the other is a pincher that can carry a lot of weight.

One thing to remember when facing off against these guys: 3.0 constructs didn’t get bonus hit points, so these guys (being medium creatures) should actually have 20 hit points more than as they are currently listed! I’ll be adding this extra 20 hp into the math when determining CR.

Challenge Rating? Both are currently listed as 3. Unless they are terribly over-CRed as-is, they are most likely going to either remain the same or increase in CR because of the extra hit points. Just did the math, and they have increased to CR 5. nasty beasts, and the extra HD makes 'em tougher.

Construction? Sadly, no. Not even the update booklet has the requirements to make your own automatons.

Thanks to Darklord Xavez, we have construction stats!

Hammerer
CL 9th; Craft Construct; knowledge (architecture and engineering) or craft (metalworking of any kind) check (DC 20); Bull's Strength; Cost 11,000 gp + 880 XP; Cost 22,000 gp.

Pulverizer
CL 9th; Craft Construct; knowledge (architecture and engineering) or craft (metalworking of any kind) check (DC 20); Bull's Strength; Cost 6,000 gp + 480 XP; Cost 12,000 gp.

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Pulverizer
36 hp divided by 4.5 (3 HD): 8
Armor Class: 21 (+2)
Special Attacks: Sonic Shriek (+1)
Special Qualities: Blindsight 40 ft., construct traits, unreliable (+4)
Bonus Feats: None (+0)
15 divided by 3: 5
End Result: CR 5 Creature

Hammerer
47 hp divided by 4.5 (5 HD): 10.44 (about 10)
Armor Class: 21 (+2)
Special Attacks: None (+0)
Special Qualities: Construct traits, unreliable (+3)
Bonus Feats:
15 divided by 3: 5
End Result: CR 5 Creature

Coming Next Monday: Avolakia and Banshee