Habits that kill fun in a session.

[dsmiles]

Yeah, I think "critical fumble = miss + immediately end turn" is on the more reasonable side. Of course, critical fumbles for monsters are usually pretty comedic. After all, if you can't laugh at the bad guys, who can you laugh at?

[Claudius Maximus]

Yeah, I think "critical fumble = miss + immediately end turn" is on the more reasonable side.

It wasn't fun at all when I was playing D&D 4e and had to roll for every enemy I was attacking in my 25-square area attack. The odds of my big daily move doing nothing and possibly harming me were frequently around 50%.

Something that kind of bothered me about that DM - The DM who should be running a different edition/system:

This is the guy who forces scarcity, arbitrariness, and destitution into 4e, a game that is pretty much built around player entitlement. Or who otherwise goes against some basic assumptions of a system.

In his case it really felt like he wanted to be playing a nasty Gygaxian 2e game, which is a style I'm okay with, but I just kind of felt he should be playing 2e in that case (or even 3e can do that decently).

[jguy]

One of the players in our game is a very kind, older woman who is a very devote christian/catholic (I can't remember which). She has absolutely no problem with the Gods or that there are demons/devils along with angels. In fact, she most often plays either Paladins or Clerics. She's even played Warlocks!

I myself am an atheist, but I find playing Cleric/overly religious characters the most fun. When in a game setting there is actual proof the Gods are there, even being able to visit them and fight demons and evils in hell, it is much easier to be religious. At least for me anyway.

[dsmiles]

It wasn't fun at all when I was playing D&D 4e and had to roll for every enemy I was attacking in my 25-square area attack. The odds of my big daily move doing nothing and possibly harming me were frequently around 50%.

Something that kind of bothered me about that DM - The DM who should be running a different edition/system:

This is the guy who forces scarcity, arbitrariness, and destitution into 4e, a game that is pretty much built around player entitlement. Or who otherwise goes against some basic assumptions of a system.

In his case it really felt like he wanted to be playing a nasty Gygaxian 2e game, which is a style I'm okay with, but I just kind of felt he should be playing 2e in that case (or even 3e can do that decently).

In the 4e games that I run, one fumble doesn't negate an entire blast or burst attack. You'd still get to finish that blast or burst, then end your turn.

I run very gritty/lethal 4e games in an Iron Kingdoms-like setting where magical healing is rare and dangerous, and the only "resurrection" available is Raise Dead, and that's a very high level and very dangerous Arcane ritual. (Also, no deities, so no Divine power source, and therefore no Divine classes.)

Player entitlement not necessarily a good thing. I use the mechanics of 4e, but not that particular concept. (I feel that WotC has taken this sense of entitlement too far, and it's killing the game.) But I like the mechanics, so I use them. It's entirely possible to use the mechanics of a system, but not the "basic assumptions," and I tell my players in advance about my choice, and that they're free to leave at any point. Nobody's left (except the guy that's moving to Hawaii in a few weeks, and I don't blame him; it's the military's fault he got re-assigned).

[The Random NPC]

I do believe you ment to post in this thread.

[Titanium Fox]

I'd call the "1=auto-miss" enough penalty...the problem with critical fumbles is when DMs invent all sorts of ridiculous 'penalty tables' that in no way equally balance out simply dealing double or triple damage on a hit. I've seen everything from "provoke an AoO" to "drop your weapon" to (no lie) "auto-crit your nearest ally as the weapon flies out of your hands".

My general rule for this is that if there are other creatures (allied or not) in range, there's a chance to hit them. Roll D%, and then roll attack against that creature. Percentages are adjusted roughly based on how close and cover and all that jazz. You can still miss on the second hit off of a crit-fail though, so I think it's fair enough. It reflects that fact that accidents do happen on the battle field, and generally is only somewhere in the realm of a 1 - 2% chance of occurring.

[The Glyphstone]

My general rule for this is that if there are other creatures (allied or not) in range, there's a chance to hit them. Roll D%, and then roll attack against that creature. Percentages are adjusted roughly based on how close and cover and all that jazz. You can still miss on the second hit off of a crit-fail though, so I think it's fair enough. It reflects that fact that accidents do happen on the battle field, and generally is only somewhere in the realm of a 1 - 2% chance of occurring.

Who said anything about range? The incident I was thinking of was a barbarian with a greataxe who accidentally oneshot his own party wizard 50ft. behind him.

[The Glyphstone]

not completely it was more of my way of handling crazy plans of handling situations that werent ment to be handled the way the pcs went with. but i see your point it could fall into that catagory

It'd only belong here if your party was upset and angry at you for how you handled it.

[Alchemistmerlin]

Who said anything about range? The incident I was thinking of was a barbarian with a greataxe who accidentally oneshot his own party wizard 50ft. behind him.

Bwaaaaaahahaha

That's awesome!


Yeah, I got rid of "critical miss" because that splat-chance made my players less likely to become attached to their characters...which would mean less reaction when I kill them in horribly splattery ways.

[Douglas]

And then you get things like the Paladin crit-missing on his final futile last attack against the BBEG that's creaming him, and the fumble table coming up with "character and adjacent target both die." Yeah, sure, it made for a decent story, but it's just silly. Screwing up horribly in a bad situation should not turn into spontaneously fiat-killing an unbeatable enemy.

[Provengreil]

I've been asked that question before, and I usually reply with, "Why do you sit on your ass, watching large men in tight pants wearing pauldrons and helmets chase an oblong ball around a 100-yard length of grass for four hours every Sunday afternoon and Monday night?"

Or alternatively, "Why do you watch grown men, in oversized soap-box racers, drive at dangerous speeds and turn left for two hours every Sunday?"

It gives them pause, at the least. It's also hilarious when you see the faces they make as you say that.

these responses get even better if they like wrestling, and god help them if they like sumo.

[Traab]

OK, I don't get this. I consider myself a reasonably devout Christian, and while there is some stuff in DnD that I can understand my fellow Christians getting upset about, the existance of intelligent races besides humans isn't one of them.

Heh, I honestly dont see any reason why any devout christian would honestly have a problem with this. Its a game, its fiction, it isnt trying to convert anyone to the worship of anything. I just figured id carry out the objection to its craziest level. Its actually a common theme in various sci fi type stories, where some fundamentalist ultra conservative fire breathing denunciation of all things different declares that aliens are sent by the devil to confuse us because humans are the only real intelligent life since only we were made in gods image or whatever. There are several variations on the theme, I just thought id include the general part here.

[Titanium Fox]

Who said anything about range? The incident I was thinking of was a barbarian with a greataxe who accidentally oneshot his own party wizard 50ft. behind him.

I just point blank don't allow crap like this to happen. If a melee character crit-fails, he rolls percent to see if he hits anyone else next to him. None of this table bull.

Funnily enough, this resulted in an entire character personality. Kango the Butcher! His player had such ****ty luck with rolls regularly that when he arrived, his backstory was "I've never not been the only party member to walk out of a fight until today." The druid he flew in with ran like a *****.

[Yukitsu]

I hate those tables. I lost all my clothes in half the battles that had it. Now, you may be thinking this isn't as bad as say, dying, or killing a party member, but when you have some of the problems that come up with my characters, this is a bad thing.

[DontEatRawHagis]

He mentioned Drive...that's not a D&D core skill, so I presume it was a different system. Other systems actually have critical skill failures as a legitimate rule, remember.

Actually its the Cortex system for the Serenity RPG. There are a list of DCs, so if you wanted to do something that is relatively simple it goes to the Easy DC(roll of 3 or better), average is around 7. I rolled a 1 and a 2 with a d6 and d8.

Problem I have, whenever I roll it is almost always low numbers. There are people in my group who never roll less than a 14 on anything. This is a system that utilizes 2 dice for every roll(best you can do 3d12, standard starting out is usually 2d6).

[Honest Tiefling]

I hate those tables. I lost all my clothes in half the battles that had it. Now, you may be thinking this isn't as bad as say, dying, or killing a party member, but when you have some of the problems that come up with my characters, this is a bad thing.

Aren't you the one whose characters keep getting a little too much attention from the opposite sex?

[Yukitsu]

Aren't you the one whose characters keep getting a little too much attention from the opposite sex?

Only male characters. Female ones invariably get attacked on a random monster table, on open rolls, with an open table, with randomized, called targets by grapply tentacle monsters.

Other random statistical anomalies: Plane rides with 5% chance of encounter encounters: 10/10.

Traps found with rogues dedicated to trap finding: 6/20 something. (6 rolls that were not critical failures)

Critical fail chance when using diplomacy on opposite gender: 9/12

Lulz from the RP of these failures, guaranteed.

[Roga]

It might have been mentioned but:

The "Can't I make a reflex save?" guy
This guy wants to make a reflex save for almost anything that should involve armor class. Shot at by an Arrow? "can't I make a reflex save?" Bonus points if they've been playing for years and still ask this.

I had a player that insisted that critical hits could be negated with reflex saves.

The "one skill is as good as the other" guy
This guy wants to use his Craft: Alchemy to make a dress, or craft: Armor Smith to make a boat. Alternatively if he failed a Knowledge Arcana roll to remember important traits of some magical beast, he'll want to try again with Knowledge Religion, and then Knowledge Dungeoneering. No, Magical Beasts is Arcana, any info the other knowledges would give you is fringe at best.

The player inspiring this one played a cleric of some God of Secrets and forbidden knowledge. And he insisted that because of his god he could make Knowledge Religion rolls for everything under the sun.

[Traab]

It might have been mentioned but:

The "Can't I make a reflex save?" guy
This guy wants to make a reflex save for almost anything that should involve armor class. Shot at by an Arrow? "can't I make a reflex save?" Bonus points if they've been playing for years and still ask this.

I had a player that insisted that critical hits could be negated with reflex saves.

The "one skill is as good as the other" guy
This guy wants to use his Craft: Alchemy to make a dress, or craft: Armor Smith to make a boat. Alternatively if he failed a Knowledge Arcana roll to remember important traits of some magical beast, he'll want to try again with Knowledge Religion, and then Knowledge Dungeoneering. No, Magical Beasts is Arcana, any info the other knowledges would give you is fringe at best.

The player inspiring this one played a cleric of some God of Secrets and forbidden knowledge. And he insisted that because of his god he could make Knowledge Religion rolls for everything under the sun.

You know what might have been interesting? If you took his secret knowledge religion roll and applied to to creating some sort of fluff background info like how these creatures were first created, or the knowledge that the displacer beast is oddly allergic to rutabagas. When he complains just say, "Hey, your god is one of SECRET information, not useful information. Displacer beasts try very hard to hide their allergies! And until now, noone was aware that glowing green oozes evolved from regular oozes that were hit by magic spells with a bright light effect and survived."

[DontEatRawHagis]

The "one skill is as good as the other" guy
This guy wants to use his Craft: Alchemy to make a dress, or craft: Armor Smith to make a boat. Alternatively if he failed a Knowledge Arcana roll to remember important traits of some magical beast, he'll want to try again with Knowledge Religion, and then Knowledge Dungeoneering. No, Magical Beasts is Arcana, any info the other knowledge would give you is fringe at best.

The player inspiring this one played a cleric of some God of Secrets and forbidden knowledge. And he insisted that because of his god he could make Knowledge Religion rolls for everything under the sun.

Best I could say about the whole God of secrets is, it is not secret or forbidden knowledge. Normal people who have studied the subject know it and probably will tell you if you ask them(not that you know who they are).

If he does ask for divine intervention make the information completely useless, "Vecna sometimes picks at his empty eye socket when no one is looking".

[Traab]

Now, if there was some sort of god of UNKNOWN knowledge, then you could make a case for the check to work. "Hey, I dont know it, hence its unknown to me, and my god should be able to fill me in!"

[Honest Tiefling]

You know, things aren't going to stay secret if every Joe, Aeris and Bob can sign up for your clergy, take the preliminary training and access to all secrets. People would just go through the holy lectures and remain a priest for about a week before quitting.

Oh no no, you have to earn the right to ask information, and then he has to yanno, call up his god with the proper spell. You can't just wave holy symbols around and expect it to work. That would be like waving your cellphone around and thinking you could get the Queen of England on the other line by doing so.

[The Glyphstone]

Now, if there was some sort of god of UNKNOWN knowledge, then you could make a case for the check to work. "Hey, I dont know it, hence its unknown to me, and my god should be able to fill me in!"

Yeah, but a God of Unknown Knowledge could never reveal any secrets, because anything he tells you becomes known, and thus he weakens himself.

[Shadowknight12]

Yeah, but a God of Unknown Knowledge could never reveal any secrets, because anything he tells you becomes known, and thus he weakens himself.

Vecna would like a word with you.

[Trellan]

The "Can't I make a reflex save?" guy
This guy wants to make a reflex save for almost anything that should involve armor class. Shot at by an Arrow? "can't I make a reflex save?" Bonus points if they've been playing for years and still ask this.

This annoys me so much. Even more when they declare it confidently as a fact ("don't worry, guys, the BBEG didn't actually hit me. I just rolled a 25 on my reflex save") after I have told them repeatedly (sometimes as little as one round before) that it doesn't work that way. Apparently the act of asking and being told no just becomes too laborious, so they decide to take game mechanics into their own hands. Of course, cue dramatics when I tell them no once again. I have two players that do this all the freaking time, and it bothers me to no end.

[big teej]

This annoys me so much. Even more when they declare it confidently as a fact ("don't worry, guys, the BBEG didn't actually hit me. I just rolled a 25 on my reflex save") after I have told them repeatedly (sometimes as little as one round before) that it doesn't work that way. Apparently the act of asking and being told no just becomes too laborious, so they decide to take game mechanics into their own hands. Of course, cue dramatics when I tell them no once again. I have two players that do this all the freaking time, and it bothers me to no end.

I have a player like this. he even tries to tell other players "it's cool, just roll ur reflex to dodge out of the way"

he rarely gets through that sentence before I say

"no, the fact dexterity applies to AC already accounts for your ability to dodge an attack, it doesn't work that way."

[Traab]

Yeah, but a God of Unknown Knowledge could never reveal any secrets, because anything he tells you becomes known, and thus he weakens himself.

HMPH! You obviously dont know how the God of Unknown Knowledge becomes stronger! (Which just made him stronger right there) His priests are tasked with discovering all knowledge they can, then destroying all traces of it, so it is only possessed by his followers. The more knowledge that is possessed by his clergy and noone else, the stronger he becomes. (Oh crap, I may have weakened him a bit by revealing that. Oh well.)

[archon_huskie]

HMPH! You obviously dont know how the God of Unknown Knowledge becomes stronger! (Which just made him stronger right there) His priests are tasked with discovering all knowledge they can, then destroying all traces of it, so it is only possessed by his followers. The more knowledge that is possessed by his clergy and noone else, the stronger he becomes. (Oh crap, I may have weakened him a bit by revealing that. Oh well.)

I don't know what you are talking about!

[Traab]

I don't know what you are talking about!

I just thought I should mention, im an excellent drunken master of the art of BS. I wonder if I would have more fun playing a game, or driving my DM up the wall till he cant argue against my "logic" and lets me do whatever crazy thing im trying to justify. For future reference, if I ever play a game with any of you as DM, the more detailed my background info, chances are im setting up some tricky future abilities.

[Seb Wiers]

My general rule for this is that if there are other creatures (allied or not) in range, there's a chance to hit them. Roll D%, and then roll attack against that creature. Percentages are adjusted roughly based on how close and cover and all that jazz. You can still miss on the second hit off of a crit-fail though, so I think it's fair enough. It reflects that fact that accidents do happen on the battle field, and generally is only somewhere in the realm of a 1 - 2% chance of occurring.

By those rules, it seems those accidents are more likely to happen if you are more skilled (IE, more likely to hit with a normal attack), since the "critical miss" results in (potentially) making a new attack against an undesired target using normal attack rules.

In general, I HATE rules that have you make an "accidental attack" the same as your normal attack. If its an accident, you obviously are not using your full skill level- in fact, the better your skills, the more likely you'd be to check the blow at the last second.